Dolphins use Read option on 54% of snaps vs Pats, Complete Lazor Offense Breakdown:

[DearbornDolfan]

That's a good question. The main way that you can tell is that Tannehill (and Foles, and most of the quarterbacks running this kind of play) are not actually taking the time to read the DE. On a true option the quarterback waits longer -- allowing the defender to get closer and commit -- before he makes a decision. On these plays the decision is being made almost instantly. The defender doesn't really have the time to make a decision that -- in a normal option -- precedes the quarterback's choice.

A good read option QB doesn't need but half a second to the DE. I've never seen Mariota at Oregon or any K-State QB hesitate when they make their read. The QBs that hesitate are the ones that play in an offensive system like AirRaid (Mike Leach, Dana Holgerson) that have incorporated zone-read and option concepts into their offense. It's not second nature to them.

I think there's also something to be said for the fact -- as Awsi pointed out -- that Tannehill never chose to run on Sunday. If it were a true option, that's not something you would expect.

Zone-read and option running games are about doing what the defense gives you. Every time I saw a shot that showed the backside read player, he was sitting at home.

This is really closer to a play action that helps the run than a true "read option". I'll grant there might be the possibility that Tannehill can keep the ball under certain circumstances but I have seen this kind of run action from the Eagles (and other teams) before and even on plays where it seemed pretty obvious that the quarterback should keep the ball, it gets handed off. But the basic answer is that I don't think it's a true read option because it looks very little like a true read option.

The real tell is what the defense is doing. If the NFL teams that run this on the regular were faking it, the defense would load 8 into the box and ignore the QB. That's not what happened. With only a couple notable exceptions, the Patriots played fundamentally sound football against the zone-read and were simply beat by a possessed Knowshon Moreno.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

I scanned the first line and a half of your earlier post and it sounded like someone screeching so I didn't bother to read the rest.

Good decision on my part.

Sorry, but I'm beyond tired of people that like Awsi and yourself that don't actually know the zone-read delivering opinions as if they're fact. You're confusing people that don't know better and making anybody that knows the zone-read beyond a superficial level roll their eyes.

 

[foozool13]

Lazor is the best hire phins have had since....kacy rodgers, I guess lol? its been a while since we have had an impact hire like this is what i trying to say.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I suppose I have the option of coffee tomorrow. But considering I've never had a sip and I can't fathom the attraction of a hot murky liquid above a heaping glass of ice water, I suspect I'll option elsewhere.

Many of these NFL teams have about as much intention of the quarterback actually keeping that ball as I have of that sip of coffee, but the beauty of read option play fakes is the defense is briefly paralyzed regardless. There are more variables in that type of play fake than in a play fake off a standard run look. Since the quarterback is already in the shotgun several yards behind the line of scrimmage he can hold the fake longer and still be positioned to make an effective throw. We all remember how pathetic it was when Marino all but waved the ball at the running back while backpedaling and scanning downfield the entire time. The read option fake simply looks more legit because the quarterback is mostly stationary, similar to a true handoff on a running play.

It seldom happens in the pros but some college quarterbacks are true masters of carrying out that fake. Best I've seen was Colin Klein executing the stretch option at Kansas State in 2011 and 2012.

I'm sure Tannehill will keep the ball at least once or twice this week. You have to tip your hat occasionally even if you don't mean it. Force the next opponents to respect the fake. Besides, the Bills have an attacking front so the edge rushers will crash and allow the opportunity.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

Many of these NFL teams have about as much intention of the quarterback actually keeping that ball as I have of that sip of coffee, but the beauty of read option play fakes is the defense is briefly paralyzed regardless. There are more variables in that type of play fake than in a play fake off a standard run look. Since the quarterback is already in the shotgun several yards behind the line of scrimmage he can hold the fake longer and still be positioned to make an effective throw. We all remember how pathetic it was when Marino all but waved the ball at the running back while backpedaling and scanning downfield the entire time. The read option fake simply looks more legit because the quarterback is mostly stationary, similar to a true handoff on a running play.

Are we talking play-action or designed RB runs disguised as legit zone-read plays? If the latter, Oregon uses that a lot after Mariota has gashed the defense for a big gain, which is in turn set up by the defense cheating the box on IZR and OZR.

