Dolphins have 'expectation of mastery' for quarterback Tua Tagovailoa | Page 14 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Dolphins have 'expectation of mastery' for quarterback Tua Tagovailoa

RichmondWeb said:
Oh Yeah! Thanks. Now I remember...

We have had exactly 1 HC who lasted more than three years, Dave Wannstedt who stayed four years, (and the fans didn't like his conservative approach very much) since Don Shula retired in 1995. Mike McDaniel will be the 2nd.

The new HC Waltz! It never works for any team that is rebuilding. By the time they get the players they want,.... Seeyaa. And the next guy has all of the wrong guys for his systems.

The "Cleveland Shuffle".

George Siefert made it work but he had a pretty good roster.
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And IIRC, Siefert was an internal hire. He just maintained the course, as opposed to rebuilding in his own philosophy.
 
RichmondWeb said:
Oh Yeah! Thanks. Now I remember...

We have had exactly 1 HC who lasted more than three years, Dave Wannstedt who stayed four years, (and the fans didn't like his conservative approach very much) since Don Shula retired in 1995. Mike McDaniel will be the 2nd.

The new HC Waltz! It never works for any team that is rebuilding. By the time they get the players they want,.... Seeyaa. And the next guy has all of the wrong guys for his systems.

The "Cleveland Shuffle".

George Siefert made it work but he had a pretty good roster.
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More like The Curley Shuffle

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danmarino7051 said:
I’m not completely on the opposite spectrum here, but I think coaching is nearly, if not the same, as important as players. We’ve seen guys go from All Pros with a great HC to average on other teams with average HC’s. That’s not to say a great HC can win it all with scrubs, but I think great HC’s can win with players other HC’s may not.

Bottom line though, firing a HC every 3-4 years is just dumb, IMO. There are certainly reasons to fire a HC quickly, but when you have the success that McD has had, in his first 3 years as a HC, it’s way too early to give up on him.

The problem is this instant gratification attitude by fans nowadays. Continuity is a huge part of success. Sure, we see some HC’s come in a win it all very quickly, but to your point, the team already had great players and these players fit the HC’s scheme really well. McD has his warts, all HC’s do, but an objective look at what he’s accomplished in a short period needs to be considered. Experience isn’t going to hurt him. Allowing him to get more than 3 years of experience under his belt, 3 drafts under his belt (and also giving it time to see what he can do without an inordinate amount of injuries), should be considered.
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Another point . . . it's common for a top team to hire a new HC (following retirement) and that HC is 'successful.' DUH!! The talent is there and most asst coaches remain. Not true with bottom feeders. New HC, new staff, poor talent. worse, bottom teams usually are picking from the newbies. The in-demand HC candidates have proven records, are sought after by a number of teams and are loathe to sign on to the '24 Browns or Giants.
Thus, the cycle repeats. Poor talent. Untested HC. New staff. And people are always surprised the 'new' team is similar to the old team.
Finally, luck. Bottom teams draft high and have 1st pick of 'can't miss' players (particularly QBs). Top teams get their QBs later in R1 or lower rounds. We know, it's luck. No team said 'golly, we know Lamar will be elite, but we'll wait for the 32nd pick because no one will take him.'
 
Yeah, if a guy doesn't have gross and obvious flaws and doesn't totally irk everyone around him you probably look to keep him and let him build out a staff.

The goal after all, is to keep the offensive & defensive schemes in place which has massive add-on effects for talent acquisition and overall preparedness both in the broader sense as well as in particular high-consequence moments.

Leadership doesn't have to be perfect to be worthy. The goal isn't to find the perfect HC or GM. It's to find the people capable of overseeing the teams continuous evolution year after year.

Thus far, Grier has shown capable of going in many different directions. I'd like to see him find a consistent vision which I think we have over the last couple years. The draft has settled down and our recent approach to free agency seem very reasonable.

Likewise, McDaniel has shown a clear ability to evolve his offense every single year while giving his feature guys career years.

2022: Hill & Waddle
2023: Tua & Mostert
2024: Smith & Achane

Given that we're now going into year #2 of Anthony Weaver and his defense it would seem "leadership" is actually right where we want it in Miami.

The only people complaining are the ones who are entirely convinced by wins and losses...they're taking a 'wait & see' approach, which is fine, but they'll have to come around if the results are there this season.

It's why I keep saying this is going to be a great year for us. One way or the other, we'll be in general agreement. If things go well, we'll be excited about the GM, the HC, the coaching staff as a whole and many of the developing players on the roster.
 
