A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E is why Jay is the starter.

[WharfRat]

Originally posted by fin-atic
I think what jetsucksr is trying to say is this:

Everyone gives Jay credit for how well he played before his injury. No one wants to remember how average to poor he played after he returned.

No one here feels like Jay has put together one consistent year. He has never performed over the course of a year better than average.

Until he does there will be the detractors out there and understandably so.

I am a detractor but I feel better knowing that Griese is in camp. Not because he willl be the answer but because Jay has always played better when he is competing. So I think Griese will keep him honest.

Another factor is Jay's health. His "gutsy" play causes him to take a whole lot of punishment. He just doesn't have the physique for it.

The one thing that scares me about Jay is you never know when he isn't going to show up. It seems like when its crunch time (Minny, NE, Playoffs previous years) he just doesn't show up. He doesn't always hurts us, he just doesn't make the plays we need to win. I have noticed that winnning QBs do that. The Favres, Elways, Marinos, etc. MAKE plays when the season is on t he line. If Jay can do that this year, he will win fans over. He will get more than his share of chances with teams stacking the defenses against the run.

If Jay has the year he should this year, I will be the first one on here singing his praises and proclaiming how wrong I was. It will be the tastiest crow I ever ate.

Originally posted by MDFINFAN


JSSr. While I don't think Jays the greatest QB that ever lived, I don't think he's the worst either..I think he possess as much savy as Dilfer, and B. Johnson. I think he's managing this O well..The only knock is his deep ball, which I can't understand, because he hit CC in his rookie year with it so well. But he was quietly having a good year up to his injury. You can't add the 6 games he miss and speculate that he would have gone down..actually, the Denver game was the best he'd played up to that point last year. If anything, you may say he could have kept improving. He had developed a confidence with McMicheals, threw well to ward, and the 3rd down and redzone production was great. The team was avg 27+ points at the time. One might of thought he was coming into his own finally..Even in the losses to Minn..he hit C. Carter in the hands for what would have been the winning TD. That's not his fault...In the NE game, he had his team up 11 points with 4 minutes to go...the loss, I don't blame him..He did miss an open McKnight that would have capped that game..only real mistake I saw him make..these 2 games were after the injury...O yea, he did help manage a good game against Oakland, hit some beautiful passes to CC, for a guy who's had to learn 3 offenses in 5 years...Jags, Gailey's and now Norv's, I think he does a remarkable job. I cannot defend his arm strength, which I think is his greatest weakness, other than that, I think his decision making is surperb..If he had the arm strenght to put the ball where his mind tells him, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Other than that..what other problems do you see with him..I must have missed your earlier posts concerning him.

Two excellent posts... put them together, and it explains why I'm "on the fence" about Jay.

 

[Dolfan984]

Jay has 1 td and 7 ints in the postseason for two reasons.

His INT in the 2001 playoffs was off of James McKnight's shoulder.

Jay threw the other 6 INTs during our Colts playoff win, and the Raiders loss, but he was playing with a torn rotator cuff, and it was in 2000. Get the picture, he's improved since 2000.

 

[ohall]

Originally posted by jetssuckSr



I would think the "best part" would be winning a SB.


Let's say he doesn't and continues to handcuff this offense, will we "haters" get an apology? Or more excuses?








JS

Why would anyone? Jay has proven you all wrong for the last 3-years I have seen no apology from you Jay haters.

Oliver...

 

[jetssuckSr]

Hey MD, while I am of a different opinion, good job of making your point. I'll go over it and and hopefully answer your question as to my views at the same time.

JSSr. While I don't think Jays the greatest QB that ever lived, I don't think he's the worst either..I think he possess as much savy as Dilfer, and B. Johnson. I think he's managing this O well..The only knock is his deep ball, which I can't understand, because he hit CC in his rookie year with it so well. But he was quietly having a good year up to his injury. You can't add the 6 games he miss and speculate that he would have gone down..actually, the Denver game was the best he'd played up to that point last year. If anything, you may say he could have kept improving. He had developed a confidence with McMicheals, threw well to ward, and the 3rd down and redzone production was great. The team was avg 27+ points at the time. One might of thought he was coming into his own finally..Even in the losses to Minn..he hit C. Carter in the hands for what would have been the winning TD. That's not his fault...In the NE game, he had his team up 11 points with 4 minutes to go...the loss, I don't blame him..He did miss an open McKnight that would have capped that game..only real mistake I saw him make..these 2 games were after the injury...O yea, he did help manage a good game against Oakland, hit some beautiful passes to CC, for a guy who's had to learn 3 offenses in 5 years...Jags, Gailey's and now Norv's, I think he does a remarkable job. I cannot defend his arm strength, which I think is his greatest weakness, other than that, I think his decision making is surperb..If he had the arm strenght to put the ball where his mind tells him, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Other than that..what other problems do you see with him..I must have missed your earlier posts concerning him.

