Armando: Ireland job doesn't appear at risk

[Nublar7]

That moment when you realize that while you were typing a response, someone posted a response that completely proved what you were saying wrong.

Read up, my friend.

Again, wording might say one thing but you are naive if you think Parcells didn't have the trump card and was making the majority of the decisions. Remember when Ricky got an extension? Parcells and him worked it out on a napkin. Remember the detailed story about Taylor being traded to Washington? Parcells was the one who pulled that off, absolutely no mention of Ireland. Don't act dumb, you know Parcells was in charge of this team and had the ultimate final say, despite what was apparently written into Ireland's contract. The actions of Ross since Parcells departure and the press release that Ireland got final say in September of 2010 all back up the common sense factor and disputes the idea that the contract language ruled all. Parcells didn't hire Ireland to be his boss, he hired him to be his employee.

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

the pro-ireland crowd sure does like to gang up on ppl.... an aggressive bunch. I made 1 comment in the hole thread stating that this is nothing but speculation which is true. Thats all it is.

I'm not pro-Ireland. In fact, I think he should be fired and I would be happy for the future of this franchise if that were to happen tomorrow. But lashing out at Nubs for posting an article written by Armando Salguero is just silly.

 

[ckparrothead]

Again, wording might say one thing but you are naive if you think Parcells didn't have the trump card and was making the majority of the decisions. Remember when Ricky got an extension? Parcells and him worked it out on a napkin. Remember the detailed story about Taylor being traded to Washington? Parcells was the one who pulled that off, absolutely no mention of Ireland. Don't act dumb, you know Parcells was in charge of this team and had the ultimate final say, despite what was apparently written into Ireland's contract. The actions of Ross since Parcells departure and the press release that Ireland got final say in September of 2010 all back up the common sense factor and disputes the idea that the contract language ruled all. Parcells didn't hire Ireland to be his boss, he hired him to be his employee.

"Dumb" is pretending to know DETAILED interactions between two men you've never met. As I said before the difference between us is you THINK you know exactly how their relationship was and exactly what happened, even though you have virtually no basis for it. I don't know how those interactions went nor how those decisions were made. Nor do you. The objective fact remains that Jeff Ireland was given authority over all personnel decisions when he was hired, and thank you for conceding that I am undeniably correct on that issue. What you still fail to get is that any authority that Bill Parcells exercised over the roster was authority willingly given up by the man who actually had the authority.

If I came to you and said that Jeff Ireland's moves can't be judged because Mike Dee is the Team President and we don't know when he may or may not have overridden Jeff Ireland, would that be a valid argument? No, Jeff Ireland is the General Manager. If he lets Mike Dee dictate things to him then it's still Jeff Ireland's choice, just as it was Jeff Ireland's choice to come to Miami in the first place.

I think the reality is that Bill Parcells threw his weight around a lot in 2008, and Jeff Ireland let him. At that time Wayne Huizenga was the owner and Wayne would've sided with Parcells in any dispute. However by the beginning of the 2009 off season, Wayne Huizenga was no longer the owner. It was Steven Ross. Many reports have been given that the relationship between Ross and Parcells was cold at best. And in fact it was written into Parcells' contract that when Huizenga sold the team, Bill's contract became guaranteed whether he worked for the Dolphins or not. He could quit and collect all the money, or he could keep working and collect all the money. Either way he gets all the money. Ross on the other hand is close with Carl Peterson, who is the one who gave Jeff Ireland his first scouting jobs. Combine all that with the contracts which state in black and white that Ireland has authority over the roster, and the reality is that if you don't believe Ireland truly had the authority in 2008 then you have to admit that by 2009 the ball was fully in Ireland's court. Any dispute between Ireland and Parcells would've likely seen Ross siding with Ireland and Bill Parcells saying "kiss my ass, I'm leaving with my money".

So again I point to the contract, the structure of the relationship, the relationship between Ross and Ireland right up to this day, and I say that whatever authority Ireland gave Parcells to make roster moves without his say-so, was authority directly ceded by Jeff Ireland via being a pushover. He had all the aces.

