Fish Castoff D-Line vs the "Browncos"

[oldirty14]

Originally Posted by Hoofbeats
I find it pretty hillarious that Fish fans are focusing on Denver's defensive line instead of their own. Sure, we brought in some players who were considered underachievers in Cleveland, but it seems to be lost on you guys that they were ADDED to a unit that was already 4th against the run and 4th overall in the NFL last year. Nobody questions that Brown, Warren and Ekuban are extremely talented. They were all high draft picks. That has not been their problem. The NFL is full of players who only achieved their potential once they changed teams, so this is nothing new. Miami, on the other hand ALSO brought in new defensive line guys. However you brought in old guys that are well past their prime, while we moved older guys off the roster or to the 2nd unit (Marco Coleman). This is odd considering you are the team that went 4-12 and we went 10-6, so you should be the ones rebuilding with younger guys.

Before you start bashing the performance of the "Browncos" last season it might be nice to look at how some of your own D-line castoffs are likely to perform. Traylor is 70 pounds overweight, with limited mobility and makes a good space eater but can't do the one thing you MUST do to stop Denver's running game; move well laterally. Holliday was a puzzling pickup to me. Kansas City's "defense" was pathetic the last two years so ANYBODY leaviing the Chiefs should be looked at with extreme skepticism. In the two Kansas City games last season, Denver runners gained 299 yards on 48 carries, or a whopping 6.2 yards a pop. It was even worse in 2003 as Denver went through the Chiefs "defense" like a hot knife through butter, averaging 34.5 points, 488 yards total offense and 224 on the ground, going off for a ridiculous 7 yards per carry rushing. For the 2004 season, KC's "defense" was horrible, finishing 28th against the run in yard per rush and dead last in yards per pass. They were no better in 2003, finishing last against the run and 29th overall. These dismal performances were actually considerably worse than Cleveland, which finished 27th and 16th respectively last year. The biggest difference however, is that these "Browncos" are not only talented, but young as well. Contrast this with the old guys Miami brought in. Keith Traylor is a fat old tub-o-goo whose good for one thing...clogging up the middle. He was effectively hidden in New England playing with the Pats superior talent around him. Unfortunately for you, Denver LOVES going against guys like this because they're stationary targets. Running against guys like Traylor and Holliday will always put smiles on the faces of Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell. The addition of Kevin Carter may help some, but Carter is 31, and not the player he used to be. His sack totals were somewhat inflated in St. Louis, which scored so much that the other team was frequently forced to pass in order to catch up, giving him the ability to forget about the run and just go after the QB early and often. Carter was let go by the Titans after 4 mediocre seasons; a team that finished 27th in total defense last year and 30th against the pass. So while Fish fans may think the "Browncos" will be easy pickin's, castoffs from sorry defenses lilke Kansas City and Tennessee plus an obese Traylor should hardly invoke confidence against our running game.

It's also quite funny to hear you talking about the Fish running over these guys based on their performance againstg them last year in Cleveland. The Fish scored only 10 points against Cleveland last year and gained a mediocre 280 yards in total offense. Adding a rookie runner and a career backup QB who can't get out of his own way doesn't qualify you to think it will be any better this time going up against these same guys surrounded by the fastest linebackers in the NFL and 2 All Pro defensive backs in the secondary.

The NFL's 4th best defense from 2004 added All Pro DE Trevor Pryce, a young, quick, potentially dominating DT in Warren, increased speed and depth off the edges in Ekuban and Engleberger and a high motor run stuffer in Myers. Anything physical freak Courtney Brown adds is merely gravy. If he stays healthy, this is a top 3 D-Line. Miami will not be improved on defense by adding old, slow, over-the-hill players like Traylor, Holliday and Carter to go with their other geezers like Seau and Thomas. Another 4-12 season is a distinct possibility. Barring a weather related equalizer in the form of a mud hole for a field, Denver should rush for 180-200 yards and probably sacks Gus at least 4 times. Giving Shanahan more than a week to prepare against a rookie coach is a recipe for a Denver win.



you really must have nothing to do if you sit and write all this. I couldnt even read it all. Go outside and do something productive with yourself!

By the way......... Go phins!

 

[Hoofbeats]

You seem to be basing much of your comparison on the ages of the players; specifically the fact that the new donkey DLinemen are much younger than the new Fins DLinemen. The only problem with that arguement is that the play of most DLinemen doesn't erode (as fast as it does at other positions) as a player ages; mainly because they rely on strength more than speed. Often times (as players perfect techniques) their play tends to improve as they get older.

