emocomputerjock
With stolen wings and evil ways
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You didn't answer my post though.
Cam Cameron on Ted Ginn's First Couple Practices
- Thread starter phinfanfrommd
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You didn't answer my post though.
You can believe anything you want, just don't pass it off as fact. Clearly many, many people saw Ginn as a first round pick this year and several had him going in the top 10. Pretending that the Fins FO were the only people that projected Ginn as a top flight talent is disingenuous. You don't have to believe that Ginn will ever be a great WR. Many draft picks don't live up to their lofty status.
phishfan4life
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I like this post. I completely agree with you....I don't think there were too many, if any Dolphin fans who anticipated Randy & Cam picking Ginn #9 overall. I remember just being completely shocked, and somewhat ticked when it happened. I thought for sure we had Quinn (who I wanted at the time). After we picked Beck and Satele in the 2nd round I started to calm down, and think about what Ginn could bring to the table. And as you stated above, there is a lot of anticipation and excitement about what he could "potentially" do. The more I see of him, the less I think it was a reach. Will he ever be a great WR, I don't know.....but he has potential, and he should be an electric return man.
PhinstiGator
Hungry For A Championship
You got that right. Bedard was actually reporting that Ginn had a limp in his first practice. It was strange because every other report I read said that Ginn was free of any noticable effects from the injury.
Bedard was also prematurely reporting that Ginn would have his foot in a boot for at least a month after the draft. Yet Ginn remained boot free.
Bill C
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You didn't ask a quesiton, you made statements so I didn't think there was anything to answer.
"I'm not saying that it's not a valid opinion - I'm saying that it's an unfair criteria to apply to WRs due to the fact that most wide recievers don't contribute a great deal their rookie seasons unless they're a physical specimen like Calvin Johnson. Ginn can be counted on to produce a little at the WR position this year, but provides immediate impact on special teams, something a lot of WRs don't do. Ginn is a special case as far as this draft is concerned every bit as much in Johnson, for widely different reasons. I just don't think it's fair to criticize one aspect of Ginn's game without looking at the rest, and without looking at what rookie WR's normally contribute their first year in the league. At the very least, we know Cameron and the coaches are putting Ginn through his paces on learning the WR position, and that he'll be developed deliberately and properly."
Is Ginn a reach at 9? Perhaps not for a team who's primary need is a return man / possible WR. But, I don't see that as the case with this year's Phins (at the time of the draft). We have a lot of holes and a lot of question marks. That position did not seem like a priority worthy of the #9 pick in the draft. A solid LOT, or a true bookend DE, or a lights out LB seem like they answer our question marks more than a primarily PR/KR guy.
But as I mentioned in another post, Ginn provides anticipation the likes of which we haven't seen in quite some time - maybe that is what is needed more than anything else - someone who has the ability to create excitement.
Bill C
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Ginn was projected as a 1st round pick, but our biggest need at the time was not PR/KR minimal WR. That's where I WAS stating the Fins messed this one up. The value to the team given our needs compared to what Ginn brings to the table is out of whack given the other holes that could have been filled with playmakers.
But, I have since changed my sinful ways and have repented as I think Ginn more than likely fills a need off the field - an air of excitement that will put butts back in the seats for home games a la Michael Vick in Atlanta.
VanDolPhan
Practice Squad
That's what I'm hoping for is some excitement. Special teams are an excuse for an early bathroom break. Now hopefully special teams will be edge of your seat. Same when Chambers and Ginn are both on the field. I'm waiting for that first double reverse. Or the Booker/Ginn reverse with Booker taking it and tossing it clear back across the field while the defense is converging on him leaving Ginn open down the other side. Then of course I want to see what he does with the ball in his hands after a catch. See if he's got the elusiveness to go with that speed.
Wrong again. All you have to do is look to week 2 and week 15 of last year, week 10 and week 17 of 2005, etc. to see that the NFL does no such thing. And thats just considering our division rivals. They rotate them around. If you can provide me with evidence showing the opposite, please do.
