Cutler's rising stock getting out of Fin's reach may not be such a bad thing...

[endorphin]

His elevated status is based upon his showing in practice, and an appreciation of the natural skills and intelligence he possesses, which make him an excellent prospect. His view of Whitehurst's 1/3 of a game versus Cutlers 1/3 of a game is naive and frankly ignorant. I can show you many a game of Dan Marino's, or any other QB for that matter, where they played poorly for 1/3 of that said game, only to play with great prowess the rest of the game. Now by your and Hugo's logic, if you only saw the 1/3 of a where Marino might have struggled, that would be relevent to you and Hugo in evaluating Marino as a QB, But it would not be an accurate assessment of the QB.

Conversely, you and Hugo might have watched Jay Fiedler play spotless against the Cowboys on thanksgiving a few years ago, and off that one performance judged him an excellent QB, once again, you would have been mistaken.

Point being, there is much more to evaluating the long term prospects of a QB than watching a QB play1/3 of college bowl game, on a team, and with coaches, and a playbook, with which he is not familar.

If you don't understand that, I'm afraid I can't help you, I'll guess you'll always be associated with the kneejerk reaction crowd.

Wow BF, No reason to be on the attack!!! It is just an opinion, I respect yours…

I NEVER evaluated JC off of 1/3rd of a game. There is a simple “objective†comparison made as to JC’s performance compared to CW’s in THAT GAME. Whitehurst clearly outperformed JC in THAT GAME…that is objective, not subjective.

I won’t waste my time with the Jay Fiedler diatribe.

I have stated that I believe JC is the 2nd best QB in this draft (IMO) which does not have a lot of superior QB talent in it. Kneejerk my friend has nothing to do with this post; unless you are referring to selling the farm to possibly overpay for JC in the 5-10 range, which I would not do.

 

[BlueFin]

I agree with you Blue...but then again...you shouldn't use it to improve a players standing also...but we know that happened to Rivers and other players that played well at the senior Bowl. Not only do we fans have numerous opinions...but history has shown us that scouts and G.M.'s do as well. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

No, not the game, but the practices are a form of affirmation for the scouts that a QB has the big time skills and intelligence they are looking for.

Now we disagree...Cutlers stock was rising long before he played and practiced in the Senior Bowl...that rise was created by pure hype by so called experts and the media...kinda like monkey see. Ever notice that when when a few say something about a player...it seems to grow..as time goes by...but on draft day when it counts...reality hits. This happens every year...as long as I can remember watching drafts...there's always a few players that get attention...rightfully so or not.

I find this post amusing, it seems as if you have this notion that 6 months ago there was a rankings board accepted by all as to where all these players slotted in from the publics perception , and where they would be drafted.

In reality, it is not until late in the college season that serious thought begins to take shape about who is really available and where they rank, these ranking get adjusted by workouts, practices, the combine and numerous interviews.

I for one, back in the middle of the college season proclaimed Jay Cutler a first round pick, the fact that many in the PUBLIC had not heard of him or seen him play is the reason he appeared to come out of nowhere, but I can assure you the teams scouting departments were well aware of Jay Cutler.

You act like HYPE is the only reason this guy is considered a high first rounder now, when in fact, the reason is that the public in general has only recently become aware of this excellent prospect, Because those in the know are now talking about him.

Some of us knew long ago how good he was.

 

[Motion]

I for one, back in the middle of the college season proclaimed Jay Cutler a first round pick, the fact that many in the PUBLIC had not heard of him or seen him play is the reason he appeared to come out of nowhere, but I can assure you the teams scouting departments were well aware of Jay Cutler.

You act like HYPE is the only reason this guy is considered a high first rounder now, when in fact, the reason is that the public in general has only recently become aware of this excellent prospect, Because those in the know are now talking about him.

Some of us knew long ago how good he was.

:wink:

 

[endorphin]

I find this post amusing, it seems as if you have this notion that 6 months ago there was a rankings board accepted by all as to where all these players slotted in from the publics perception , and where they would be drafted.

In reality, it is not until late in the college season that serious thought begins to take shape about who is really available and where they rank, these ranking get adjusted by workouts, practices, the combine and numerous interviews.

I for one, back in the middle of the college season proclaimed Jay Cutler a first round pick, the fact that many in the PUBLIC had not heard of him or seen him play is the reason he appeared to come out of nowhere, but I can assure you the teams scouting departments were well aware of Jay Cutler.

You act like HYPE is the only reason this guy is considered a high first rounder now, when in fact, the reason is that the public in general has only recently become aware of this excellent prospect, Because those in the know are now talking about him.

Some of us knew long ago how good he was.

BF, I agree with much of what you say here. I for one had not heard of JC until I started to read about him here. I live in So. Cal. So I have been flooded with Matt Leinhart banter…

This though is why I am so perplexed about his continued rise in value since the very time you state (late in the college season) that values are put on these kids. Vandy’s last game was Nov 19th with no bowl appearance…besides the Senior Bowl, what other workouts, practices, or numerous interviews have occurred?