That is incorrect. Most D-Linemen have their best years before age 30. As for speed vs strength...against this kind of rushing attack you want quick, mobile D-line guys with the ability to slide laterally down the line and the agility to avoid cut blocks and traps. Large ponderous elephant-like guys packing an extra 60 pounds of blubber get abused in this system. That's why we're successful with it...because everyone in the NFL has built their D-line for a straight ahead power style instead of this. Exhibit A: 350 pound Gilbert Brown in SB XXXII was completely useless against our line. Traylor at 305 a few years ago was wearing down over the 2nd half of the year. At 340 he's got virtually no abilty to move side to side like he needs to in this game.

 

[Dolfan4life!]

That is incorrect. Most D-Linemen have their best years before age 30. As for speed vs strength...against this kind of rushing attack you want quick, mobile D-line guys with the ability to slide laterally down the line and the agility to avoid cut blocks and traps. Large ponderous elephant-like guys packing an extra 60 pounds of blubber get abused in this system. That's why we're successful with it...because everyone in the NFL has built their D-line for a straight ahead power style instead of this. Exhibit A: 350 pound Gilbert Brown in SB XXXII was completely useless against our line. Traylor at 305 a few years ago was wearing down over the 2nd half of the year. At 340 he's got virtually no abilty to move side to side like he needs to in this game.

Try reading my post again. Here, let me paraphrase. Generally the play of most DLinemen doesn't erode as fast as the play of players other positions that require speed to be effective. Because strength (especially in the interior) is much more important than speed. A player can stay in the weight room and his strength won't erode as quickly as his speed will as he ages. As far as all this lateral movement stuff, I guess the book you read to get "learned up" on the basics of football was big on this concept, but I think your over emphasizing it just a wee bit. Try watching the game a little while and learn about it that way. You seem as if you are quite young, don't worry watch the game and in a few years you'll know enough to at least hold an intelligent conversation about it.

 

[finfan54]

He claims we ignored our own DL and then he doesnt even mention all of our guys. He must live in a cave up in the mountains.

 

[HybridPHIN 23]

Putting alot of effort into your analysis is great and all but you Forgot to know what your talking about. We follow our team every day. Nice try.

You keep making references to our Running Offense and Defense of last season like we actually intended to have Bryan Robinson, Jeff Zgonina, & Dario Romero starting at DT. Or Brock Forsey/Leonard Henry carrying the load at RB.

 

[rafael]

I did not compare the Browns and KC D-lines. I compared players cast off from both those teams as being equally deserving of question marks, mainly because Fish fans have assumed your castoffs are better than our castoffs, despite they fact they are much older. Second, I did not ignore the Carter pickup...I commented that he was past his prime, which he is. He last made the pro bowl in 2002, mainly on reputation.

Denver was improving a good line and Miami was not. You gave up 12 fewer yards than Cleveland on the ground last year, the same team you are bashing in here. Pointing out the fact that adding OLD players past their prime to your defense may not change that is very relevant; especially since you are criticizing our YOUNGER castoffs while praising your OLD castoffs.

The reason it's irrelevant is b/c we signed one player from KC compared to Denver who signed more than half of Cleveland's starting line. If you had watched Miami's preseason games you wouldn't be saying that Carter was past his prime.

Miami's DL performance last year was anamoly due to injuries. We lost half our starters. Looking at just last year ignores that this has been a fantastic defense for a very long time. These defensive players (that weren't injured) didn't show any dropoff. So all these comparisons to last year seem irrelevant to me.

 

[cnc66]

samphin;

Anderson and Bell are going to have to run aruond him and not get sucked into his gravitational pull.

ROFL :rofl3:

 

[wazzy]

I find it pretty hillarious that Fish fans are focusing on Denver's defensive line instead of their own. Sure, we brought in some players who were considered underachievers in Cleveland, but it seems to be lost on you guys that they were ADDED to a unit that was already 4th against the run and 4th overall in the NFL last year. Nobody questions that Brown, Warren and Ekuban are extremely talented. They were all high draft picks. That has not been their problem. The NFL is full of players who only achieved their potential once they changed teams, so this is nothing new. Miami, on the other hand ALSO brought in new defensive line guys. However you brought in old guys that are well past their prime, while we moved older guys off the roster or to the 2nd unit (Marco Coleman). This is odd considering you are the team that went 4-12 and we went 10-6, so you should be the ones rebuilding with younger guys.