JSSr. While I don't think Jays the greatest QB that ever lived, I don't think he's the worst either..I think he possess as much savy as Dilfer, and B. Johnson.

I'm not saying he's the worst but IMO we need someone better, someone who can't be described or defended with the sentence " I don't think he's the worst either".

He may be as "saavy" as Dilfer and Johnson but they are better passers and therein lies the problem. There are times when saavy and toughness will not compensate for a lack of natural talent.

I think he's managing this O well..The only knock is his deep ball, which I can't understand, because he hit CC in his rookie year with it so well.

Firstly, I've come to hate the word "managing", as in "managerial QB". QB is far too important of a position to be satisfied with managing, the word itself reeks of mediocrity IMO.

And I disagree with both points, I don't see that he is managing this offense well, in fact I see him as the weak link in the chain, that only knock you speak of has and will continue to handcuff this offense. I see no QB in the entire league that benefits more from his RB, RW provides him with best play-fake opportunity for a QB that I have seen in some time, plenty of chances to go down field and soften the opposition.

As far as CC's first yr, I thought he should have had more and would have with a better passer, I think the same could be said for every WR we have.

the Denver game was the best he'd played up to that point last year. If anything, you may say he could have kept improving. He had developed a confidence with McMicheals, threw well to ward, and the 3rd down and redzone production was great. The team was avg 27+ points at the time. One might of thought he was coming into his own finally..Even in the losses to Minn..he hit C. Carter in the hands for what would have been the winning TD. That's not his fault...In the NE game, he had his team up 11 points with 4 minutes to go...the loss, I don't blame him..He did miss an open McKnight that would have capped that game..only real mistake I saw him make..these 2 games were after the injury...O yea, he did help manage a good game against Oakland, hit some beautiful passes to CC,

In Denver, Jay's only real contibution to the win was his last two, poorly thrown but caught passes. If not for two Int's by our D in the fourth qtr, we would have been blown out. IMO the biggest factors of those last two throws weren't even JF, they were McMike making a circus catch of a poorly thrown ball on 3rd and 10 and Mobley's decision on the following pass to try for the INT instead of just batting it down. Was I happy those balls were completed? Delighted as hell! I just wasn't as impressed with JF as I was with others concerning the comeback. What about Mare? He took a beating last yr and I can't remember hearing too much praise for the guy for hitting the 50+ yd FG to win the game.

In Minny the scoring chances that were missed in the 1st half sealed the deal on that game, if you don't take advantage of opportunities to score and score early, it's hard to beat a high powered, talented O like the Vikes, especially in Minny.

In Oakland Jay did play decently but against a secondary full of BU's, the Raiders have a good secondary and if they would have been there that day I have little doubt that JF would not have faired as well.

I cannot defend his arm strength, which I think is his greatest weakness, other than that, I think his decision making is surperb..If he had the arm strenght to put the ball where his mind tells him, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think it's arm srtength AND accuracy, his inablity throw to certain parts of the field without the pass becoming a 'jump ball'. When you can't throw to certain parts of the field, that excludes part of the playbook and the amount of decisions to be made. Worst of all it limits the what you can do with what could be a high powered offense.

for a guy who's had to learn 3 offenses in 5 years...Jags, Gailey's and now Norv's, I think he does a remarkable job.

I disagree, Gailey's offense was actually better suited to JF than Norv's is and if Gailey hadn't scaled his offense back andclosed some of the playbook, we wouldn't be having this conversation because JF was on his way to INTing himself out of a job. After the Jet's game Chan shut things down and Jay's play stabilized, though never being any more than average. Problem with this is same problem we now face, we need more than that from the position. I just don't see where JF has the talent to do so.













JS

 

[GreenFin]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!
Can't we all just get along????
All I know is I want the best guy under center. Griese has had one Pro Bowl year but hasn't done much since.
Jay doesn't put up great numbers but he wins.
To me..they both have something to prove which for us Dolphin fans is a BIG plus. That means they are both gonna be giving their all.
I think the biggest reason this whole Fiedler/Griese thing is getting so crazy is that we know what we have with Jay but some of us are curious to see how things would be with Brian. I gotta admit, I'm intrigued by him because I hear the same things being said about him as I heard being said about Ricky last year. Shy, anti-social, a malcontent... and look how things turned out.
But I think we all need to take a deep breath and remember one thing. Wether you are a Fiedlerfanatic or Jayhater or Grieselover or Brianbasher...THEY ARE BOTH ON THE SAME TEAM... The team we are hear writing about.....
OUR MIAMI DOLPHINS!!!
So please guys...give the bashing (for both guy) a rest. They BOTH need our support...whoever is starting in the end.

