Can't wait for Spielman to get fired already..........

[St. Nick]

Hey, I can agree to disagree. I don't expect everyone to have the same ideas I do.

Let me ask you this though... since you want to give Spielman credit when Wanny had the final decision, will you do the same when Saban does?

If Saban has a power house draft, I can assure you that it will be percieved as "in spite of Spielman" when for some reason he is being given credit for Dave's draft choices.

If you aren't willing to give him credit for Saban's draft... well then you have only one draft in which he landed 5 of 6 players, using mostly late round picks, and the vast majority of which contributed well above expectations in their rookie seasons.

Go back a few Yrs when Jimmy Johnson was around. THOSE were ****ing drafts!! We missed on a few 1st rounders but we picked up Superstars in every one. I'm sorry...........just drafting enough to make the team is not enough in my book. We need some playmakers and again where we agree to disagree is that I feel Rick Spielman had more influence than not. I don't think Saban could be told or talked into anything............but if its a good draft AND the ultimate test..........if Rick stays around past april..........then pass the ketchup becuase I will eat my hat. And Gladly becuase all I want is for this to be a successful draft and have a good season next year.

 

[3P]

Go back a few Yrs when Jimmy Johnson was around. THOSE were ****ing drafts!! We missed on a few 1st rounders but we picked up Superstars in every one. I'm sorry...........just drafting enough to make the team is not enough in my book. We need some playmakers and again where we agree to disagree is that I feel Rick Spielman had more influence than not. I don't think Saban could be told or talked into anything............but if its a good draft AND the ultimate test..........if Rick stays around past april..........then pass the ketchup becuase I will eat my hat. And Gladly becuase all I want is for this to be a successful draft and have a good season next year.

"The Wanny years" were marked less by the "build with the draft" approach that Jimmy had, and more by "we're one free agent away from a Super Bowl". Hence the trade for Ricky Williams, occupying two valueable first round picks that could have been 10+ year contributors at their respective positions.

If you look at the only year that Spielman has had final say, you have Derrick Pope and Will Poole just for starters. Pope showed enough potential for me to nab him as Zach's potential replacement. Hence if you consider Zach as one of Jimmy's superstars (who wouldn't?) you can say that Spielman was able to find a potential superstar in Derrick Pope. Same could be said about Poole who was ranked by some as the #1 CB in last years draft. I see a very good chance that he will become our next Pat Surtain.

I want an excellent draft as well... believe me. In all honesty, I have never been witness to a "good" draft. JJ's drafts occured when I was just emerging from my stage of simply watching the Dolphins on TV and enjoying the performance. I knew the players, and I knew the coach... but I didn't follow the draft/free agency. Due to that, I didn't really learn about our additions until I saw the in a game. Since then, I have obviously taken a much deeper interest in the team, and thus follow all the "behind the scenes" stuff that I was previously not aware of. Trust me, I'm hungry to sit and watch the draft without us picking and the subsequent Fin-ation wide "WHO?" that follows. Last year was my first glimpse of that... however I'm going to withhold the judgement of "good draft" until the players have had more of a chance to prove it as such. If you really take a look at the players we aquired this last draft to the ones we aquired while Wanny had final say, I think you will notice a night/day difference.

Honestly I see 3 players from last draft with a very good chance to become superstar starters on our team. In addition to that I see two more who I see as having a future as very productive starters. That's not bad at all in a draft with 6 picks.

In a year or two (or three) from now, we could very well look back and see that Spielman pulled even MORE late round gems in one draft than Jimmy did his entire career here.

The point is, it is WAY too early to make that determination.

 

[St. Nick]

:roflmao:


Zack Tomas, Jason Taylor, Patrick Surtian, Sam Madison, :shakeno:

I don't see it happing with the players we have now...............but Believe me I'm in your corner and HOPING to be proven wrong.

BTW.........I forgot to give props to Wes Welkert.........that was a nice(or lucky) find..............came midseason........but better late than never :D .

 

[firewannstedt]

Again if seems that you are under this delusion that Wanny had the final say...While technucally true on paper, he relied heavily on Spielmans input and was most certainly influenced by Spielman's player analysis... When Ric became GM, it was only for show.... Wanny and Rick were still a team and still deciding together who to pick for the team.

 

[St. Nick]

Again if seems that you are under this delusion that Wanny had the final say...While technucally true on paper, he relied heavily on Spielmans input and was most certainly influenced by Spielman's player analysis... When Ric became GM, it was only for show.... Wanny and Rick were still a team and still deciding together who to pick for the team.

Exactly. If Speilman had so little input why the hell did he stay around for 3 years? If I made so many projections and they were all shot down by Wanny You would bet I would be looking elsewhere were my input was valued. Dave left and is being made the scapegoat for the entire 4 yrs of misery, mis mangement of Cap Space and drafts..........No way. Speilman had his fair share in it all and the only reason he is still around is becuase at the moment........even HE is better than nothing.

 

[Shawn-l]

Again if seems that you are under this delusion that Wanny had the final say...While technucally true on paper, he relied heavily on Spielmans input and was most certainly influenced by Spielman's player analysis... When Ric became GM, it was only for show.... Wanny and Rick were still a team and still deciding together who to pick for the team.

