A Metrics Breakdown of Patterson, Allen, Hopkins and Bailey

[xXwarXx]

Your pulling details into this convo that have nothing to do with the topic, but to sit here and say he has great hands and he's shown this in multiple facets of the game is ridiculous. I've watched everything you continue to mention.

Yet you still seem to overlook a very simple fact. RARELY does he catch deep balls, and when often does he drops them. RARELY do you even see bray look at him deep. Why is that? It's because he can't run a lot of routes and make the catches.

If he had good hands in multiple routes, he would be running those routes and catching a larger variety of passes, but he doesn't, because he cant. And thats why you mostly see 2-3 catch games from him throughout college.

When you watch guys like patton, Bailey, Allen, there all over the field, running a million of different routes, and sealing the ball up on almost all of them. Patterson, not so much, IMO the biggest reason for that, is his hands. With his athletic ability, he could learn to run other routes, but if he can't catch running them, what's the point?

 

[NUGap]

Your pulling details into this convo that have nothing to do with the topic, but to sit here and say he has great hands and he's shown this in multiple facets of the game is ridiculous. I've watched everything you continue to mention.

Yet you still seem to overlook a very simple fact. RARELY does he catch deep balls, and when often does he drops them. RARELY do you even see bray look at him deep. Why is that? It's because he can't run a lot of routes and make the catches.

If he had good hands in multiple routes, he would be running those routes and catching a larger variety of passes, but he doesn't, because he cant. And thats why you mostly see 2-3 catch games from him throughout college.

When you watch guys like patton, Bailey, Allen, there all over the field, running a million of different routes, and sealing the ball up on almost all of them. Patterson, not so much, IMO the biggest reason for that, is his hands. With his athletic ability, he could learn to run other routes, but if he can't catch running them, what's the point?

I've stayed out of this conversation, because there's so many other things to talk about with Patterson than this one attribute. But, dude, you can't use Allen as an example of catching balls all over the field when he's the only receiver who caught less deep balls than Patterson and had a worse distribution of catches across the field than Patterson. To be fair, I have Patterson's "average drop yardage" at 27 yards. Which is to say, yes he dropped some deep balls - but he didn't drop them really anywhere else. If you only have to coach a guy on how to catch this one specific pass, you're not in bad shape.

 

[ckparrothead]

Your pulling details into this convo that have nothing to do with the topic, but to sit here and say he has great hands and he's shown this in multiple facets of the game is ridiculous. I've watched everything you continue to mention.

Yet you still seem to overlook a very simple fact. RARELY does he catch deep balls, and when often does he drops them. RARELY do you even see bray look at him deep. Why is that? It's because he can't run a lot of routes and make the catches.

If he had good hands in multiple routes, he would be running those routes and catching a larger variety of passes, but he doesn't, because he cant. And thats why you mostly see 2-3 catch games from him throughout college.

When you watch guys like patton, Bailey, Allen, there all over the field, running a million of different routes, and sealing the ball up on almost all of them. Patterson, not so much, IMO the biggest reason for that, is his hands. With his athletic ability, he could learn to run other routes, but if he can't catch running them, what's the point?

There's a LOT wrong with this post.

1. Are you actually arguing against details? Who needs facts when you've got a good opinion (based on nothing)? Is that what this has become?

2. Rarely does he catch deep passes? I just linked you three of them. I agree with you that he wasn't often targeted deep but your reason for that is misguided and overly simplistic. With the combination of Hunter and Patterson with a big arm like Bray's throwing the football, Tennessee faced a lot of shell coverage. You'll notice that the percentage of Justin Hunter's targets that were deep was also low, a lot lower than DeAndre Hopkins, Terrance Williams and Markus Wheaton. It wasn't a matter of one guy being trusted deep a lot more than the other. It was a matter of the coverage dictating where Bray went with the football.

3. You're really confusing hands with route running and absorption of the offense. The ability to run routes dependably and make sight adjustments were the primary reason behind any lack of variety (real or perceived) in what kinds of routes he ran. Cordarrelle Patterson was in his FIRST YEAR with the team. No other receiver being compared here was at such a disadvantage. And if you study first year production from JUCO receivers as I have, you know that Patterson's production was about average for guys that went on to successful NFL careers (Isaac Bruce, Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Keyshawn Johnson, Stevie Johnson). Actually above average. There's a reason Derek Dooley stated that he'd never come across a player that made that big an impact that quickly.

4. Yes the guy has very good natural hands. You can see it in his tape, if you really actually look. There's a reason why he caught the ball a lot more cleanly than Robert Woods when the two competed against one another recently on the JUGS machine in the All Star Football Challenge. There is one type of catch that I have QUESTIONS on, the over the shoulder catch. But anyone that says they have ANSWERS on that question, is BSing.