It seldom happens in the pros but some college quarterbacks are true masters of carrying out that fake. Best I've seen was Colin Klein executing the stretch option at Kansas State in 2011 and 2012.

QB Sweep is one of K-State's bread and butter plays in goal line situations, along with QB Power. Klein was so good at it because Coach Snyder is an absolute perfectionist about everything, which is necessary given that they don't have the talent pool of an SEC or Big 12 South team.

I'm sure Tannehill will keep the ball at least once or twice this week. You have to tip your hat occasionally even if you don't mean it. Force the next opponents to respect the fake. Besides, the Bills have an attacking front so the edge rushers will crash and allow the opportunity.

Buffalo is going to be psyched for this game, so I imagine Pandora's Box is going to be kicked firmly open early to take them out of the game emotionally and keep them there.

 

[NBP81]

Wether its a true read option or not, it still serves the same purpose. From a defensive stand point, you still have to respect the "look" regardless, especially when the QB is a legitimate running threat. I mean the opposing D has no idea if its scripted or not, they could guess, but that could get them in trouble. So all the Fins have to do is keep the D honest by actually letting Tannehill run it occasionnally so that it at least seems like an option. But regardless, as long as there are threads like this with people arguing about if its really an option or just your average scripted play, they're doing it right.

EDIT: Great thread Catch22 BTW, hope you do more of these.

 

[Fin Fan in Cali]

Awesome thread bro! Thank you very much for all your efforts.:brewskis:

 

[CalDolFan10x14]

Awesome thread bro! Excellent work and excellent effort! I dunno if we still do this, but these are the kind of threads that belong in "Flippers Finest" or some kind of Finheaven Hall of Fame. At the very least it should get consideration for thread of the year.

 

[catch22]

Wether its a true read option or not, it still serves the same purpose. From a defensive stand point, you still have to respect the "look" regardless, especially when the QB is a legitimate running threat. I mean the opposing D has no idea if its scripted or not, they could guess, but that could get them in trouble. So all the Fins have to do is keep the D honest by actually letting Tannehill run it occasionnally so that it at least seems like an option. But regardless, as long as there are threads like this with people arguing about if its really an option or just your average scripted play, they're doing it right.

EDIT: Great thread Catch22 BTW, hope you do more of these.

This is what I was starting to think as well. All this argument is a testament to how good of an upgrade Lazor is over Sherman.

Any 12 year old girl knew if we were running or passing last year with the Go a go go' fiasco.

Here is my theory relating to our new Read option look plays:

I think Lazor is using a combination based on Ryans comfort level.

1)Some plays are pre-determined read option look plays (designed runs or passes that are meant to look like options)

2) on other downs Lazor is letting Tannhill run "true read option" plays

3)I think Lazor is using sort of a fake it till you make it approach with Ryan Tannehill. Its my opinion that Lazor knows Tannehill needs more time to perfect the read option so he will call more "pre determined read option look" plays early in the season and slowly increase the amount of plays where Ryan has full reigns of the playcall on the fly (true option football) If this theory proves true I commend Lazor as it will give Ryan plenty of practice perfecting all of the possible combos of options before he is asked to actually make tons of extra decisions early in the season (decicions that could impact his health)

I am happy that many of you liked the thread. I might do something again like this from time to time. It forces me to learn more about football which I love!

 

[NBP81]

This is what I was starting to think as well. All this argument is a testament to how good of an upgrade Lazor is over Sherman.

Any 12 year old girl knew if we were running or passing last year with the Go a go go' fiasco.

Here is my theory relating to our new Read option look plays:

I think Lazor is using a combination based on Ryans comfort level.

1)Some plays are pre-determined read option look plays (designed runs or passes that are meant to look like options)

2) on other downs Lazor is letting Tannhill run "true read option" plays

3)I think Lazor is using sort of a fake it till you make it approach with Ryan Tannehill. Its my opinion that Lazor knows Tannehill needs more time to perfect the read option so he will call more "pre determined read option look" plays early in the season and slowly increase the amount of plays where Ryan has full reigns of the playcall on the fly (true option football) If this theory proves true I commend Lazor as it will give Ryan plenty of practice perfecting all of the possible combos of options before he is asked to actually make tons of extra decisions early in the season (decicions that could impact his health)

I am happy that many of you liked the thread. I might do something again like this from time to time. It forces me to learn more about football which I love!