Also, he's not "using it as a justification." Contrary to what you believe, he doesn't have to "justify" a damn thing. Hate the pick that much? Don't pay to go to the games. Last I checked, he was getting paid to make these decisions, not you. Now, given your obvious disdain for the pick, I'm sure you could have done better. Plenty of teams will be hiring next year. Good luck. :hi5:
As for the comparison between Ginn and Welker, do I really need to explain the differences between OSU and Texas Tech? The competition isn't even close and the fact that you quote stats from that TT offense as something that translates to the NFL is laughable. I assume you are still waiting for Kingsbury to pan out given all those NCAA records he holds. Grasping.at.straws.
EVERY ROOKIE WR NEEDS TO BE DEVELOPED. This isn't rocket science. VERY rarely does a WR, even a number 1, come in and blow up the NFL. If you are expecting him to come in and put in a Pro Bowl performance in his first season, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Hell, a lot of times they don't contribute in any real way at all in their first year. So, I'm supposed to be upset that Ginn can come in and immediatly contribute to one of the most underrated areas of the game? Someone on here a few weeks back posted the first year stats of the past 20 or more WR's taken in the first round not to long ago. I think only 1 or 2 had 1000 yard seasons and some barely registered a stat at all, including some who are stars today.
Regarding the lemmings discussion, judging from your posts, you are pretty far from the middle. You obviously despise this pick. The coaches and front office felt he was the best option available for the system THEY are installing. Judging from the other picks, they felt speed was something we were severely lacking on the offensive side of the ball and that it was the biggest issue on the team. From that standpoint, I can't think of a better pick at 9 than Ginn.
Again, regarding the ST focus of attack by the Ginn haters, Cam was pointing out how he can contribute RIGHT AWAY while being groomed to be a starter on offense. Perhaps DW had the same plans on the other side of the ball with Moore, but it didn't pan out because of injuries and the fact that it was DW picking. We haven't seen what Cam can do here, so it is impossible to compare the two and their draft judgement. Also, EVERY top pick is a boom or bust prospect. That's because there's no middle ground in the eyes of the fans. A player could be decent, but if he was a top ten pick, he is a bust. As for Cam pointing out his family, I think that had less to do with Ginn than it did with the direction Cam wants to go with this team. He doesn't want character issues on the team and I think that was his little clue as to what would happen over the next few weeks following the draft. He was merely pointing out that Ginn fit that mold.
Also, please quote where I said he was a top flight WR. Was he good in college? Yep, damn good. Will he be good in the NFL? I certainly hope so. That's about all the predicting you will get out of me.
Bill C
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Please explain the differences between TT and OSU. Because then you will have to face the reality of BYU vs. ND, and the University of Hawaii, and Central Michigan as by your logic - those guys' accomplishments should not matter nor are they worthy because they didn't go to big time schools - yet - we drafted them - all of them.
Using your logic then Beck's stats are laughable and non-comparable to Quinn's - oops. Satele's stats and blocking skills are not comparable to Khalil's because he went to University of Hawaii - not USC - oops again. Oh wait, Soliai's stats mean nothing coming from University of Utah - correct? Reagan Mauia can't be any good - another University of Hawaii guy - so how can we compare him? Mormino? - Oh wait, Central Michigan. You don't get to just pick one and not the others.
The point I was making with Welker is that he was very productive as a returner but it was his lack of perceived speed that caused him to not be drafted - yet he still produced in the return game. Hester's production and 4.45 speed got him drafted in the 2nd round - and he produced in the return game, and it is Ginn's sub 4.3 speed and return production that got him drafted in the top 10 because it was not his 13 TD receptions in three seasons as that is only 4.3 per year - hardly top 10 stuff. Too many folks, I did NOT say YOU, are touting him as a great WR - I'm pointing out that he has not been a top WR yet and he was drafted primarily for returning who may contribute as a WR- or in other words - due primarily to his ST prowess.
Now - are you done beating this already dead horse?
I have already said that in thinking more about this, Ginn brings the anticipation of excitment and big play potential.
Using your logic then Beck's stats are laughable and non-comparable to Quinn's - oops. Satele's stats and blocking skills are not comparable to Khalil's because he went to University of Hawaii - not USC - oops again. Oh wait, Soliai's stats mean nothing coming from University of Utah - correct? Reagan Mauia can't be any good - another University of Hawaii guy - so how can we compare him? Mormino? - Oh wait, Central Michigan. You don't get to just pick one and not the others.