Zounds said:
I've been watching/following the NFL for 30+ years now, and the more I watch, the more I realize that talent trumps coaching. Coaching is no doubt very important, but in recent years we've seen some of the best coaches fail because they didnt have elite talent (Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Pete Carroll, Jim Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan come to mind). We've also seen lower tier coaches have a lot of success because they have elite talent (Zac Taylor, Dan Quinn, Kevin Oconnell, etc). Point is that turning over coaches every 3-4 years isnt nearly as impactful as acquiring taleneted players. I am not advocating for or against McDaniel, but I dont believe replacing him is going to make much of a difference. We still have 9-10 win talent on our roster. Which isnt good enough.
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New coaches have unique ideas and past success which is why they are hired. But elite players are only elite in systems which match their skill set. When a new coach comes in, he has to redo his roster to maximize his systems. Good coaches need 2 or more seasons to retool their roster. Rookie coaches usually need longer than that. For example, veteran coach Pete Carroll should have the Raiders rolling in 2-3 years. He has to redo the whole defensive roster if he wants another "Legion of Boom". He has Chip Kelly to redo the offense which is nice; Kelly has plenty of experience. Rookie HCs often can only attract rookie assistants. And there is often an inexperienced GM involved and perhaps a new QB, forming a complete leadership cluster****. Kelly will have to flush the offensive roster, plus acquire a better QB. Adding a young QB adds time to Carroll's rebuild. The Raiders should be pretty good in 3 years, but they are in a strong division.

Three years ago, in Miami, we (the Dolphins) hired a rookie head coach with inexperienced assistants. We have a stable QB and a journeyman GM which is more than most tear-down teams have. After 3 educational years the offense looks pretty good. However, each season we changed our DC and defensive system, which has set our team back on defense. The defense and Special Teams are about a year behind where I had hoped. Mike McD is at least a year behind in learning his HC responsibilities.

It takes 3 years to get each phase of the team ready to go: (KEY)

1 = Start From Scratch
2 = 2 More years to develop
3 = 1 More year to develop
4 = GTG. Ready to Build On


2025 Dolphins Staff and Roster:

QB = 3
Offense = 3
OC = 3

Defense = 2
Special Teams = 2
DC = 3

HC = 2
GM = 3
Chemistry = 2


Retain 2025 Dolphins Staff and Roster 2026: (Aqua View)

QB = 4
Offense = 4
OC = 4

Defense = 3
Special Teams = 3
DC = 4

HC = 3
GM = 3 4?
Chemistry = 3


Fire McD, and move Weaver to HC 2026:

QB Tua = 2
QB New = 1
Offense = 1
OC = 1

Defense = 2
Special Teams = 2
DC= 2

HC = 1
GM = 3
Chemistry = 2


Fire everyone and hire best available:

QB Tua = 2
QB New = 1
Offense = 1
OC = 1

Defense = 1
S/T = 2
S/T New K or P = 1
HC = 1
GM Grier = 2
New GM = 1
Chemistry = 1

Not Where I Want To Be. Way too much time and money has been invested to throw it all away now.
 
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Avigatorx said:
Jamarcus Russell could throw 60 yards from his knees.
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He had an IQ of around 60, though.

Elite arm talent is desirable, is it not?

Obviously, a rocket arm alone isn't going to make a good QB, but I find the comparison.........odd......
 
Mach2 said:
He had an IQ of around 60, though.

Elite arm talent is desirable, is it not?

Obviously, a rocket arm alone isn't going to make a good QB, but I find the comparison.........odd......
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I agree.

My point was that arm strength isnt the benchmark for QB success.

No one will complain about having a strong arm, but hyping a prospect strictly on arm strength is misguided.
 
Mello Yello said:
...but you can make it through their answers to questions and they're smart enough to give answers that fit the question / context. That confidence and clarity builds charisma.

OTOH, Tua is more often just kind of weird. Beyond the stammering and lack of conviction, his answers to questions often just give away too much...things which really shouldn't be part of the public projection. We can all agree that he's too confessional.

I get what @Atila is saying. The guy is kind of hard to root for. Charisma is a thing and he's always been less charismatic and more honest...but that's not necessarily a good thing in terms of leadership.

Some people hide their distaste for Tua behind an infinite list of 'football' complaints but in reality he's just not that well-liked among a lot of fans who are really 50/50 on the guy. You can cite jersey sales all you want but I've never met a Dolphins fan in real life that liked anything about Tua beyond the passing efficiency. There's just no personality there and what is seems kind of goofy.
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Listening to his interviews it is hard to miss how unintelligent he comes off. May or may not affect what his ceiling as a QB might be. For me, the "show me the money" announcement at practice was where I lost respect and soured on Tua. I also don't have much faith that he'll lead this team to meaningful success come playoff type games based on his track record. Would love for him to prove me wrong. I'll keep rooting for him as long as he wears the uniform.
 
njFinsForever said:
Listening to his interviews it is hard to miss how unintelligent he comes off. May or may not affect what his ceiling as a QB might be. For me, the "show me the money" announcement at practice was where I lost respect and soured on Tua. I also don't have much faith that he'll lead this team to meaningful success come playoff type games based on his track record. Would love for him to prove me wrong. I'll keep rooting for him as long as he wears the uniform.
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It’s funny how this fanbase loves to talk about needing to get “tougher” than you have fans “souring” about a joke from a famous movie. Seems pretty soft to me.

First of all intelligence isn’t determined by how one speaks unless you are judging people on your social standard of expecting everyone to talk like an educated white guy. I’d take some time to educate yourself on Samoan culture, they tend to talk slower, more relaxed with pauses than I suppose than what your standards of ignorance allows you to interpret as “intelligent”.
 
McDouche throwing screens behind the sticks on 1st and goal might be an area where he can learn or improve
 
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