I’m really trying to understand the continued increase in his value since then, not questioning his abilities. With MOST everything I have read, not seen, I would be happy grabbing him at 16.

 

[Motion]

BF, I agree with much of what you say here. I for one had not heard of JC until I started to read about him here. I live in So. Cal. So I have been flooded with Matt Leinhart banter…

This though is why I am so perplexed about his continued rise in value since the very time you state (late in the college season) that values are put on these kids. Vandy’s last game was Nov 19th with no bowl appearance…besides the Senior Bowl, what other workouts, practices, or numerous interviews have occurred?

I’m really trying to understand the continued increase in his value since then, not questioning his abilities. With MOST everything I have read, not seen, I would be happy grabbing him at 16.

I think you gotta look at it this way. How much draft prospect talk do you hear during the season? The reason there is so much "hype" is because its that time of year when teams and fans start looking to the draft. Its really that simple IMO.

 

[svnrdr]

Wow BF, No reason to be on the attack!!! It is just an opinion, I respect yours…

I NEVER evaluated JC off of 1/3rd of a game. There is a simple “objective” comparison made as to JC’s performance compared to CW’s in THAT GAME. Whitehurst clearly outperformed JC in THAT GAME…that is objective, not subjective.

I won’t waste my time with the Jay Fiedler diatribe.

I have stated that I believe JC is the 2nd best QB in this draft (IMO) which does not have a lot of superior QB talent in it. Kneejerk my friend has nothing to do with this post; unless you are referring to selling the farm to possibly overpay for JC in the 5-10 range, which I would not do.

There are a plenty of people here too interested in defending their view that they become closed minded to anyone else's.

Cutler is a bit of an unknown nationally who has come on strong recently. He could very well be a franchise QB. NOT trying to stir the pot, but didn't Ryan Leaf have all the tools too?

 

[Motion]

There are a plenty of people here too interested in defending their view that they become closed minded to anyone else's.

Cutler is a bit of an unknown nationally who has come on strong recently. He could very well be a franchise QB. NOT trying to stir the pot, but didn't Ryan Leaf have all the tools too?

There are also plenty of people that doubt the unkown. Leinart and Young have just as much chance of being the next Leaf as Cutler.

 

[nopony]

There are also plenty of people that doubt the unkown. Leinart and Young have just as much chance of being the next Leaf as Cutler.

Actually, they don't. That's the point. He may or may not have a ceiling that is as high, but he absolutely has more risk.

He has many more unknowns that either of those two and teams are scrambling to try and find the answers. they don't know how he will do on a big stage when the game is on the line.

They don't know if better recievers and line would raise his accuracy enough to be competitive with those two.

They don't know if his decision making will be sound when all other factors are equal.

They don't know if he has the intangibles to pull off the position or if he's another gunslinger flop like so many before him.

Young and Leinart have answered many of these questions by competing personally on the highest level in elite games. Cutler hasn't.

Could he anwer all the questions in the positive? Sure... but nobody KNOWS, because he hasn't proven it.

Yes, everybody has risk. Substantial risk. But not everybody has the same risk.

And to top it off, Cutler compares much more to Leaf than either Leinart or Young. He is a guy shooting up charts based largely on size and a strong arm. That should send off an alarm to anybody evaluating him.

Not saying he's leaf. Few are. But there are most definitely more questions and more rick around Cutler than the other two.

 

[Motion]

Actually, they don't. That's the point. He may or may not have a ceiling that is as high, but he absolutely has more risk.

He has many more unknowns that either of those two and teams are scrambling to try and find the answers. they don't know how he will do on a big stage when the game is on the line.

They don't know if better recievers and line would raise his accuracy enough to be competitive with those two.

They don't know if his decision making will be sound when all other factors are equal.

They don't know if he has the intangibles to pull off the position or if he's another gunslinger flop like so many before him.

Young and Leinart have answered many of these questions by competing personally on the highest level in elite games. Cutler hasn't.

Could he anwer all the questions in the positive? Sure... but nobody KNOWS, because he hasn't proven it.

Yes, everybody has risk. Substantial risk. But not everybody has the same risk.

And to top it off, Cutler compares much more to Leaf than either Leinart or Young. He is a guy shooting up charts based largely on size and a strong arm. That should send off an alarm to anybody evaluating him.

Not saying he's leaf. Few are. But there are most definitely more questions and more rick around Cutler than the other two.

I see your point in Leinart's case, but not Young. To me the risk with Cutler is the same for other reasons with Young. Its pretty much a given he won't be able to run as easily in the NFL, which puts much more emphasis on his passing game, which needs some polishing. IMO Cutler with the right coaching can be a much better passer than both of them.

 

[nopony]

I see your point in Leinart's case, but not Young. To me the risk with Cutler is the same for other reasons with Young. Its pretty much a given he won't be able to run as easily in the NFL, which puts much more emphasis on his passing game, which needs some polishing. IMO Cutler with the right coaching can be a much better passer than both of them.

Cool, I just want to point out that of the three, Young was the best PASSER last year.

Actually among everybody in college football young was the best passer last year.