 

[Nublar7]

Jeff Ireland has had the title of general manager since coming to the Dolphins before the 2008 season, but there was no question that Bill Parcells was the boss. Parcells held the even-more-impressive title of executive vice president of football operations, and his entry in the team’s media guide came before Ireland’s, too.

But the Dolphins announced Tuesday afternoon that Parcells, who turned 69 last month, is taking a step back to be a “daily consultant,” while Ireland “will assume full control over all aspects and decisions in regard to the Miami Dolphin football team and support staff,” according to a statement not attributed to anybody in the organization.

“This was the intent of the structure put in place in the past,” the statement also read.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...olphins-gm-jeff-ireland-assumes-full-control/

Interesting, I wonder why the Dolphins would have to announce a power shift when Parcells left if Ireland always was in full control since 2008. hmmmmmm

 

[MarshallFin1]

heated debate in here. Im siding with ck on this, you go with whats on paper, not assume things. The only reason Ireland didnt get fired is because he left sparano hanging, something only a person like ireland would do. The noble thing for ireland to have done was to take equal responsibility for the mess down here, which is why i still feel bad for sparano. If ireland was stayin, than so should have sparano.

I'm not pro-Ireland. In fact, I think he should be fired and I would be happy for the future of this franchise if that were to happen tomorrow. But lashing out at Nubs for posting an article written by Armando Salguero is just silly.

right, because tellin someone there gettin a little chippy is lashin out at them?? Thats nonsense.

 

[Hayden Fox]

House should have been cleaned at the end of the 2010 season. Period.

 

[TheWalrus]

Again, wording might say one thing but you are naive if you think Parcells didn't have the trump card and was making the majority of the decisions. Remember when Ricky got an extension? Parcells and him worked it out on a napkin. Remember the detailed story about Taylor being traded to Washington? Parcells was the one who pulled that off, absolutely no mention of Ireland. Don't act dumb, you know Parcells was in charge of this team and had the ultimate final say, despite what was apparently written into Ireland's contract. The actions of Ross since Parcells departure and the press release that Ireland got final say in September of 2010 all back up the common sense factor and disputes the idea that the contract language ruled all. Parcells didn't hire Ireland to be his boss, he hired him to be his employee.

I'll say it again:

Definitive statement + no evidence = bull****.

This debate would be a lot more interesting frankly if you and the people who agree with you had any substance at all to draw on. But all you really have are appeals to vague notions like "you know" and "don't be naive."

It's disappointing you don't have more. As it is this debate has become like arguing climate change with someone who denies the planet is warming because they had to wear a sweater for a day in October.

 

[jason_taylor]

well if it makes u feel better, if ireland gets fired il become a season ticket holder, deal?

meeeeeeeeeeeeee tooooooooooo......

 

[Nublar7]

I'll say it again:

Definitive statement + no evidence = bull****.

This debate would be a lot more interesting frankly if you and the people who agree with you had any substance at all to draw on. But all you really have are appeals to vague notions like "you know" and "don't be naive."

It's disappointing you don't have more. As it is this debate has become like arguing climate change with someone who denies the planet is warming because they had to wear a sweater for a day in October.

You actually think the employee had more power than the boss?

 

[TheWalrus]

You actually think the employee had more power than the boss?

What difference does it make if they agreed on everything? See, this silly argument of yours rests on two main ideas, both of which have nothing factual to back them up:

1.) Bill Parcells, despite what was written in Jeff Ireland's contract, had the power to over rule the person with "final say."
2.) He used that power. Ie, they disagreed often.

Regardless of whether the first is true, for Ireland not to be blamed for what's happened since 2008 the second must also be true, otherwise he's complicit, right? So where's the proof that Parcells was over ruling him? Forget proof, where even is the insinuation that this was happening?

 

[Nublar7]

What difference does it make if they agreed on everything?

