Browns questioned Tannehill's leadership

[ckparrothead]

This goes without saying. They liked Weeden a lot but Holmgren himself admitted that they liked Kendall Wright even better at #22. He's a "value investor", he's not going to overdraft a player, and Weeden (while I like him) would have been way overdrafted at #4. It's not as simple as "If you like him then you take him anywhere". If you like him but you know you can get him later, then you take him later, particularly if you're opinion is that you're okay without him anyway.
Like I said, Weeden and Tannehill were both bottom of the first round/high 2nd round guys who were overdrafted IMO.

I don't know if Holmgren is as strict a value investor as you suggest. The reason he would've taken Kendall Wright rather than Brandon Weeden at #22 overall is because he had a trade set to move up from from his high 2nd round pick into the lower 1st round and still pick up Brandon Weeden. In that case the decision to take Wright at #22 would've had naught to do with Weeden and everything to do with Wright being such a special talent that it's worth it to pay the price it would've taken to move up from the high 2nd round into the low 1st round. Let's say that would've cost the Browns a 3rd rounder, then they were saying we believe Wright is worth our 2nd and 3rd round picks.

 

[Nublar7]

For the same reason Jeff Ireland busied himself setting up a trade-down for Ryan Tannehill until he got intel that there was a team that may have traded just ahead of us had we tried that. Even if a GM wants a player he takes him around where he's set to go so that he pays the lowest possible price for him.

This is the first I have heard about Ireland trying to trade down and still get Tannehill. Where are you getting this from?

 

[LikeUntoGod]

Again, here is a guy that has only played in a shotgun, college spread style offense...if Tannehill has to overcome maturity to be ready, Weeden has to overcome not playing in a pro style offense to be ready.

I think they both have adjustments to make, the difference to me is that Tannehill is a superior athlete, is 5 years younger and will be playing in an offense very similar to the one he ran the last two years in college. Weeden did not and is not a superior athlete, he is a pocket QB in the mold of a Peyton Manning.

It is my belief that the NFL is changing, the scemes and athletic ability of the pass rushers are trending the NFL to more mobil, athletic QUarterbacks.

Tannehill is that type, Weeden is not.

QBs throw the football, every season we have mobile QBs come into the NFL and the ones that sit in the pocket and throw well always do the best. This myth that Tannehill was in a pure NFL "pro type" offense is growing. He also ran a lot of spread option where he ran the ball. A lot of his plays were more Urban Meyer college then Phiblin NFL ones.

 

[insomnia411]

I don't know if Holmgren is as strict a value investor as you suggest. The reason he would've taken Kendall Wright rather than Brandon Weeden at #22 overall is because he had a trade set to move up from from his high 2nd round pick into the lower 1st round and still pick up Brandon Weeden. In that case the decision to take Wright at #22 would've had naught to do with Weeden and everything to do with Wright being such a special talent that it's worth it to pay the price it would've taken to move up from the high 2nd round into the low 1st round. Let's say that would've cost the Browns a 3rd rounder, then they were saying we believe Wright is worth our 2nd and 3rd round picks.

Holmgren was enamored with Wright and thought that he would have been a great value at #22, even moreso than Weeden. I can't be sure if he would have had that attitude or not if he wasn't in a position to trade up for Weeden after hypothetically taking Wright at 22. Either way, the fact remains Holmgren thought that Wright was a better value than Weeden at 22. If he didn't feel that way then I don't know what his motivation would be for saying so.
I personally think Holmgren made the right move by taking Weeden, and taking Wright over Weeden would have been a mistake, but I'm just talking about how Holmgren felt.

 

[ckparrothead]

Just to reiterate what I'm saying here, I'm happy to have Ryan Tannehill. I would've been happier to have Brandon Weeden, though. Not a big deal. I'm not saying Miami got a bad player or that he'll be a bust. But Miami fans generally only want to hear that we got the bestest player ever and so it creates arguments when I say that's not the case.

No I don't believe Weeden will have much trouble translating to a pro style offense. He's going to a West Coast Offense in Cleveland. It's the same damn thing. IF he succeeds there (big IF) then he would've succeeded here, in all likelihood.

I think the stuff about "fit" for the system is generally just an argument of convenience, not necessarily by people here but by the team in general who has every interest in doing the exact same thing the Cleveland Browns are doing...convince the fan base that every other QB option was inferior and we got the best possible guy. Miami's doing that, Cleveland's doing that, it happens.

Miami's offense could easily have been modified to best fit Brandon Weeden's skill set. In fact it's eerie how often I watch the Green Bay offense operate under Joe Philbin and end up thinking to myself, man Brandon Weeden would have a field day in this passing offense, it suits him perfectly. I see a lot of the same throws from Oklahoma State to the Green Bay passing offense. With Tannehill here instead of Weeden, you're going to see a little more Texas A&M Mike Sherman flavor than Joe Philbin flavor. More rollouts, more emphasis on the run game.

But the point is the offense could have been adjusted to fit either guy, the Dolphins just felt that Ryan Tannehill was their guy and so they went with him. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[insomnia411]

Just to reiterate what I'm saying here, I'm happy to have Ryan Tannehill. I would've been happier to have Brandon Weeden, though. Not a big deal. I'm not saying Miami got a bad player or that he'll be a bust. But Miami fans generally only want to hear that we got the bestest player ever and so it creates arguments when I say that's not the case.

No I don't believe Weeden will have much trouble translating to a pro style offense. He's going to a West Coast Offense in Cleveland. It's the same damn thing. IF he succeeds there (big IF) then he would've succeeded here, in all likelihood.

I think the stuff about "fit" for the system is generally just an argument of convenience, not necessarily by people here but by the team in general who has every interest in doing the exact same thing the Cleveland Browns are doing...convince the fan base that every other QB option was inferior and we got the best possible guy. Miami's doing that, Cleveland's doing that, it happens.