 

[xXwarXx]

I've stayed out of this conversation, because there's so many other things to talk about with Patterson than this one attribute. But, dude, you can't use Allen as an example of catching balls all over the field when he's the only receiver who caught less deep balls than Patterson and had a worse distribution of catches across the field than Patterson. To be fair, I have Patterson's "average drop yardage" at 27 yards. Which is to say, yes he dropped some deep balls - but he didn't drop them really anywhere else. If you only have to coach a guy on how to catch this one specific pass, you're not in bad shape.

LoL don't nit pick my comments into what you wamt them to be, and don't bring in stats that only show a small part of the story. If Allen had played across from Justin hunter he would be a top 10 pick. Allen lined up at every spot there is for WRs amd ran a HUGE variety of routes.

I NEVER said Allen was a great deep ball threat, you made that comment up. On top of that my comparrison of Allen, pat ton, and Bailey to Patterson, was that ALL of them do far more than Patterson does as far as being a polished wr goes.

Go watch any Patterson game tape, it's the Same routes over and over, this is college, not the NFL, why didn't he do anything new as the year went on? all this natural ability, but still running tne same crap over and over, 2-3 catches a game in college. For the 12th pick in the draft?

To me, Patterson is jacoby jones at best. Not a bad player, but not worth the 12th pick either. Jones was good at what he was good at, and thats it. And still can't catch a ball without using his body to save his life.

 

[ckparrothead]

LoL don't nit pick my comments into what you wamt them to be, and don't bring in stats that only show a small part of the story. If Allen had played across from Justin hunter he would be a top 10 pick. Allen lined up at every spot there is for WRs amd ran a HUGE variety of routes.

I NEVER said Allen was a great deep ball threat, you made that comment up. On top of that my comparrison of Allen, pat ton, and Bailey to Patterson, was that ALL of them do far more than Patterson does as far as being a polished wr goes.

Go watch any Patterson game tape, it's the Same routes over and over, this is college, not the NFL, why didn't he do anything new as the year went on? all this natural ability, but still running tne same crap over and over, 2-3 catches a game in college. For the 12th pick in the draft?

To me, Patterson is jacoby jones at best. Not a bad player, but not worth the 12th pick either. Jones was good at what he was good at, and thats it. And still can't catch a ball without using his body to save his life.

I don't understand this argument style.

"Stop throwing facts and evidence at me because my opinion is right no matter what the facts and evidence say and I'll just keep saying it louder and that's how you know how right I am."

 

[NUGap]

LoL don't nit pick my comments into what you wamt them to be, and don't bring in stats that only show a small part of the story. If Allen had played across from Justin hunter he would be a top 10 pick. Allen lined up at every spot there is for WRs amd ran a HUGE variety of routes.

I NEVER said Allen was a great deep ball threat, you made that comment up. On top of that my comparrison of Allen, pat ton, and Bailey to Patterson, was that ALL of them do far more than Patterson does as far as being a polished wr goes.

Go watch any Patterson game tape, it's the Same routes over and over, this is college, not the NFL, why didn't he do anything new as the year went on? all this natural ability, but still running tne same crap over and over, 2-3 catches a game in college. For the 12th pick in the draft?

To me, Patterson is jacoby jones at best. Not a bad player, but not worth the 12th pick either. Jones was good at what he was good at, and thats it. And still can't catch a ball without using his body to save his life.

First off, I've watched Patterson and charted every game of his (limited completions makes it easy) and I have more data on him than you'll ever know (or is posted), so let's not pretend like I'm ill informed here.

You also said "Allen is running all over the field", that to me implies that he's running...all over the field. The charting statistics indicate that he's running in a very specific part of the field. Mostly screens and 1-5 yard routes, with some 6-10 yard routes as well. Maybe you can call that nitpicking, but you were wrong so I thought I'd help you out. I didn't have any malintent when I said it, your point on Patton and Bailey was right...they do have a wide variety of catches. However, if you're going to argue you better get your facts right and don't write things that are incorrect.

The point of my post was just to provide a little bit of insight, I didn't even say whether I liked Patterson or not. Frankly your opinion doesn't matter to me, it's not going to change my evaluation or the stats so it's not even worth arguing. Everyone has their own evaluations, in the end someone is going to be right and someone is going to be wrong. That's the nature of the game, might as well let it play out like it may.