Also, you'll have to name for me the list of GMs who don't have bosses. I'll even spot you Jerry Jones.

Ready? GO!

unless you are the owner of the team, you will always have a boss above you. Not many teams have the unique structure that the Dolphins had with Parcells as the football czar. Most teams have the owner hire the GM and then either the GM hires the coach or the owner also hires the coach. Wayne hired Parcells to make the hires in the football department and Ireland and Sparano reported to Parcells. Parcells always wanted to "buy the groceries" and he would have never taken the job in his late 60s if he did have complete control of the football department. Ireland may have had final say written into his contract to pry him for Dallas, but it is pretty apparent Parcells was calling the shots. Ireland may have been in agreement, but that is not really surprising since Parcells was his mentor and BOSS. Also that fact that there are many stories about player trades and contract talks that involved Parcells and not Ireland is good evidence to support this. The other major evidence is when the team announced that Parcells was turning over complete control to Ireland. Why would he have to do that if Ireland truly had it from day one. The evidence is there, you just have to acknowledge it.

 

[TheWalrus]

Parcells always wanted to "buy the groceries" and he would have never taken the job in his late 60s if he did have complete control of the football department.

Source?

Ireland may have had final say written into his contract to pry him for Dallas, but it is pretty apparent Parcells was calling the shots.

Source?

Ireland may have been in agreement, but that is not really surprising since Parcells was his mentor and BOSS.

This does not destroy the notion that Ireland cannot be held responsible for personnel moves going back to 2008 how?

 

[Nublar7]

Source?

Buying the groceries is a famous Bill Parcells line. If you have never heard it, a simple Google search will give you many articles and sources for that phrase.

Source?

I have already listed some examples in this thread if you would like to go back and read them. Also the actions of Parcells and Ross after Bill left is pretty damning evidence to back it up.

This does not destroy the notion that Ireland cannot be held responsible for personnel moves going back to 2008 how?

I never said he shouldn't be held somewhat accountable but since he was not in complete control he was able to distance himself. That is why Ross has kept him and pretty much gave him a clean slate going into the 2011 season. Obviously Ross has a much better idea of what went on with Ireland and Parcells than any of us, and his actions since Bill's departure speaks volumes that Parcells was mostly running things.

If Ireland was in charge, what was the point of even having Parcells? I don't know many bosses that hire employees to have more power than themselves.

 

[TheWalrus]

Buying the groceries is a famous Bill Parcells line. If you have never heard it, a simple Google search will give you many articles and sources for that phrase.

I am aware of the line. That does not make the second part of your statement, "he would have never taken the job in his late 60s if he did have complete control of the football department" necessarily true. Without proof, it is merely an assumption.

Parcells did not, for example, have "final say" and wasn't the GM in Dallas, a job he took after the "groceries" line.

I have already listed some examples in this thread if you would like to go back and read them.

I have, unfortunately, read all of your posts in this thread. You have offered no concrete examples of Parcells "calling the shots" over Ireland's wishes. Stories about Parcells negotiating contracts or trades do not by themselves imply that Ireland and Parcells were not working in concert.

I never said he shouldn't be held somewhat accountable but since he was not in complete control he was able to distance himself. That is why Ross has kept him and pretty much gave him a clean slate going into the 2011 season.

Source?

Obviously Ross has a much better idea of what went on with Ireland and Parcells than any of us, and his actions since Bill's departure speaks volumes that Parcells was mostly running things.

Do you have any evidence that Ross was displeased with the way Parcells was supposedly "running things?" Is it your belief that Ross would have fired Parcells had Parcells not left?

 

[MarshallFin1]

i find it hard to believe that nublar is not pro ireland. Holy ****, this thread has been going 16 pages and still going! come on, dont try and hide that you want ireland to stay anymore dude, its quite obvious when you debate til the end of this dude and wont admit your wrong. I dont mind ireland staying either but on one condition, he has to let ross change the contract and let philbin have final say, enough is enough. Changes need to be made.