Fine!

Provide proof to back it up and we'll believe you. Your words don't carry much weight at this point given that there were articles discussing the Boldin and Brees snafu's. Also, when Wanny was overriding his assistants on the sidelines.

Granted, Rick provided draft information, big deal! When you've got draft info and recommendations that you do not follow and you absolutely suck at personnel talent evaluation you're more than likely going to screw it up! Rick rated picks in specific rounds, Wanny disregarded the rounds in which Rick recommended they be taken. Here's a little scenario we can play out. Here's your draft report:

Team needs by priority: LT, RB, DT, LB, Safety

1st round #2 pick:

Recommend trading down to accumulate picks for 2nd and 3rd rounds

Otherwise Best prospects listed according to possible availibility:

LT Alex Barron
RB Ronnie Brown
DT Antajj Hawthorne
LB Derrick Johnson
Safety Thomas Davis

Paul Tagliabue walks to the podium and announces "And at the #2 pick Dave Wannstedt and the Miami Dolphins select Thomas Davis!".

That's what we're talking about. He seemingly would choose the worst option when given a choice. Is THAT Rick's fault? I don't honestly see how you could pin that on Rick.

If you're to blame Rick for personnel then basically, you're saying that Dave Wannstedt when given a choice made the best possible decision when given that choice.

Seeing as you made a website to fire Wanny, I honestly believe that you do not agree that Dave Wannstedt makes good decisions let alone the "best" decisions. And that being the case, you cannot blame Rick Speilman when Wanny was in charge of personnel.

 

[3P]

Again if seems that you are under this delusion that Wanny had the final say...While technucally true on paper, he relied heavily on Spielmans input and was most certainly influenced by Spielman's player analysis... When Ric became GM, it was only for show.... Wanny and Rick were still a team and still deciding together who to pick for the team.

Is that so?

Why is it that Rick's first move as a GM was to sign a QB to replace the one that Wanny had so faithfuly stuck by? Surely if Wanny was Rick's lap dog, Feeley would have been given the clear and undeniable tag as our starting QB. Instead, Rick gets his guy... and Wanny begs Fiedler back into the picture. Many here forget that Rick told Fielder to go get a trade, and that it was Wanny who brokered his return.

Also, how about we touch on the efficiency of the late round picks?

While Wanny was in charge, the Dolphins drafted 17 players in the 5th, 6th and 7th round. Of that, 7 made it through training camp. 7 players in 3 years out of a possible 17. During Spielman's SINGLE tenure as the Dolphin's GM, he managed 3 out of 4. Doesn't that sudden turnaround stand out to you? What changed? Dave Wannstedt's final say.

Rick Spielman wanted Drew Brees over Jamar Fletcher. Rick Spielman wanted Tyrone Callico or Anquan Bouldin over Eddie Moore. You mean to tell me you don't see the pattern of Spielman attempting to upgrade the offense, while being overridden by a defensive minded coach who has since become notorious for neglecting the offensive unit?

Okay then, how about when Spielman tried to swing a trade for Hasslebeck only to have Dave decide to use that pick not on Calico or Bouldin as Spielman suggested, but instead Eddie "WHO?" Moore?

There is a well documented history of the two disagreeing.

More changes that occured once Spielman became GM were the types of players that we went after. Wanny has shown a preference for veterans over youth. For reference, I submit the benching of AJ in favor of Fiedler, the benching of Vernon Carey in favor of St.Clair, and the situation of Derrius Thomson's utter lack of performance when we had a slew of young guys just waiting for a chance.

Spielman's pickups have all had one common theme: Young, hard working players with very good potential, along with not overpaying for guys like Ogun, or overpriced free agent OL guys. Funny... that sounds like it'll jive very well with Saban's philosphy.

Your hatred for Wanny blinds you from seeing Spielman as anything but someone who worked closely with your "enemy".

 

[MDFINFAN]

Is that so?

Why is it that Rick's first move as a GM was to sign a QB to replace the one that Wanny had so faithfuly stuck by? Surely if Wanny was Rick's lap dog, Feeley would have been given the clear and undeniable tag as our starting QB. Instead, Rick gets his guy... and Wanny begs Fiedler back into the picture. Many here forget that Rick told Fielder to go get a trade, and that it was Wanny who brokered his return.

Also, how about we touch on the efficiency of the late round picks?

While Wanny was in charge, the Dolphins drafted 17 players in the 5th, 6th and 7th round. Of that, 7 made it through training camp. 7 players in 3 years out of a possible 17. During Spielman's SINGLE tenure as the Dolphin's GM, he managed 3 out of 4. Doesn't that sudden turnaround stand out to you? What changed? Dave Wannstedt's final say.

Rick Spielman wanted Drew Brees over Jamar Fletcher. Rick Spielman wanted Tyrone Callico or Anquan Bouldin over Eddie Moore. You mean to tell me you don't see the pattern of Spielman attempting to upgrade the offense, while being overridden by a defensive minded coach who has since become notorious for neglecting the offensive unit?