Before you start bashing the performance of the "Browncos" last season it might be nice to look at how some of your own D-line castoffs are likely to perform. Traylor is 70 pounds overweight, with limited mobility and makes a good space eater but can't do the one thing you MUST do to stop Denver's running game; move well laterally. Holliday was a puzzling pickup to me. Kansas City's "defense" was pathetic the last two years so ANYBODY leaviing the Chiefs should be looked at with extreme skepticism. In the two Kansas City games last season, Denver runners gained 299 yards on 48 carries, or a whopping 6.2 yards a pop. It was even worse in 2003 as Denver went through the Chiefs "defense" like a hot knife through butter, averaging 34.5 points, 488 yards total offense and 224 on the ground, going off for a ridiculous 7 yards per carry rushing. For the 2004 season, KC's "defense" was horrible, finishing 28th against the run in yard per rush and dead last in yards per pass. They were no better in 2003, finishing last against the run and 29th overall. These dismal performances were actually considerably worse than Cleveland, which finished 27th and 16th respectively last year. The biggest difference however, is that these "Browncos" are not only talented, but young as well. Contrast this with the old guys Miami brought in. Keith Traylor is a fat old tub-o-goo whose good for one thing...clogging up the middle. He was effectively hidden in New England playing with the Pats superior talent around him. Unfortunately for you, Denver LOVES going against guys like this because they're stationary targets. Running against guys like Traylor and Holliday will always put smiles on the faces of Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell. The addition of Kevin Carter may help some, but Carter is 31, and not the player he used to be. His sack totals were somewhat inflated in St. Louis, which scored so much that the other team was frequently forced to pass in order to catch up, giving him the ability to forget about the run and just go after the QB early and often. Carter was let go by the Titans after 4 mediocre seasons; a team that finished 27th in total defense last year and 30th against the pass. So while Fish fans may think the "Browncos" will be easy pickin's, castoffs from sorry defenses lilke Kansas City and Tennessee plus an obese Traylor should hardly invoke confidence against our running game.

It's also quite funny to hear you talking about the Fish running over these guys based on their performance against them last year in Cleveland. The Fish scored only 10 points against Cleveland last year and gained a mediocre 280 yards in total offense. Adding a rookie runner and a career backup QB who can't get out of his own way doesn't qualify you to think it will be any better this time going up against these same guys surrounded by the fastest linebackers in the NFL and 2 All Pro defensive backs in the secondary.

The NFL's 4th best defense from 2004 added All Pro DE Trevor Pryce, a young, quick, potentially dominating DT in Warren, increased speed and depth off the edges in Ekuban and Engleberger and a high motor run stuffer in Myers. Anything physical freak Courtney Brown adds is merely gravy. If he stays healthy, this is a top 3 D-Line. Miami will not be improved on defense by adding old, slow, over-the-hill players like Traylor, Holliday and Carter to go with their other geezers like Seau and Thomas. Another 4-12 season is a distinct possibility. Barring a weather related equalizer in the form of a mud hole for a field, Denver should rush for 180-200 yards and probably sacks Gus at least 4 times. Giving Shanahan more than a week to prepare against a rookie coach is a recipe for a Denver win.

Prediction: Denver 34 Miami 10

Wow I don't mind you going off on how well your team can be because your a Broncos fan and you need to have hopes for them but watch what you say when you call Seau a geezer look at his stats before he got injured last season and Carter is over the hill..... maybe if i was on crack I might understand your point there

 

[OSKIE]

Hello everybody... first time poster here. I'll tell everybody up front that I'm a Broncos fan. I'll not troll but would appreciate some intelligent football talk. We can all homer until we're blue in the face. What's the weather supposed to be like there in Miami? I'm hoping for nice weather, but either way you know it will be hot and muggy. Miami is a tough place for Denver to win. I do like our chances though but mainly b/c it's an opener and Shanny has had a little bit of extra time to prepare. He's won nearly 90% of his games when having extra time to prepare...I.e season openers, after bye weeks, and playoffs with an extra week to prepare.


What are the keys to winning in your opinions?

For Denver it will be to put pressure on Gus.
Run the ball effectively.
Win the TOP.

I'd also like to see us win the Field Position game. I think there is a good chance of that b/c of the run game and Sourbunz punting.

