Dolphins sign Jaguars wr Stephen Williams | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Dolphins sign Jaguars wr Stephen Williams

Again: How did those yards occur? In a WR that's getting single coverage w. the other teams second or third best DB? Or in other WRs getting top DB plus help on most downs?

Stats mean nothing without context. Anyone that uses stats to puff Hartline as a great WR isn't looking at context.

It's amazing that someone who claims to want the team to succeed at a high level would be so attached to rank mediocrity at skill positions.

LD

I think you can also say anyone who just uses stats to rip a player means little out of context. To me when Hartline, or any other receiver, catches the ball on the three yard line and the team runs it in on the following plays that is no different than him scoring the touchdown himself. So saying Hartline only scored 4 touchdowns without taking into account the ones he helped set up is misleading.

Some people see a stat that suggest Hartline isn't a good player and want to say it's a solid stat, while any stat that says he's a good player is poor or out of context.
 
Hartline had back to back 1000 yard seasons with a QB that can throw to zero separation windows. Period.

Hartline did ZERO at WR that any middle-of-the-road WR couldn't have done. He made very few plays that were above average.

Hartline got yards that the route and his QB got him. He did not make more out of the catch after the catch.

He got worse the closer to the endzone he got. He made his hay between the 20s. He disappeared against high quality D.

People talking yards for a WR need to look at how those yards happened. What jumps out on tape skill wise w. Hartline?

I'll tell you: The ONLY thing that jumps out on tape are things that are negative: Falling down. Poor YAC. Not fighting through to ball when CBs sit over his predictable routes. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Hartline is to the 2 what Bess was to the 3. A WR that limits the offense while supposedly "getting his yards."

LD

Bro, I always respect your savvy insight, but I urge you to watch that tape again.

When I look, here is what I see:

1. One of the best sideline receivers in the league. He runs near perfect outs and catches balls thrown to uninterceptable spots out of bounds in front of the CB while still keeping his feet 8n bounds and securing he catch. It is one of Tannehill's best throws combining his timing and accuracy with great velocity and a near zero chance of interception. Hartline is one of the best in the league at catching that route.

2. Excellent route running. In a rythem throwing offense route running and timing are essential.

3. Timing. Knowing when and where to break is at least as important as how quickly you can accelerate out of your breaks. Coincidentally, this is something that Jervis Landry also does well and helps him get goo separation.

4. Good hands. Not great hands, but very goo and light years ahead of Wallace's, Matthews' or any of our TE's hands ... yes that includes Clay who does not have good hands. On last year team only Gibson was in his category hands-wise.

5. Good downfield blocker. If we have healthy guys catching the medium routes this can be very helpful ... or if we ever find an OL that can open holes for RB's ...

People love to put Hartline down, but he does a lot of good things. I encourage everyone to look at his entire route, not just the part at the end where his good route running, separation and timing make it look like an easy uncontested ball placed in perfect position for an easy catch.

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Doesnt Hickey know we have Brian Hartline

and what exactly does signing this guy have to do with brian hartline? why not mathews or any of the other wr's on the team?

did you just draw a name out of a hat or what?

you really throw out some head scratchers SPECH. so much that i am getting skull fragments under my finger nails.
 
Bro, I always respect your savvy insight, but I urge you to watch that tape again.

When I look, here is what I see:

1. One of the best sideline receivers in the league. He runs near perfect outs and catches balls thrown to uninterceptable spots out of bounds in front of the CB while still keeping his feet 8n bounds and securing he catch. It is one of Tannehill's best throws combining his timing and accuracy with great velocity and a near zero chance of interception. Hartline is one of the best in the league at catching that route.

2. Excellent route running. In a rythem throwing offense route running and timing are essential.

3. Timing. Knowing when and where to break is at least as important as how quickly you can accelerate out of your breaks. Coincidentally, this is something that Jervis Landry also does well and helps him get goo separation.

