For discussion..QB, team, system.

[Doktor Ivel]

49ers were trying to surrond Alex Smith with talent......i dont think it will work out.

i still think we need a good QB to go to the super bowl

 

[BlueFin]

That's one reason I always liked Fiedler. No Matter how bad he played, he always had us in position to tie or win late in the game. I always felt like there was a chance somehow. I am not putting him on Brady's level. Now whether he made something happen or not is a different story. But e always gave us a chance. Whether some fans will admit that or not:goof:

Admit what? Our top five defense kept us in the games during Fiedlers era.

When it really mattered, Fiedler usually played his worse ball.

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback regardless of when he was drafted.

Half of the Superbowls have been won by QB's drafted in round one.

 

[MDFINFAN]

Admit what? Our top five defense kept us in the games during Fiedlers era.

When it really mattered, Fiedler usually played his worse ball.

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback regardless of when he was drafted.

Half of the Superbowls have been won by QB's drafted in round one.

Bluefin, I don't think you can blame Jay for the minny and NE lossing a couple of years ago..Jay played great in both those games..our top 5 D let those games get away...in Minny 4th and 3..QB sneak gets first down. 11 point lead the next week with 4:11 left..Jay had a lot of great games, to include that Denver comeback with a broken finger.

 

[MDFINFAN]

No, they were two years removed from a Superbowl and Arnsparger was gone.

The defense sucked.

The year Marino took over, we had just come off a sb, if you have the heart of a championship video, watch it, Dan states they'd had just come off a SB.

 

[PYPER]

The year Marino took over, we had just come off a sb, if you have the heart of a championship video, watch it, Dan states they'd had just come off a SB.

Yes, Marino was drafted and did take over the year after the Dolphins lost the SB to the Redskins.

But Marino didn't lead them back to the Super Bowl until the '84 season (which was two seasons after they lost to the Skins).

 

[BlueFin]

Yes, Marino was drafted and did take over the year after the Dolphins lost the SB to the Redskins.

But Marino didn't lead them back to the Super Bowl until the '84 season (which was two seasons after they lost to the Skins).

Exactly, and in the interim the Dolphin defensive guru Bill Arnsparger left, by the time 1984 rolled around the Dolphins defense ended up ranked 19th out of 28 teams, Marino was capable of simply outscoring most of our opponents.

Unfortunately, even Dan's unbelieveable skills were not enough to overcome one of the better teams of the last 35 years in San Fran in Superbowl 19.

San Fran went 15-1 that year during the season.

 

[MDFINFAN]

Exactly, and in the interim the Dolphin defensive guru Bill Arnsparger left, by the time 1984 rolled around the Dolphins defense ended up ranked 19th out of 28 teams, Marino was capable of simply outscoring most of our opponents.

Unfortunately, even Dan's unbelieveable skills were not enough to overcome one of the better teams of the last 35 years in San Fran in Superbowl 19.

San Fran went 15-1 that year during the season.

Now this I agree with, your original response didn't seem to agree that the phins had just come off a sb when Dan took over...which, my point was, he had a good OL in front of him when he took over. Danny didn't have to look over his shoulders every play when he first started. This allowed him to do his thing. Remember he didn't even know how to call out the whole play, his recievers or rbs did that for him...now that's a supporting cast.

 

[Dolphin North]

There is no absolute answer.

To be a great team, you need a QB who is unflappable and who rises to the occassion under pressure. You need a quarterback who can make quick decisions and throw the ball to the open man which is a lot easier said than done.

I saw someone mention that Brady wouldn't be effective without his defense or Oline.

But in 2001 the Patriots had a terrible Oline. They had a rookie at LT and were mediocre to poor everywhere else. That's why Bledsoe had been so ineffective in his last few years here.

Anyway, Brady came in and with his quick release and decision making.......HE made the Oline look much better than they ever had before.

So a truly great QB CAN actually make the team around him better. Just like a great point guard can make his teammates better in basketball.

BTW....The Patriots defense was ranked 24th out of 31 teams in 2001.

The thing is that people don't understand greatness. Statistical achievements do NOT make you great. Getting the job done in big spots is what defines (or should define) true greatness.

Michael Jordan wasn't great b/c he led the league in scoring every year. MJ was great b/c he constantly lifted the team on his back and CARRIED THEM TO VICTORY. He was great b/c he was always at his best in the big spots. More than anything, it's his buzzer-beating shots that define MJ. I mean, did that guy EVER miss a shot with the game on the line???