Watch out for our Nickel D. Those boys have been fierce so far. It's more of a 3-3-5 as we pull a DL rather than a LB, or sometimes move Pryce back as a LB. Pretty sick...a 280+ lb LB that runs in the high 4.6 range.

Interested to hear your thoughts and good luck!

 

[OSKIE]

Wow I don't mind you going off on how well your team can be because your a Broncos fan and you need to have hopes for them but watch what you say when you call Seau a geezer look at his stats before he got injured last season and Carter is over the hill..... maybe if i was on crack I might understand your point there

Seau is a geezer but don't feel bad... we have a few of our own. Rod Smith and John Lynch are both considered "geezers" in terms of age but they can still bring it. Just think if Rice would have made the team...I mean not retired! :D We'd have a bunch of geezers!

 

[Al13]

So hoofbeats posts a indepth football related post and all you guys have is go away trolls?

indepth football related when he thinks denver beats miami on opening day ON THE ROAD by 24 in the heat....

another question i have is, so you say that you added the d-line to an already 4th overall defensive unit, what about the guys that were starting on the d-line last year, i don´t follow the broncos so closely but i think reggie hayward signed with jacksonville and he had like 10.5 sacks, bottom line do you think maybe that the starters before had something to do with the success ? where are they ?

 

[OSKIE]

The reason it's irrelevant is b/c we signed one player from KC compared to Denver who signed more than half of Cleveland's starting line. If you had watched Miami's preseason games you wouldn't be saying that Carter was past his prime.

Miami's DL performance last year was anamoly due to injuries. We lost half our starters. Looking at just last year ignores that this has been a fantastic defense for a very long time. These defensive players (that weren't injured) didn't show any dropoff. So all these comparisons to last year seem irrelevant to me.

Not sure you realize this or not but Denver lost more than half of their D-line last year. Honestly Pryce is the person that we couldn't afford to lose last year. He's been great so far this pre-season. I think it's fair to say that we both may be suprised by the other teams defense! One important note though, Denver added guys like the Browncos for depth. Some of them (Warren and Ekuban) stepped up enough to earn significant time. Also, if you guys haven't seen it yet we are using GWarren as a FB. It's pretty wild to see a 325 lb leading the way. Short yardage situations of course (Goal line, 3rd and inches, etc.). One of these days they'll probably use him as a decoy and let him catch a pass in the flats. Well, maybe not, but it would be a sight to see!!!

 

[Dolphan7]

I find it pretty hillarious that Fish fans are focusing on Denver's defensive line instead of their own. Sure, we brought in some players who were considered underachievers in Cleveland, but it seems to be lost on you guys that they were ADDED to a unit that was already 4th against the run and 4th overall in the NFL last year. Nobody questions that Brown, Warren and Ekuban are extremely talented. They were all high draft picks. That has not been their problem. The NFL is full of players who only achieved their potential once they changed teams, so this is nothing new. Miami, on the other hand ALSO brought in new defensive line guys. However you brought in old guys that are well past their prime, while we moved older guys off the roster or to the 2nd unit (Marco Coleman). This is odd considering you are the team that went 4-12 and we went 10-6, so you should be the ones rebuilding with younger guys.

Before you start bashing the performance of the "Browncos" last season it might be nice to look at how some of your own D-line castoffs are likely to perform. Traylor is 70 pounds overweight, with limited mobility and makes a good space eater but can't do the one thing you MUST do to stop Denver's running game; move well laterally. Holliday was a puzzling pickup to me. Kansas City's "defense" was pathetic the last two years so ANYBODY leaviing the Chiefs should be looked at with extreme skepticism. In the two Kansas City games last season, Denver runners gained 299 yards on 48 carries, or a whopping 6.2 yards a pop. It was even worse in 2003 as Denver went through the Chiefs "defense" like a hot knife through butter, averaging 34.5 points, 488 yards total offense and 224 on the ground, going off for a ridiculous 7 yards per carry rushing. For the 2004 season, KC's "defense" was horrible, finishing 28th against the run in yard per rush and dead last in yards per pass. They were no better in 2003, finishing last against the run and 29th overall. These dismal performances were actually considerably worse than Cleveland, which finished 27th and 16th respectively last year. The biggest difference however, is that these "Browncos" are not only talented, but young as well. Contrast this with the old guys Miami brought in. Keith Traylor is a fat old tub-o-goo whose good for one thing...clogging up the middle. He was effectively hidden in New England playing with the Pats superior talent around him. Unfortunately for you, Denver LOVES going against guys like this because they're stationary targets. Running against guys like Traylor and Holliday will always put smiles on the faces of Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell. The addition of Kevin Carter may help some, but Carter is 31, and not the player he used to be. His sack totals were somewhat inflated in St. Louis, which scored so much that the other team was frequently forced to pass in order to catch up, giving him the ability to forget about the run and just go after the QB early and often. Carter was let go by the Titans after 4 mediocre seasons; a team that finished 27th in total defense last year and 30th against the pass. So while Fish fans may think the "Browncos" will be easy pickin's, castoffs from sorry defenses lilke Kansas City and Tennessee plus an obese Traylor should hardly invoke confidence against our running game.