Miami's offense could easily have been modified to best fit Brandon Weeden's skill set. In fact it's eerie how often I watch the Green Bay offense operate under Joe Philbin and end up thinking to myself, man Brandon Weeden would have a field day in this passing offense, it suits him perfectly. I see a lot of the same throws from Oklahoma State to the Green Bay passing offense. With Tannehill here instead of Weeden, you're going to see a little more Texas A&M Mike Sherman flavor than Joe Philbin flavor. More rollouts, more emphasis on the run game.

But the point is the offense could have been adjusted to fit either guy, the Dolphins just felt that Ryan Tannehill was their guy and so they went with him. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree with everything you just said except for your positive thoughts on Tannehill. Sorry, I was just never a fan for a variety of reasons. I wouldv'e much rather traded down for Weeden if that was at all possible.

 

[hoops]

I don't think that's a silly question at all. Jeff Ireland even admitted that what he really wanted to do was trade down before taking Tannehill, but that he couldn't do that because he had some info that another team was specifically set to trade up and take Tannehill if we did that. I think it's a pretty fair question whether Ireland would have taken the same route if we were set to pick at #4 the whole time.

well you and i disagree...ireland painted himself in a corner on this in free agency...no doubt in my mind pick #4 it would have been tannehill...none

 

[hoops]

It's a chicken or egg argument. Are we installing that stuff because of Ryan Tannehill, or is Ryan Tannehill here because we're installing rollouts? Take a look at the Green Bay offense and tell me how many rollout plays you see and whether it's close to the number of rollouts we're led to believe that we will see in Miami.



Weeden avoids pressure before it happens, by knowing where the pressure is coming from, making adjustments at the line to the play call and the blocking, and getting the ball to where the defense was weakest. He was a blitz beater. Teams often blitzed him early and then were forced to stop because he was killing them.

on the first part i think that ireland likes mobility in his qbs...thats why imo matt moore and david garrard are here...they're not statues...neither is tannehill...to me the entire game is headed towards move the pocket and athletic qbs who can make plays on the move but also do damage in the pocket...

the second part sounds like a lot of love on your part...to me...it won't be long before he feels plenty of pressure in cleveland and quick pressure and we'll see how he handles it...he can make all the checks he wants to etc lets not act like this guy is peyton manning b/t the ears

 

[BlueFin]

There were a lot more pro elements in Weeden's offense than a lot of people in here realize. Certain people are underestimating the amount of pro-translatable elements were installed in Todd Monken's Oklahoma State offense, while at the same time underestimating the amount college-style offensive techniques and elements have bled into pro offenses. Keep in mind Todd Monken is an NFL coach who had just arrived at Oklahoma State from the Jacksonville Jaguars. He installed a lot of pro elements to the offense.

A "shotgun" offense is no longer a damning word because half of the passing offenses in the NFL are shotgun offenses.

No not a damning word at all, however, as admitted and brought out in the Gruden segment, Weeden has been strictly shotgun...which means no matter how talented one might think he is, until he proves he can operate behind center there is some degree of uncertainty and adjustment that must take place. We have seen this before.

 

[templarwd]

Well, they are the Browns for a reason...

Yup ! If you thought the Phins O was was bad in the 1st 7 games of 2011, you haven't seen the Browns O in the last, well pretty much since 1999. IT SUCKS !!!! And don't think that Holmgren is some kind infallible of QB svengali. Colt McCoy sure as hell didn't take any giant leaps last season.

 

[hoops]

that browns o has been a horrendous watch for some time now...horrendous

 

[ckparrothead]

No not a damning word at all, however, as admitted and brought out in the Gruden segment, Weeden has been strictly shotgun...which means no matter how talented one might think he is, until he proves he can operate behind center there is some degree of uncertainty and adjustment that must take place. We have seen this before.

I don't know what you thought you heard in the Gruden segment but no Weeden has not been a strictly shotgun quarterback. His first three years at Oklahoma State, he operated Mike Gundy's offense which involved a lot of dropbacks from under center. In high school he operated a half dropback, half shotgun offense.

There's uncertainty in EVERY draft prospect. Every one. I don't care if he operated under center or not. Ryan Lindley operated under center and was a good college quarterback. Is there more certainty with him than there was with Cam Newton?

That issue is becoming the biggest red herring when it comes to quarterback prospects. The NFL is half shotgun now, anyway. And it's getting to the point where some offenses (like Peyton Manning's pre-injury) are 80% shotgun. Whether the guy has dropped back from center or not is almost a total non-issue for me. What matters is whether he CAN. Does he have the feet for it? Can he read the field while moving? Does he have natural rhythm? These are things you can tell about a guy for the most part no matter what offense he ran.

 

[insomnia411]

Yup ! If you thought the Phins O was was bad in the 1st 7 games of 2011, you haven't seen the Browns O in the last, well pretty much since 1999. IT SUCKS !!!! And don't think that Holmgren is some kind infallible of QB svengali. Colt McCoy sure as hell didn't take any giant leaps last season.

I have seen the Browns offense.... Last year in week 3 drive down the field and score a game winning TD against us.

 

[PYRO]

Browns still suck so...I don't think much about it.

 

[Coach_Rob]

if the browns get off to a good start its going to have alot to do with tr not weenden imo. the browns are going to be a running team. imo we wont be talking about this in the next couple years. alot of people are torn on who we should have taken, and i respect everyones thoughts, i just dont think miami would have been a good place for weeden bc of the type of o. i think tannehill has alot more to offer and landed in the right situation bc he doesnt have to be the guy day 1. weeden landed in the right situtation for him bc he will start day one. weeden would not have beat out moore or garrard.