 

[ckparrothead]

Only high school but here's another over the shoulder catch of his in stride...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EArUSFokOE&feature=player_detailpage#t=35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EArUSFokOE&feature=player_detailpage#t=51s

And from JUCO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSa4AiH-4pY&feature=player_detailpage#t=156s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSa4AiH-4pY&feature=player_detailpage#t=193s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSa4AiH-4pY&feature=player_detailpage#t=231s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSa4AiH-4pY&feature=player_detailpage#t=349s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CvKc2zfDP5Y#t=108s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G91cKcnD8A4&feature=player_detailpage#t=0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pquKbyv2lxw#t=135s

Only relevant because of the theory that he can't do it. The hyperbole and exaggeration make this stuff relevant.

 

[hoops]

i think pattersons hands are a little suspect also...and denario alexanders knees are held together by chicken wire...

 

[xXwarXx]

I don't understand this argument style.

"Stop throwing facts and evidence at me because my opinion is right no matter what the facts and evidence say and I'll just keep saying it louder and that's how you know how right I am."

I never said any of that, stop trying to make me look childish to make your arguments look stronger.

An example of details that have nothing to do with the conversation was that you mentioned a corners 40 time, that has zip to do with pattersons catching ability. But your need to push Patterson on all Miami fans makes you constantly try to show how great he is at everything.

Until now you've done a fine job of ot, but to sit Here and make it sound like this guy has good hands, and is good at catching is just ridiculous. Hopefully we can continue to debate this like adults.

 

[xXwarXx]

First off, I've watched Patterson and charted every game of his (limited completions makes it easy) and I have more data on him than you'll ever know (or is posted), so let's not pretend like I'm ill informed here.

You also said "Allen is running all over the field", that to me implies that he's running...all over the field. The charting statistics indicate that he's running in a very specific part of the field. Mostly screens and 1-5 yard routes, with some 6-10 yard routes as well. Maybe you can call that nitpicking, but you were wrong so I thought I'd help you out. I didn't have any malintent when I said it, your point on Patton and Bailey was right...they do have a wide variety of catches. However, if you're going to argue you better get your facts right and don't write things that are incorrect.

The point of my post was just to provide a little bit of insight, I didn't even say whether I liked Patterson or not. Frankly your opinion doesn't matter to me, it's not going to change my evaluation or the stats so it's not even worth arguing. Everyone has their own evaluations, in the end someone is going to be right and someone is going to be wrong. That's the nature of the game, might as well let it play out like it may.

I mever said your stats weren't good or that I didn't like them, I simply stated what you said in your own post, that they don't tell the whole story. On top of that they are based on a %. You can't really compare stats of Allen and Patterson in that way, Patterson is 2-3 catch player in single coverage, Allen is a 7-8 catch guy who is often double amd triple teamed. Schematically, the offense has no choice but to run more screens to him to try to get him in space.

Sorry for the confusion, Patterson debates get heated man... :)

 

[ITS!MATEO]

*steals the attention whore spotlight*

I was high on Patterson even before Hoops and Ck


Thougt that would fit in with the arguing in ere js lol

 

[hoops]

ha ha...the run ater the catch with patterson is filthy...but there's a lot of buyer beware there for me...i'd take keenan allen over him if i had the choice...one year of d1 production...i wonder about his ability to win in routes at the next level...i have questions about is he a natural hands catcher...he doesn't pluck the football out of the air pillow soft to me...looks like a boom or bust guy to me

doesn't strike me as the smartest football player when it comes to reading coverage and setting up dbs...likely gets a gm long term stability or gets a gm fired kind of guy...

 

[finfan54]

Im still stuck with whats the difference between Allen and say someone like Chris Harper as far as how well they will translate to the pros? Not saying Allen is not worthy, but why is someone else not? WR is deep IMO. DEEEEEEEEEP!

 

[hoops]

allen runs quality routes and most importantly separates in and out of cuts for a big wr...he's got some suddenness to him...some burst...quality hips...he'll run mid 4.5's or better and barring serious skeletons in the closet be a top 20 pick...very polished ready to contribute from the jump win wr...underutilized and underproductive at cal...had he been at the senior bowl his size would have been apparent as would his suddenness and physical abilities...top wr on my board...but an underclassmen...

i like allen, bailey, woods, patton the most...wheaton falls in around #6 to 8 range for me...hopkins lacks long speed and scares me i don't think he'll get off coverage down the field...justin hunter has elite tools but not much polish right now...in 2 years could be filthy...patterson is boom or bust...if we take him i hope for the best pretty much all i can say...terence williams can get vertical when he's clean but struggles to get off press to me...runs good routes...needs to use his hands more and get more physical...

keep in mind we need smart wrs for this system...guys that understand coverage and db leverage...if a guys a dope or plays dumb i don't see the fit...

 

[2413fanphins]

Oh cute, its a ryan mallettesque argument all over again!!!!! Lmao