It's also quite funny to hear you talking about the Fish running over these guys based on their performance against them last year in Cleveland. The Fish scored only 10 points against Cleveland last year and gained a mediocre 280 yards in total offense. Adding a rookie runner and a career backup QB who can't get out of his own way doesn't qualify you to think it will be any better this time going up against these same guys surrounded by the fastest linebackers in the NFL and 2 All Pro defensive backs in the secondary.

The NFL's 4th best defense from 2004 added All Pro DE Trevor Pryce, a young, quick, potentially dominating DT in Warren, increased speed and depth off the edges in Ekuban and Engleberger and a high motor run stuffer in Myers. Anything physical freak Courtney Brown adds is merely gravy. If he stays healthy, this is a top 3 D-Line. Miami will not be improved on defense by adding old, slow, over-the-hill players like Traylor, Holliday and Carter to go with their other geezers like Seau and Thomas. Another 4-12 season is a distinct possibility. Barring a weather related equalizer in the form of a mud hole for a field, Denver should rush for 180-200 yards and probably sacks Gus at least 4 times. Giving Shanahan more than a week to prepare against a rookie coach is a recipe for a Denver win.

Prediction: Denver 34 Miami 10

Oh Man and I was so much looking forward to the game and now you post this. Now I am slipping into a deep state of depression. NOT!:D

 

[Hoofbeats]

Try reading my post again. Here, let me paraphrase. Generally the play of most DLinemen doesn't erode as fast as the play of players other positions that require speed to be effective. Because strength (especially in the interior) is much more important than speed. A player can stay in the weight room and his strength won't erode as quickly as his speed will as he ages.

So you're saying a NT doesn't have to depend on speed like a CB...well that's obvious. it doesn't change the fact most DL guys peak by 30.

As far as all this lateral movement stuff, I guess the book you read to get "learned up" on the basics of football was big on this concept, but I think your over emphasizing it just a wee bit. Try watching the game a little while and learn about it that way. You seem as if you are quite young, don't worry watch the game and in a few years you'll know enough to at least hold an intelligent conversation about it.

According to you're personal profile you were born in 1967, so I've been a Bronco fan since you were 2. BTW...I played the game...didn't need to read any books about it. To educate yourself on this game, just keep your eyes on our O-line throughout this game instead of watching the ball carrier. You'll see a completely different style of blocking...

 

[OSKIE]

indepth football related when he thinks denver beats miami on opening day ON THE ROAD by 24 in the heat....

another question i have is, so you say that you added the d-line to an already 4th overall defensive unit, what about the guys that were starting on the d-line last year, i don´t follow the broncos so closely but i think reggie hayward signed with jacksonville and he had like 10.5 sacks, bottom line do you think maybe that the starters before had something to do with the success ? where are they ?

Personally I think the only true player that we lost along the line is Hayward. He was the only starter last year that didn't loose time to injury. As for the other starters from last year. Ellis cut, Coleman 2nd team, Johnson/Fatafehi not resigned/cut. Ellis missed most of the season w/injury. Coleman would have been a rotation type player, but Pryce's back made him the starter. We also saw a lot of Raylee Johnson. Yes both Johnson and Coleman are geezers as well! So basically we lost Hayward. Not sure if you guys have paid any attention to the Jagwads but so far this preseason Hayward has exactly 2 plays in the record book... both penalites (offsides I believe!). He hasn't missed any of the preseason games either. Don't get me wrong, he's a decent player but he isn't worth 10 mil in bonuses! In fact, most Broncos fans will tell you that they'd prefer to still have Bert Berry and not Hayward. Our D-line last year was the weakest link. He and one of our LB's and one of our Safeties. All three have been addressed. The D-line will be improved just by having Pryce back. If the preseason is any indication the Browncos will do well.