Unfortunately Dolphins fans will never accept that b/c of what it would mean about their beloved Dan Marino.

1. It is easier to make 4 players around you better as in the case of Jordan. Actually, because of the famous triangle offense that the Bulls ran, he only needed to make 2 other players better.

2. The Patriots actually lost to Oakland but because of a bad call (tuck tuck!) they advanced. The other SB's were more legitimate and well deserved, but with stronger teams, I believe.

3. Greatness as you describe it can only apply to teams because teams win teh superbowl. I have never heard that the 2004 Bradys for example won the SB. Or the Favres or the Warners or whoever. The SB goes to a team for a reason. Teams need to execute together to be effective in an 11 person on the field at a time sport. A Patsy fan should know that as well as anyone. That is why we say Marino was a great player. He did play well and I don't think anyone can say he lost many important games by himself. He also helped win many important ones. And actually, guys like him, Elway and now Brady so far, are known for making big plays when needed. Hey , if Roger Craig had not made "the catch" Montana's niners would not have won that first SB in the 80's. The throw was not an easy one to catch, but a part of the TEAM helped Montana out. Did Montana make Craig better by throwing high??????

I hate the Bills, but I realize that to accomplish what they did in the early 90's takes a great team. Norwood misses the FG and what? All of a sudden that whole team was no good?

In your book, Elway was not great until Terrell Davis stepped up and rushed for all those yards and TD's and was the major part of winning the SB? But could he have done that without Elway and vice versa? WHat if Macafferee and the boys were not making all of those tough catches? They all worked together. Even the best player needs help. etc. etc. etc.

 

[GRYPHONK]

Admit what? Our top five defense kept us in the games during Fiedlers era.

When it really mattered, Fiedler usually played his worse ball.

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback regardless of when he was drafted.

Half of the Superbowls have been won by QB's drafted in round one.

LOL typical blind Phin fan.

Jim Mandich even stated he witnessed our defense not make the big play more then Fiedler not making thebig play.

Sure our defense helped keep us in games but that was their job.

Our defense statistically has worse #'s or outing then Fiedlers playoff runs that is a fact.

Also a fact that it was the defense not Fiedler who blew the game against Minny and NE.

Also a fact that it was our defense who blew the game against Philly.

Now I am not saying Fiedler was a great QB.

But it is obvious that fans like you made him the easy scapegoat when in fact it was our defense that let us down.

I don't understand how blind you can be. Under Gailey Fiedler was solid. In the Minny, Detroit, Philly, Dallas, Washington game when Turner let Fiedler throw the ball he was very effective. Only when they went conservative is when Fiedler played lousy.

Some of you are just completely naive and blind it really is pathetic. By the way our great defense has been involved in a 62-7 routing in the playoffs, got involved with allowing Terry Allen at 40 something lol to get almost 200 yards rushing, they blew the NE game with 4 mins left to play, they blew the MInny game with Thomas getting dragged By Culpepper on 4th down. Our amazing defense blew all those games. Heck had they been able to stop Micahel Westbrook at all or stopped NE in the final 3 minsthen the Phins would have made the Playoffs in 2002 and 2003. That is afact.

In the playoffs Fiedler had bad outing against INDY and Oakland. But both games he had a torn rotator cuff. Then against Baltimore the same game our defense let Terry Allen march all over them, he still in the 4th down by 10 made a perfect pass to Mckinght with 7 mins left that would have definitely been a TD. McKnight dropped the pass.

Sorry I will agree with Mandich on this one when he said every year he witnessed the defense not stepping up or making the big play game after game when we needed them to.

But go ahead, continue to be bling and think statistics or defensive ranking truly makes you great.

Continue to let the Ravens and BUcs who had lesser offenses, less TOP, continue to win SB'S while you still say our offense was the problem. Continue to let the Delhommes and Brad'ys put up decent but not great #'s yet they will continue to make it or win SB'S.

you continue to hold on to your beloved defense that always ranks so high but always folds late in the 4th and late in the season. You hold on to that sparky.

 

[djfresh47]

LOL typical blind Phin fan.

Jim Mandich even stated he witnessed our defense not make the big play more then Fiedler not making thebig play.