GO FINS!!!

 

[jetssuckSr]

Well then you're missing a good debate IMO Greenfin, those of us actually involved in this debate are doing so in a civil manner, arguing our points of view. I find it not only healthy but interesting as well. I also think those involved are enjoying themselves and isn't that why we're here?








JS

 

[ZOD]

Jetssucksr,

Your last post is the best description/argument of why you don't like Jay Fiedler.

It's also the same reasons that I don't mind having Jay at the helm this year.

Your right. The Qb position is one the most important positions on the field. That's why I'm glad Jay is at the helm. With Jay I know that we have a chance because he is a "managerial" QB.

We had a 2-4 episode last year where we gave the "stud in camp" a chance. Would you like to give another stud a chance?

If given the choice I'd take anyone of the top 5 rated QB's from last year. Sure, it would be great. But we don't have that choice. The only choice we had this year was at pick number 50 something. Did you see a Qb that could step up and replace our managerial QB ? On that note let's list all of our choices.

Rosenfels, Lucas, Huard, and now Griese. Griese will get his opportunity when Jay's injury comes. It will happen. At the end of this season we will know our future QB. So what's the beef ?

Is it the miss of the pick of Trent Green ? That's all hindsight now. Our coaches and our fans (including you) did not think that we were a "rebuild team" so they filled a need with Fletcher. That combined with the fact that Green was still and unproven draft pick made the a decent one.

I think we all can agree that if given the choice we would have a better QB than Fiedler. The thing is that team has went out and gotten players that they feel could unseat him and they haven't. Lucas had an outstanding fill in for an injured Testaverde. Griese has had one good year. Their trying and that's all they can do.

Do you want to give Ricky Williams back and receive our number 1 in trade?

One other thing: Where in sam hell did you see an open playbook from Chan Gailey ? It certainly was not in Pittsburgh.

I hated it. I guess if you love the five yard pass and the runs up the middle it would be your cup of tea though. I'm surprised he didn't break out the wishbone formation.

 

[GreenFin]

I actually agree with a lot you have said jetssuckSr. I also agree with a lot of what the other guys are saying. My only problem is that the same stuff is getting regurgitated over and over. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything cuz it's all been said a hundred times already. The point is, no matter what I say, you say or anyone else says...it's still the coaches decision and it'll just have to play itself out one the field.
I guess I just don't like Dolphin fans agruing about who they think is better while bringing up the shortcomings of the other. They are both Maimi Dolphins. It's just getting old and I wish people would give it a rest already.
But I guess I'm a hypocrite cuz here I am typing away about a subject i wish would disappear.

Anyway.. GO FINS!!
I honestly believe that this IS an open competition and if Griese is a better fit, he will play when he's ready.

 

[jetssuckSr]

Hey Zod cool name, however just in case the thought crosses your mind I can tell you from past experience that "I want you to kneel before Zod" is NOT a very succesful pick-up line.


.

Your right. The Qb position is one the most important positions on the field. That's why I'm glad Jay is at the helm. With Jay I know that we have a chance because he is a "managerial" QB.

It seems you like the 'managerial QB' philosophy whereas I hate it with a passion, IMO it's flawed because no matter what there WILL be times when you will more than that.

Dilfer?

Managerial yes but unlike JF he was able to pull it off. Why? He made fewer mistakes, had argubaly the best D in history and unlike JF the arm and talent to go deep if neccessary.

Brady?

Managerial? The guy isn't great but he can throw 20 times in a row. What would happen if JF threw 20 times in a row? He's a focal point of their offense, you can hardly call him managerial.

Johnson?

A pocket passer built for this offense, with past success running it. And when he was running he was NOT a managerial QB. For TB last yr he played on a skeletal offense with an average RB. He didn't have the luxury of being 'managerial'.

None of the above did when it counted, I'm telling you guys, that philosophy is flawed.

We had a 2-4 episode last year where we gave the "stud in camp" a chance. Would you like to give another stud a chance?

If given the choice I'd take anyone of the top 5 rated QB's from last year. Sure, it would be great. But we don't have that choice. The only choice we had this year was at pick number 50 something. Did you see a Qb that could step up and replace our managerial QB ? On that note let's list all of our choices.