He's an even better passing quarterback than he is a running quarterback. I don't know why anybody would think Cutler has a ceiling higher than that.

Vince Young's passing numbers...

Comp % - 65.2 Yards - 3036 YPA - 9.3(!) TDs - 26 INTs - 10 Rating - 163.9

The 1000 yards rushing and 12 rushing TDs are just a bonus.

For comparison:

Cutler:

Comp % - 59.1 Yards - 3073 YPA - 6.65 TDs 21 INTs 9 Rating - 126.07

 

[Motion]

Cool, I just want to point out that of the three, Young was the best PASSER last year.

Actually among everybody in college football young was the best passer last year.

He's an even better passing quarterback than he is a running quarterback. I don't know why anybody would think Cutler has a ceiling higher than that.

Vince Young's passing numbers...

Comp % - 65.2 Yards - 3036 YPA - 9.3(!) TDs - 26 INTs - 10 Rating - 163.9

The 1000 yards rushing and 12 rushing TDs are just a bonus.

For comparison:

Cutler:

Comp % - 59.1 Yards - 3073 YPA - 6.65 TDs 21 INTs 9 Rating - 126.07

Yeah I've seen all the stats, and it really all means squat as far as NFL potential IMO. The debates have all been made, strength of schedule, supporting cast, opposing defenses, etc... NFL is a different game. Will be very interesting to see how they all pan out.

 

[cowtowndick]

Cool, I just want to point out that of the three, Young was the best PASSER last year.

Actually among everybody in college football young was the best passer last year.

He's an even better passing quarterback than he is a running quarterback. I don't know why anybody would think Cutler has a ceiling higher than that.

Vince Young's passing numbers...

Comp % - 65.2 Yards - 3036 YPA - 9.3(!) TDs - 26 INTs - 10 Rating - 163.9

The 1000 yards rushing and 12 rushing TDs are just a bonus.

For comparison:

Cutler:

Comp % - 59.1 Yards - 3073 YPA - 6.65 TDs 21 INTs 9 Rating - 126.07

nopony, are we gonna do this again??? just kidding - i have to say i've enjoyed our discussions very much. re cutler v. young v. leinhart, my bet on who will be the bust is leinhart, for all the reasons i posted last night. something about him i don't trust.

 

[BlueFin]

Actually, they don't. That's the point. He may or may not have a ceiling that is as high, but he absolutely has more risk.

He has many more unknowns that either of those two and teams are scrambling to try and find the answers. they don't know how he will do on a big stage when the game is on the line.

They don't know if better recievers and line would raise his accuracy enough to be competitive with those two.

They don't know if his decision making will be sound when all other factors are equal.

They don't know if he has the intangibles to pull off the position or if he's another gunslinger flop like so many before him.

Young and Leinart have answered many of these questions by competing personally on the highest level in elite games. Cutler hasn't.

Could he anwer all the questions in the positive? Sure... but nobody KNOWS, because he hasn't proven it.

Yes, everybody has risk. Substantial risk. But not everybody has the same risk.

And to top it off, Cutler compares much more to Leaf than either Leinart or Young. He is a guy shooting up charts based largely on size and a strong arm. That should send off an alarm to anybody evaluating him.

Not saying he's leaf. Few are. But there are most definitely more questions and more rick around Cutler than the other two.

Actually, Leinart is exactly the type of player that should scare you more than a Cutler.

Leinart has been surrounded by a roster full of NFL talent throughout his USC career, while he has managed games having the most talented team in college football very well, so did Ken Dorsey and Danny Wuerfel.

Like the latter two, Leinart has questions regarding whether his arm is big enough to make the NFL throws, his mobility is mediocre, and he already has a brace on his leg.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

i've yet to hear anyone credible bash cutler for his senior bowl performance. i believe mel kiper called it "solid." too many "wannabe kipers" are forming their opinions solely on the senior bowl game, whereas scouts have watched him all week in practice, as well as a pretty good amount of his games at vanderbilt. it's pretty obvious that the only game a lot of people here (and elsewhere as well) have watched was the senior bowl.

Actually, Leinart is exactly the type of player that should scare you more than a Cutler.

Leinart has been surrounded by a roster full of NFL talent throughout his USC career, while he has managed games having the most talented team in college football very well, so did Ken Dorsey and Danny Wuerfel.

Like the latter two, Leinart has questions regarding whether his arm is big enough to make the NFL throws, his mobility is mediocre, and he already has a brace on his leg.

leinart's arm is adequate enough. his mobility is better than cutler's behind the line of scrimmage. the brace on his leg is something norm chow had all of his quarterbacks wear as a safety measure.

 

[Motion]

i've yet to hear anyone credible bash cutler for his senior bowl performance. i believe mel kiper called it "solid." too many "wannabe kipers" are forming their opinions solely on the senior bowl game, whereas scouts have watched him all week in practice, as well as a pretty good amount of his games at vanderbilt. it's pretty obvious that the only game a lot of people here (and elsewhere as well) have watched was the senior bowl.

Couldn't agree more.