4. Good hands. Not great hands, but very goo and light years ahead of Wallace's, Matthews' or any of our TE's hands ... yes that includes Clay who does not have good hands. On last year team only Gibson was in his category hands-wise.

5. Good downfield blocker. If we have healthy guys catching the medium routes this can be very helpful ... or if we ever find an OL that can open holes for RB's ...

People love to put Hartline down, but he does a lot of good things. I encourage everyone to look at his entire route, not just the part at the end where his good route running, separation and timing make it look like an easy uncontested ball placed in perfect position for an easy catch.

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NO!!!!

He's either the greatest WR in the league or complete dog crap, get off the fence and pick a side!!
 
People love to put Hartline down, but he does a lot of good things.

hartline would be a pro bowler if he had a qb like brady or either manning, rodgers, etc....... .

no one wants to admit that our qb DOES have some issues. its easier to blame ALL of our pass catchers [especially wallace] than to admit the qb everyone has labeled a franchise qb since day one has some things to work on.
 
Bro, I always respect your savvy insight, but I urge you to watch that tape again.

When I look, here is what I see:

1. One of the best sideline receivers in the league. He runs near perfect outs and catches balls thrown to uninterceptable spots out of bounds in front of the CB while still keeping his feet 8n bounds and securing he catch. It is one of Tannehill's best throws combining his timing and accuracy with great velocity and a near zero chance of interception. Hartline is one of the best in the league at catching that route.

2. Excellent route running. In a rythem throwing offense route running and timing are essential.

3. Timing. Knowing when and where to break is at least as important as how quickly you can accelerate out of your breaks. Coincidentally, this is something that Jervis Landry also does well and helps him get goo separation.

4. Good hands. Not great hands, but very goo and light years ahead of Wallace's, Matthews' or any of our TE's hands ... yes that includes Clay who does not have good hands. On last year team only Gibson was in his category hands-wise.

5. Good downfield blocker. If we have healthy guys catching the medium routes this can be very helpful ... or if we ever find an OL that can open holes for RB's ...

People love to put Hartline down, but he does a lot of good things. I encourage everyone to look at his entire route, not just the part at the end where his good route running, separation and timing make it look like an easy uncontested ball placed in perfect position for an easy catch.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I don't deny that Hartline does some things well. But the way I look at it is that he HAS to do these things because he's too limited in talent to make better use of the field. Look at how many patterns Hartline has to get open by dashing back to the LOS or double and triple moves NOT to go vertical or slant vertical, but to dash horizontal or going out of bounds or back to the LOS -- it's all he's got. And it's one reason why he leads CBs into INTS and pick 6s. He has quick slant if CB is sitting off. And after that, pretty much every pattern isn't vertical or threatening the D.

Not saying he's a horrible person or that he doesn't make tippy toe sideline catches well. But on those catches -- man. Look at how many times he has a zero separation window. Look at how many times he CANNOT threaten vertically, dashing back to LOS or horizontal or out of bounds. Look at how the TIMING of the route and having a QB that can throw to a half yard window or less --- how THAT makes the completion. How if he is knocked off his timing the route either doesn't get completed or he can't fight through to the ball. ZERO fight for the ball. Poor catch radius.

The routes, the timing, and having a QB that can hit him when he gets half yard or less open. Those things are also the things that make him a WR that limits the team big time.

Because the number 2 position needs to be filled with a WR that can do similar things decently yet also get open on his own talent, when push comes to shove.

Please know that I'm not hating on Hartline as a PERSON or a player. He's always playing w. his all, it seems like. And he's well spoken.

It's just that as clearly as I could see Bess limiting the 3, even when people were puffing his stats, the same thing is so evident w. Hartline at the 2. To me it's glaring. I don't expect everyone to see the same thing. But to me it's Ireland's mediocrity at filling skill positions all over again.