Rosenfels, Lucas, Huard, and now Griese. Griese will get his opportunity when Jay's injury comes. It will happen. At the end of this season we will know our future QB. So what's the beef ?

Is it the miss of the pick of Trent Green ? That's all hindsight now. Our coaches and our fans (including you) did not think that we were a "rebuild team" so they filled a need with Fletcher. That combined with the fact that Green was still and unproven draft pick made the a decent one.

I think we all can agree that if given the choice we would have a better QB than Fiedler. The thing is that team has went out and gotten players that they feel could unseat him and they haven't. Lucas had an outstanding fill in for an injured Testaverde. Griese has had one good year. Their trying and that's all they can do.

Sure, I'll give whoever we have on the roster a chance, why? I see nothing to lose, after three yrs of watching JF and this flawed experiment destined to fail, I see nothing to lose. I've felt this way since yr one and IMO the fact it's dragged on this long is ridiculous.

Ray Lucas? I wanted to see him play when JF was struggling in 2001, why? Again I felt we had nothing to lose by seeing what he had to offer, if he sucked then he's gone and we fill his spot on the roster in 2002 with someone better, someone with at least more upside. Personally, I was furious when we signed him, especially after reading DW quoted as saying that with his addition the team was 'set' at the position. When translated meant "No, we will not be selecting Brees or any other QB prospect worth bringing into camp this year".

This leads to your next point, and IMO another flawed way of thinking by the staff. What has became patentedly known as the "Well, what can we do?" excuse.

And remember it's only "hindsight" if you were wrong and you can't put myself and many others as well in the category.

I've wanted a QB taken on the first day of the draft since before Marino retired, many have. Fletch? Please don't get me started :yell:

Notice OTHER teams aquiring QB's? Getting good FA pick-ups like Green and Johnson, drafting solid prospects in rds higher than the SIXTH? It CAN be done, it takes effort but above all you have to believe it's a need. DW, like yourself and many others here are still banking that the position is fine and that THIS IS THE YEAR! that JF shuts-up his doubters, the 'haters' as we're affectionately known:evil: :)

BG? This deal was a no-brainer for both parties, best op available for both at the time. BG if healthy and once the rust comes off, has a good chance of taking this job with nothing more than better accuracy. But he's no sure thing by a long-shot, especially given that, like JF, he has an injury history as well.

Do you want to give Ricky Williams back and receive our number 1 in trade?

Not really, they don't want him back already do they? lol

One other thing: Where in sam hell did you see an open playbook from Chan Gailey ? It certainly was not in Pittsburgh.

I should re-phrase that, Chan had to take out 'half of the pages of the 'half' of playbook he was letting him run. And no I don't like Chan's style of offense, I prefer Turner's much more.

But I also know that Chan is well respected as an O coordinator in the league and above all I know that he got a bum-rap as a scape-goat for JF and DW when he left. Posters blasting him for his bland playcalling and for (and this kills me) "holding JF back".

Yeah he held him back, held him back and saved his career by doing so. I was pissed that he held him back, holding him back wasn't gonna give us what we needed on offense with our ground game sputtering. It was another no lose situation where we could give JF the op to either earn a spot or plane fare home. Instead DW played it cautiously, depended to much on the D and........

Sound familiar?













JS

 

[ZOD]

Okay.

As long as you can admit that you were willing suffer through nightmares such as the 2-4 record to find excellence (or not) in a QB. In that case your argument has merit. I do not think that the vast majority of Jay haters have comtemplated what it will take to find "the guy" though.

I do want to reinforce the sufferage that you say you're will to go through though. First, you know about the Rob Johnson debacle and I don't have any Bills fan to rag locally so I'll just point that one out and say congratulations on your toughness to suffer through something like that.

I do have a brother-in-law who is a cowboy fan though. I don't think you have watched the pain in ones face as he watches a full year of "training". All the while his friends (including me) are telling him that the two QB's that he has watched absolutely suck. One that was given the most opportunity could not even make it as a backup on our squad. Do you know how embarassing it feels to watch your QB throw a ball 5 yards passed the line of scrimmage and hit the receiver in the back because he was not suppose to turn yet. In the background you see the head coach (who is not qualified) just sit there in disgust. I laugh. I laugh and say that his team sucks because the owner sucks and it doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon. My brother-in-law is a positive person though and he just looks at it as the peaks and valleys of excellence.

Again I must congratulate you on being a mightier man than I. I couldn't sit through that crap.