Sure our defense helped keep us in games but that was their job.

Our defense statistically has worse #'s or outing then Fiedlers playoff runs that is a fact.

Also a fact that it was the defense not Fiedler who blew the game against Minny and NE.

Also a fact that it was our defense who blew the game against Philly.

Now I am not saying Fiedler was a great QB.

But it is obvious that fans like you made him the easy scapegoat when in fact it was our defense that let us down.

I don't understand how blind you can be. Under Gailey Fiedler was solid. In the Minny, Detroit, Philly, Dallas, Washington game when Turner let Fiedler throw the ball he was very effective. Only when they went conservative is when Fiedler played lousy.

Some of you are just completely naive and blind it really is pathetic. By the way our great defense has been involved in a 62-7 routing in the playoffs, got involved with allowing Terry Allen at 40 something lol to get almost 200 yards rushing, they blew the NE game with 4 mins left to play, they blew the MInny game with Thomas getting dragged By Culpepper on 4th down. Our amazing defense blew all those games. Heck had they been able to stop Micahel Westbrook at all or stopped NE in the final 3 minsthen the Phins would have made the Playoffs in 2002 and 2003. That is afact.

In the playoffs Fiedler had bad outing against INDY and Oakland. But both games he had a torn rotator cuff. Then against Baltimore the same game our defense let Terry Allen march all over them, he still in the 4th down by 10 made a perfect pass to Mckinght with 7 mins left that would have definitely been a TD. McKnight dropped the pass.

Sorry I will agree with Mandich on this one when he said every year he witnessed the defense not stepping up or making the big play game after game when we needed them to.

But go ahead, continue to be bling and think statistics or defensive ranking truly makes you great.

Continue to let the Ravens and BUcs who had lesser offenses, less TOP, continue to win SB'S while you still say our offense was the problem. Continue to let the Delhommes and Brad'ys put up decent but not great #'s yet they will continue to make it or win SB'S.

you continue to hold on to your beloved defense that always ranks so high but always folds late in the 4th and late in the season. You hold on to that sparky.

The defense folding has been a problem, but I believe Brad Johnson was a pro-bowler the year they won the SB. Putting Tom Brady in a category with Jake Delhomme is crazy IMO, Delhomme is a good Qb, but Brady is a great Qb, and a HOF guy already. Maybe i'm the only one, but does anyone want to give Brady some credit? He's in the right system, but so was Montana, so was Aikman, the guy plays great in big games, i'm not gonna blame it on him for being in the right situation and take that against him. I'm sure if Marino were in a system where he won a bunch of Sb's but had less numbers most Phin fans would talk of how great he was when he needed to be, but Brady get's no credit which I don't understand. Manning may put up better numbers but untill he wins a Super Bowl he is not as good as Brady, IMO.

 

[PYPER]

First, you can't make the kind of errors you just made in your post and retain ANY level of credibility. You're out of your league son.

1. It is easier to make 4 players around you better as in the case of Jordan. Actually, because of the famous triangle offense that the Bulls ran, he only needed to make 2 other players better.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. I NEVER compared Jordan's ability to make his teammates better to any football player.

I used Jordan as an example of analyzing what makes a player great. Everyone agrees that Jordan was great. But was his greatness best defined by his statistical achievements or by his ability to will his team to victory and hit clutch shot after clutch shot?

That's strike one against you.

2. The Patriots actually lost to Oakland but because of a bad call (tuck tuck!) they advanced. The other SB's were more legitimate and well deserved, but with stronger teams, I believe.

This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I respect a logical person's right to think that the tuck rule is a bad rule but in no way shape or form should that play be identified as a bad call.

Arguing that stance just makes you stupid, as far as I'm concerned.

Strike two.....

3. Greatness as you describe it can only apply to teams because teams win teh superbowl. I have never heard that the 2004 Bradys for example won the SB. Or the Favres or the Warners or whoever. The SB goes to a team for a reason. Teams need to execute together to be effective in an 11 person on the field at a time sport. A Patsy fan should know that as well as anyone.

You're trying to argue that football is a team sport??? Why??? Of course it is??? Are you trying to make us all dumber????

Strike 3....You're OUTTA Here. That's one out.

That is why we say Marino was a great player. He did play well and I don't think anyone can say he lost many important games by himself. He also helped win many important ones.