Okay then, how about when Spielman tried to swing a trade for Hasslebeck only to have Dave decide to use that pick not on Calico or Bouldin as Spielman suggested, but instead Eddie "WHO?" Moore?

There is a well documented history of the two disagreeing.

More changes that occured once Spielman became GM were the types of players that we went after. Wanny has shown a preference for veterans over youth. For reference, I submit the benching of AJ in favor of Fiedler, the benching of Vernon Carey in favor of St.Clair, and the situation of Derrius Thomson's utter lack of performance when we had a slew of young guys just waiting for a chance.

Spielman's pickups have all had one common theme: Young, hard working players with very good potential, along with not overpaying for guys like Ogun, or overpriced free agent OL guys. Funny... that sounds like it'll jive very well with Saban's philosphy.

Your hatred for Wanny blinds you from seeing Spielman as anything but someone who worked closely with your "enemy".

Good post, Rick is an asset to this team IMHO, his picks last year were the best I've seen in a while around here...hopefully Saban sees the value in this guy. The OL wasn't rick's fault as his original picks were signed by other teams, ie. Woody and tait. But his picks of Hadnot and Carey bolt well for the future. Bua, Poole, Pope are good picks to me, AJ needed a chance and now I hope he gets it. I'm still struck on him, with Sage, whom I've always liked a lot, getting a chance to complete. Bottom line, Rick has an eye for talent..I wish he'd been the GM all along with final say..our O would have been much better by now..He saw the need and started the overhaul. Good for him.

 

[St. Nick]

Good post, Rick is an asset to this team IMHO, his picks last year were the best I've seen in a while around here...hopefully Saban sees the value in this guy. The OL wasn't rick's fault as his original picks were signed by other teams, ie. Woody and tait. But his picks of Hadnot and Carey bolt well for the future. Bua, Poole, Pope are good picks to me, AJ needed a chance and now I hope he gets it. I'm still struck on him, with Sage, whom I've always liked a lot, getting a chance to complete. Bottom line, Rick has an eye for talent..I wish he'd been the GM all along with final say..our O would have been much better by now..He saw the need and started the overhaul. Good for him.

I guess we will see in April who was right........If he stays around through the Summer obviously the guy has some positives that Wanny just wouldn't let shine..........but I believe he will be gone shortly afterwards to go help wanny scout some High School talent for PITT. I hope Your right and I'm wrong becuase we need all the help we can get from this point forward.

 

[LtDan]

I guess we will see in April who was right........If he stays around through the Summer obviously the guy has some positives that Wanny just wouldn't let shine..........but I believe he will be gone shortly afterwards to go help wanny scout some High School talent for PITT. I hope Your right and I'm wrong becuase we need all the help we can get from this point forward.

If and when he does leave, he will be hired by another NFL team for his skills. Count on it!

 

[St. Nick]

If and when he does leave, he will be hired by another NFL team for his skills. Count on it!

Lets hope and Pray thats the NY JETS!! :roflmao: :

 

[Eshlemon]

Again if seems that you are under this delusion that Wanny had the final say...While technucally true on paper, he relied heavily on Spielmans input and was most certainly influenced by Spielman's player analysis... When Ric became GM, it was only for show.... Wanny and Rick were still a team and still deciding together who to pick for the team.

You still haven't swayed moderates like me who feel RS should be kept, but not as GM. You continually state Wanny & Rick were basicaly co-equals in the draft no matter what titles they held. But I'm going by what transpired during the recent drafts.
2001-2003 when Wanny was "supposed" to be in complete control: 3 starting players (Chambers, Greenwood, & McMichael), 2 possible starters if they can stay healthy (Moore & Bell), the rest backups (Minor, McKinney, Smith, Whitley & Jenkins). 10 of 22 picks currently on the roster.
2004 when RS was "supposed" to be in complete control: IMO he came away with 2 future starters (Carey & Poole), 2 highly probable future starters (Hadnot & Pope) and one special team standout (Bua). 5 of 6 draft picks on roster.
IMO there is a big difference in the picks made between the 3 years under Wanny to one under RS. Until the players from the 2004 draft prove me wrong, my conclusion will remain Rick's player evaluations weren't the problem but Wanny's use of the information was.
Rick shouldn't be fired for his long time association with Wanny. Saban should fire Rick only if they can't work together.

 

[Megatron]

Why throw away a pretty astute pro-football scout? I'm sure when Saban makes clear what types of players he is looking for, Rick will be able to find them.

 

[3P]

From the horse's mouth :D

I’ve been very pleased with the way our personnel people have organized the information for the staff that we have and for myself relative to what we can get done from an evaluation standpoint this week at the Senior Bowl.

...I’m very pleased with the information, the way it’s been presented to me and I think it’s helped us be effective in the way we can come to practice here and make some evaluations as a staff which I think is critical for us moving forward.

I rest my case.

 

[Dbergan]

From the horse's mouth :D




I rest my case.

Yeah, I read that as well. Of particular interest was Sabans comment that his "scouts" under Rick hit the nail on the head w/ regard to the LSU players that were under Saban. I think this alone has made Saban a believer that Ricks staff and system is a winner.