I think this subject is very similar to the Go-Go thing, and also shows the different level of awareness and imagination between both OCs. Because the Go and Go-Go pattern could have been pretty potent if used right. If sherman used it like poker players polarize their range, he could have extracted alot of value from opponents mistakes(over commiting to it). But he never did, and eventually teams figured that in the "he's either very very stupid or he's a genius" expression, he was very very stupid... Much like if the Fins keep on showing this option look without letting tannehill keep it on occasion, teams will figure it out and just ignore the "look" and play acccordingly, which will take away any edge you had and make you very predictable.

 

[Dr. Phin]

"Ryan did not run the ball in this game because he did not need to!"

LOL. Well, that's the glossy way to look at it. The more correct version is that the plays are not true read option. Not even close. I've been watching option football since the wishbone and veer in the late '60s. Those were true option designs, with the quarterback's head up and evaluating the defense at every intersection of the fullback lead or pitch. Tannehill was doing none of that. When it's a true option the distribution is much more even, since naturally the plays will evolve differently with varying emphasis and competence from the defense. In this case we're supposed to believe it's a true option but Tannehill simply never found a situation in which keeping the ball offered the greatest advantage. Believe whatever you want but you're not going to fool a handicapper, particularly someone who used to watch Mildren, Davis, Lott and Holieway keep the ball 20+ times in certain games.

Heck, the Dolphins themselves weren't using the term read option. That in itself is very telling. Tannehill and Philbin said "inside zone" on the post game show, describing the running plays.

I realize that after a victory everything is flowery and we want to believe we're doing magical things out there.

I can't believe people even thought this thread had any credibility and treated as if we were running the read option all day. Really shows the football IQ of this forum...

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Based on what you said above
My question to you and awsi would be this:

How can we as fans know for sure that all these "option look plays" (like the photo I posted two posts up) are actually just pre defined runs or passes amd not "real" options

I am not sure that I can agree that all the plays were pre-defined 100% one way or the other. In preseason practices we heard of option plays where tanne pulled off huge QB runs when he saw the coverage or the edge rusher over pursue towards the RB or when he saw a huge hole. Of course during practice no one can hit him so maybe he was just being tentative about keeping the ball himself and running in a game where he saw miller and moreno were getting big gains on every play.

Again I am no expert I just want to know how you guys (you and Awsi) know for sure what's going on.

Post 3.

Re-watching the NE game, Lazor was definitely holding back in the 2nd half. On those read/options, the DE's for NE were crashing down, and Tannehill had big gains off the edge if he wanted them - which leads me to believe that they weren't true read/options (Malzahn does that a lot). If Buffalo proves to be a tougher test for Moreno and Miller, I'd look for Tannehill to keep in on 3 or 4 of those plays. If necessary, I'd also look for the jet and fly sweeps - maybe with L. Miller.

http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...lls-20&p=1065153191&highlight=#post1065153191

Based on the reaction of Tannehill to the reads, it's pretty clear that the vast majority (if not all) of those looks were predetermined handoffs. There may have been a handful of true reads, but it'd be pure speculation to put a number on it or to say that it happened at all. What we do know is that Tannehill handed off multiple times on plays where the read would tell him to keep it.

 

[Rev Kev]

It doesn't have to be a "true" read adoption the fact that Tanny took the first snap against (I believe Dallas in preseason) for 7 yards put every defense on notice that the OC is developing a nuclear Bomb for the AFCE as Ryan gets more comfortable with "keeping" it - defenses will have to defend against it - the opportunities will also by time in the passing game to open up the deep ball

 

[catch22]

I can't believe people even thought this thread had any credibility and treated as if we were running the read option all day. Really shows the football IQ of this forum...

As to credibility, I never claimed to be an expert on read option football, (I am definitely not) all I did was make a log of what formations and looks I saw in the entire game and posted the results on here for discussion.

I didn't make a ton of proclamations about whether or whether not the plays were actually true options.


Honestly I was just wanting to learn more about how our offense is being called.

I spent a few hours watching every play and taking notes. Sort of a dick way of you to write 20 words just talking ****.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

I don't think it's fair to knock the entire post because of a technicality. The principles serves that Tannehill did replace the cut on several instances. Our linemen get down field pretty quickly. Cool to watch.