You got it all wrong. My complaint against Marino isn't that he never won a Super Bowl. My complaint is that he ALWAYS played POORLY in his biggest games. The Dolphins didn't fail b/c they had a poor defense or running game, they failed b/c the one guy they dependended on the most played poorly. It's that simple.

Look, Jake Delhomme lost a Super Bowl as well. But unlike Marino, Delhomme played his freaking *** off. I have much respect for Delhomme.

Marino though, in my mind, is grossly OVERRATED. He ALWAYS sucked in his team's biggest game.

Strike One.....

And actually, guys like him, Elway and now Brady so far, are known for making big plays when needed. Hey , if Roger Craig had not made "the catch" Montana's niners would not have won that first SB in the 80's. The throw was not an easy one to catch, but a part of the TEAM helped Montana out. Did Montana make Craig better by throwing high??????

Roger Craig??? I think you should spend more time watching the NFL History Channel. Roger Craig was a running back and he wasn't even on the 49ers when they won their first Super Bowl. The player you're thinking off was Dwight Clark.

You gotta get facts like that right or you really look stupid. You get two strikes for looking so stupid there.

That's two outs.

I hate the Bills, but I realize that to accomplish what they did in the early 90's takes a great team. Norwood misses the FG and what? All of a sudden that whole team was no good?

Making four straight Super Bowls was very impressive, even if the league was much weaker back then. That was a strange time for the NFL. The league was in transition. Many of the games greatest coaches were retiring and/or swithching teams. Guys like Tom Laundry, Bill Walsh, Chuck Knoll, Chuck Knox, Bill Parcells, Joe Gibbs, Buddy Ryan, Mike Ditka, Chuck Knox, Don Coryell, Sam Wyche....The list goes on and on.....

Another factor that assisted the Bills was the fact that the AFC East was so weak. In the early 90's the Patriots and Colts were as bad as any teams in the history of the game. The Jets also sucked. That gave the Dolphins and Bills a huge advantage in terms of competing for playoff spots and seeding. The Dolphins were essentially a 6-8 win team that rode their easy schedule to 10-11 wins. The Bills were essentially a 9-10 win team that rode their schedule to 13 wins. That allowed them to win home field advantage and the rest was essentially history b/c nobody was going to beat them in Buffalo in January.

In summary, I think what the Bills achieved was great. But they were NOT a great team. A great team doesn't embarrass themselves like they did in their Super Bowl losses. NINE turnovers.........Think about that. They once turned it over NINE times. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9..................

Strike One....

In your book, Elway was not great until Terrell Davis stepped up and rushed for all those yards and TD's and was the major part of winning the SB? But could he have done that without Elway and vice versa? WHat if Macafferee and the boys were not making all of those tough catches? They all worked together. Even the best player needs help. etc. etc. etc.

Why are you commenting on "my book". You don't know me. Until Brady came along, I had Elway ranked #1-2 (Montana). Even before he won his titles, I had him there.

Listen, Marino was a very good quarterback. But the reason he never won was just as much his fault as it was anyone else's. How many other QB's get drafted by a Super Bowl team and spend their careers playing for Hall of Fame Coaches? Coaches who had combined to win FOUR Super Bowls without him.


Game Over......You LOSE (Just like Marino)

 

[jtoomuch]

I think new england has proven that with the right group of guys and a good system, anyone with football knowledge and talent can be plugged into a positon. Look at there secondary last year, and they still decimated the colts. The jury is out on Feeley and our questions will be answered very soon. I think Fiedler got a real bad rap for us since he is Marino's successor. He really was not used properly. How many times did we see him throw the out pattern to the opposite side of the field and get picked. He doesn't have the arm for that, but they would call the play anyway. Poor coaching in miami made us the most consistently mediocre 11-5 team for years. By the way, I think Norv Turner was either horribly overrated or very restricted by Wanny. And Foerster has no business being in Football

GOOD post, and you are exactly right about the out pattern.

 

[GRYPHONK]

The defense folding has been a problem, but I believe Brad Johnson was a pro-bowler the year they won the SB. Putting Tom Brady in a category with Jake Delhomme is crazy IMO, Delhomme is a good Qb, but Brady is a great Qb, and a HOF guy already. Maybe i'm the only one, but does anyone want to give Brady some credit? He's in the right system, but so was Montana, so was Aikman, the guy plays great in big games, i'm not gonna blame it on him for being in the right situation and take that against him. I'm sure if Marino were in a system where he won a bunch of Sb's but had less numbers most Phin fans would talk of how great he was when he needed to be, but Brady get's no credit which I don't understand. Manning may put up better numbers but untill he wins a Super Bowl he is not as good as Brady, IMO.