Does Hartline do a lot of good things? Yes. But is he a GREAT blocker? No way. Decent. Not great. Simply because he's not very physical. Does he run great outs? Yes. Slants. No. Decent not great -- again, not physical enough to battle for the ball when a DB jumps the route. Watched DBs bait Tanny using Hartline. Multiple times last year. Simply can't be done if he's a great WR.

We may have to disagree on this one, until someone comes along and plays the position like Gibson played the 3 so much better than Bess.

LD
 
With a rookie right tackle and possibly a rookie guard, I think your going to need Moreno in the backfield for extra protection

another reason hickey drafted ju'wan james. he excels at being able to BLOCK ON AN ISLAND. he rarely needs any help and took on some of the very best in the sec and dominated.

plug and play, in the richmond webb, vernon carey mold. [james will be a better player then carey]. we will see how the RG pans out but james is good to go.
 
Yeah, that YAC stat is a very important one. Hartline only averaged 4.1. That was the same as AJ Green, better than Andre Jojnson (3.8), Victor Cruz (3.6), .2 worse than Vincent Jackson, and .4 worse than Fitz. Don't want any of those guys either. lol

SOUTHBEACH: i'm telling you, ya better stop with the facts and common sense. its a big no-no here and you could receive a public board lashing.

it disrupts the harmonious vibe man!!! :oops:
 


another reason hickey drafted ju'wan james. he excels at being able to BLOCK ON AN ISLAND. he rarely needs any help and took on some of the very best in the sec and dominated.

plug and play, in the richmond webb, vernon carey mold. [james will be a better player then carey]. we will see how the RG pans out but james is good to go.

Long term good to go, maybe. But let's not pretend that he is gonna struggle some at first. SEC is a good football conference but it's not like the NFL. He might see an NFL starting talent LDE once every three games. Now it will be every game.

It may take him awhile but if by the end of the year he's playing his best football, that's a win.

LD
 


another reason hickey drafted ju'wan james. he excels at being able to BLOCK ON AN ISLAND. he rarely needs any help and took on some of the very best in the sec and dominated.

plug and play, in the richmond webb, vernon carey mold. [james will be a better player then carey]. we will see how the RG pans out but james is good to go.

True but, the "SILENT Majority" are with me. LOL
 
Long term good to go, maybe. But let's not pretend that he is gonna struggle some at first. SEC is a good football conference but it's not like the NFL. He might see an NFL starting talent LDE once every three games. Now it will be every game.

It may take him awhile but if by the end of the year he's playing his best football, that's a win.

LD

Yeah, and I have to think that opposing D's are going to be bringing their best pass rushers away from Albert to James side, as well as blitz packages designed for the rookie. It will be a true trial by FIRE.
 
Yeah, and I have to think that opposing D's are going to be bringing their best pass rushers away from Albert to James side, as well as blitz packages designed for the rookie. It will be a true trial by FIRE.

I agree. But it's one thing to have an area of "weakness" that is 1. Located to one position on the OL (mostly) and 2. Getting better game by game, than to have sadly limited players all over the OL, taken advantage of increasingly more as the weeks go by, simply because their limitations are vastly exposed with each passing game.

So yes. Trial by fire. But hopefully forged by fire into steel!

LD
 
The RT will get help with a chip from the TE.

Have to expect improved blocking from the TE position. Last year, we sucked. Look for Sims to step forward, and I believe Clay will be better as well. Not counting on anyone else but, Egnew "could" surprise.
 
I agree. But it's one thing to have an area of "weakness" that is 1. Located to one position on the OL (mostly) and 2. Getting better game by game, than to have sadly limited players all over the OL, taken advantage of increasingly more as the weeks go by, simply because their limitations are vastly exposed with each passing game.

So yes. Trial by fire. But hopefully forged by fire into steel!

LD

I'm hoping along with ya. A grizzly old vet at RG to lend a hand would not be a bad thing to help James along in his first year. There are none out there now but, I belive there will be one or two availabe in late cuts. This would make me feel a whole lot better on our OL this year.
 
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