The point I was making with Welker is that he was very productive as a returner but it was his lack of perceived speed that caused him to not be drafted - yet he still produced in the return game. Hester's production and 4.45 speed got him drafted in the 2nd round - and he produced in the return game, and it is Ginn's sub 4.3 speed and return production that got him drafted in the top 10 because it was not his 13 TD receptions in three seasons as that is only 4.3 per year - hardly top 10 stuff. Too many folks, I did NOT say YOU, are touting him as a great WR - I'm pointing out that he has not been a top WR yet and he was drafted primarily for returning who may contribute as a WR- or in other words - due primarily to his ST prowess.
Now - are you done beating this already dead horse?
I have already said that in thinking more about this, Ginn brings the anticipation of excitment and big play potential.
You keep saying this as if it were true. Did you actually speak to Cam or Randy on this issue? He was drafted to play football. His former teammate at OS was drafted last year at #25. Ginn was just as productive as Holmes in college. Ginn adds ST ability and more big play potential because of his speed. Why is he not worth a higher pick than Holmes? If you agree that Ginn was worth more than Holmes, why not #9? It has been stated that two other teams were ready to take Ginn in the next few picks after the Fins, so I don't get what you are thinking.
Regarding the Fins needing other positions filled, what happened to drafting best player available? Isn't drafting for need taboo?
Uh...I went to almost all of the mini-camps two weeks ago now. Yes, he dropped some, but he also made some spectacular catches. AND, he did beat the press coverage. Cam even talked about it, including some of the blogging sports reporters. He did not drop any more passes than anyone else.
Oh but wait, he was drafted at #9, so he is not expected to have or need a learning, growth, and adjustment period. Top 10 draft picks are supposed to be perfect NFL players from the get go... Whoever came up with that notion has a lot of **** for brains.
Bill C
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I think the logic is teams draft the BPA for their biggest need. If you had just spent the #1 overall pick on a Qb the year before, would you spend your next number 1 on a Qb simply because he was the BPA?
Ginn had 13 TDs 1773 yds as a WR over 3 years at OSU - that's 4.3 TDs and 591 yards per year - in college - is that what you call a top 10 pick for a WR? It is that kind of production that got Holmes drafted at #25 - not top 10.
If you think he isn't a top 10 pick based primarily on his return skills - then it is not I who am missing something here. Taking the combination of the two - fine I admit that there is more value there than I originally gave credit for - but #25 is a long way on the value chart from #9.
So you admit that his ST skills add value to his WR skills. How far up from 25 does that put him? Santana Moss was drafted at #16 in 2001. He didn't return kickoffs in college, just punts. Shouldn't Ginn be ranked higher than 16 then? How about #12? Isn't that pretty close to where the Fins drafted him?
You also have to realize that he was learning on the fly at OSU and that he had talented receivers around him in a balanced offense. There were a limited number of receptions to go around. Two of his college teammates were also first round draft picks.
BTW, where are you getting your numbers on Ginn? They seem to be a bit off. This is from NFL.com:
Ginn was a top 10 pick because of his potential as a football player. All college players are drafted based on how teams think their skills will translate at the pro level. If it were merely about the numbers they put up in college, the draft would look a lot different.
IMO, the Fins will get the ball into Ginn's hands four different ways (just like OSU did) - pass receptions, rushes, punt returns, and kick returns. I can see Ginn getting 10 touches per game ( 3 - 5 catches, 1 - 2 runs, 2 - 3 KRs, 2 - 3 PRs) . A WR that doesn't return kicks would need to get 160 catches to match the production that Ginn can produce. I think he will be the 3rd or 4th receiver immediately. The difference between Ginn and a typical 3rd or 4th receiver is that the Fins will design plays to get the ball in Ginn's hands. Also, teams will have to respect his speed. Teams don't often game plan for a 3rd or 4th receiver, but they will need to game plan for Ginn.
Say what you want, but the Fins were in desperate need of playmakers. They got one in Ginn.
I applaud you. Excellent post.