LOL I give all the credit in the world. I simply call him MR. Clutch. BUt at the same time I know what he does and doesn't do.

None the less as I have stated I would have no other QB in the 4th with my team trailing then Brady.

U can blame the lack of talent around the QB but you can never excuse a QB'S success based on the good talent around him. Just my opinion.

 

[BlueFin]

LOL typical blind Phin fan.

Jim Mandich even stated he witnessed our defense not make the big play more then Fiedler not making thebig play.

Sure our defense helped keep us in games but that was their job.

Our defense statistically has worse #'s or outing then Fiedlers playoff runs that is a fact.

Also a fact that it was the defense not Fiedler who blew the game against Minny and NE.

Also a fact that it was our defense who blew the game against Philly.

Now I am not saying Fiedler was a great QB.

But it is obvious that fans like you made him the easy scapegoat when in fact it was our defense that let us down.

I don't understand how blind you can be. Under Gailey Fiedler was solid. In the Minny, Detroit, Philly, Dallas, Washington game when Turner let Fiedler throw the ball he was very effective. Only when they went conservative is when Fiedler played lousy.

Some of you are just completely naive and blind it really is pathetic. By the way our great defense has been involved in a 62-7 routing in the playoffs, got involved with allowing Terry Allen at 40 something lol to get almost 200 yards rushing, they blew the NE game with 4 mins left to play, they blew the MInny game with Thomas getting dragged By Culpepper on 4th down. Our amazing defense blew all those games. Heck had they been able to stop Micahel Westbrook at all or stopped NE in the final 3 minsthen the Phins would have made the Playoffs in 2002 and 2003. That is afact.

In the playoffs Fiedler had bad outing against INDY and Oakland. But both games he had a torn rotator cuff. Then against Baltimore the same game our defense let Terry Allen march all over them, he still in the 4th down by 10 made a perfect pass to Mckinght with 7 mins left that would have definitely been a TD. McKnight dropped the pass.

Sorry I will agree with Mandich on this one when he said every year he witnessed the defense not stepping up or making the big play game after game when we needed them to.

But go ahead, continue to be bling and think statistics or defensive ranking truly makes you great.

Continue to let the Ravens and BUcs who had lesser offenses, less TOP, continue to win SB'S while you still say our offense was the problem. Continue to let the Delhommes and Brad'ys put up decent but not great #'s yet they will continue to make it or win SB'S.

you continue to hold on to your beloved defense that always ranks so high but always folds late in the 4th and late in the season. You hold on to that sparky.

Did the defense throw SIX (6) interceptions in back to back playoff games in the 2000 playoffs?

The truth is, our defense produced our records......did they wear down at the end from being on the field too long trying to bail Fiedler's arse out time after time......? Yes.

You are the blind one my friend, the truth is in the numbers, we had a top ranked defense and Fielder never came close to a respectable year end ranking as a QB.

And where is your so-called quote from Mandich? Link it.

 

[BlueFin]

You got it all wrong. My complaint against Marino isn't that he never won a Super Bowl. My complaint is that he ALWAYS played POORLY in his biggest games. The Dolphins didn't fail b/c they had a poor defense or running game, they failed b/c the one guy they dependended on the most played poorly. It's that simple.

Look, Jake Delhomme lost a Super Bowl as well. But unlike Marino, Delhomme played his freaking *** off. I have much respect for Delhomme.

Marino though, in my mind, is grossly OVERRATED. He ALWAYS sucked in his team's biggest game.

Have you totally lost your mind?

Did he suck when he threw for 4 rouchdowns and 428 yards in the AFC Championship game routing the Steelers in 1984?

I'm not going to bother reciting every big game Dan shined in, he had a very good playoff record including out dueling Montana when he was at KC.

I don't blame Dan for the final game at JAX because he was injured and 38 years old, he shouldn't have been on the field.

In Superbowl 19 despite his team being badly overmatched by one of the better teams of the last 35 years, he still threw for over 300 yards.

If you don't don't understand that he was never surrounded by a complete team then you don't know squat.