How many here still want to say Richie is the victim | Page 9 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

How many here still want to say Richie is the victim

dolphindan1970 said:
Nobody believes in God more than me,went to church for years,and maybe not where I should be right now,but love God and how anyone can sith there and say what you do is stupid to me ! I dont believe in taking God out of schools,or off the dolar bill,or taking the 10 commandments out of schol either for that matter ! And I most certainly dont believe its right to let some big loud mouth,muscle bound punk run his mouth and bully people around,and sexually assault,or harass (alledgedly for reasons we all know why you need to say that), a woman !
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I think you make a very important point its one that I have not seen discussed and based on the accounts I read caused me a lot of confusion. I struggle to understand the Moral Framework that was being adhered to by the OLine and the Coach (I completely get there are several sides to a story, in this case I am generally accepting the report). You mention having a guiding principal based on your beliefs, I know other people may take a secular humanist position both in principal agree (golden rule etc.) I know others that cultural ideas of chivalry and respect dictate how they behave, others may adhere to the principals of Martial Arts or the code of Honor in the Military or even a sense of brotherhood I understand Police and Fire advocate. Hell even the Mafia is depicted as having a better code of ethics. For the life of me I cannot see what was guiding these young men. Seems like some feral youth experiment gone bad.
 
And that is in part some of the arguments that have been reported.

If you've never been a part of an NFL lockerroom, you don't understand an NFL lockerroom.
 
GoonBoss said:
Nice straw man.
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strawman-1.jpg
 
I finally read the report. It is devastating to Incognito, Pouncey, Jerry and Turner. Incognito should be suspended from football for life -- his treatment of the assistant trainer is both vile, racist and so far beyond the line that there is no defense possible. Pouncey and Jerry both deserve long suspensions. Between this situation and his involvement in the Aaron Hernandez saga I worry that Pouncey is out of control and headed for trouble with the law. There is is no question that Turner needs to be fired. He actively participated in the harassment of one of his players and lied repeatedly to the investigators.

The most difficult issue is what the report says about Joe Philbin. Several posters have noted that the report gives Philbin "plausible deniability". I would have hoped that the report would have given him actual deniability. Philbin is damned either way. Either he knew about the harassment and did nothing, or he should have known and did nothing. Either option speaks volumes about his failures as a leader.

I expect Commissioner Goodell to come down on the Dolphins hard. The harassment of Martin was bad enough. The harassment of the assistant trainer has left both the Dolphins and the league open to a hostile work environment lawsuit.

What an absolute mess.
 
Canadianfishfan said:
And that is in part some of the arguments that have been reported.

If you've never been a part of an NFL lockerroom, you don't understand an NFL lockerroom.
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I was hoping it would be clear that I definitely did not understand a NFL locker room (if the things in the report accurately depict what goes on). Your response seems to indicate you have some insights. Anything would be great to hear. Did you find other locker rooms to be similar or not. What was the process used to get players and coaches to adopt a Judas rule or to not intervene when staff and a few players where treated the way the report describes. By process I mean what are the steps it takes to get players to behave that way.
 
Okay, I am back from my valentines break and I read the report. And I figure the report would paint the picture in Martin's favor. But I did not think Martin was really that mentally fragile. This is all about bad vulgar language, communication, people being assholes, players joking with each other, getting carried away, one man who is very weak fragile. YES Incognito is an ASS hole and plenty others whom were smart enough not to text. The guys got carried away with the joking and the belittling each others for their own personal fun. But it was nothing that I never seen before in a locker room that players could not handled themselves. What the report did reveal to me is that Martin is a weak fragile person who has a lot of self esteem issues beyond and way before his Dolphins teammates teasing. You can see it in his letter to his parents, that he is searching to find and define himself as a man. Playing football which is an environment that when weakness is detected many will expose it in a very aggressive manner. One of many reason why they call it a MANs sport. He never had to resort to fighting, he had only need to just speak up for himself. Martin's father tried to explain this to him, but that never got through to him since he was a child, which he still mentally very much is. Yes this is immaturity, because he still carries child like behaviors which most grow out of. Yes the dolphins players behavior is immature as well. But it was equivalent to putting the behavior of a elementary school kid (Martin) with teenagers (NFL Players).

Yes the players were ignorant, but you have to recognize that Martin taught himself to hide his feelings, instead of dealing with it. Because of his ability to hide his true feelings, none of the players knew. This should not be a reason to fire anyone, but a lesson to be learn from a UNIQUE situation. The NFL is full of 99.99% strong egos who know how to check other strong egos. Along comes a deceptive weak ego (that 0.01%), and expecting the NFL players and coaches to be skilled enough to recognize what they did not see, was meant to be a failure. It was going to be a failure in just about any locker room. Usually weak personalities are weeded out way without anyone knowing it.

[video=youtube;QiM2U9AiQRM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiM2U9AiQRM[/video]

I did not want to call Martin weak and immature. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because its very rare that someone that low of self esteem makes it that far in a profession full off egos. Jonathan Martin is a man now, regardless where or what he does with his life he needs to learn how to speak up. An education will only take him so far(Do not get me wrong it does take you far), but you can not only lean on that for the rest of your life. It comes to a point in any profession you must have self confidence and the ability to speak as an adult. People want to say "oh how the dolphins do not know", NO ONE KNEW because Martin perfected the skill to hide it. And you have to imagine this is going on in an environment where everyone is calling each other names. Martin was bullied and called names at Stanford and highschool. I am surprised as much as all of you that he was able to hide it so well.

I do not think its safe for Martin to play in the NFL. He would have to go to a situation where everyone watching over him and protecting him. Some organization may try it, but its going to be a very big risk for a player who has not shown is worth that risk especially not knowing what are his emotional limits? That is a question that you should not have to ask of a NFL player, because there is no time for that on the field. Lets take it back to the old Marino and Shula days. Could he handle Marino grabbing him by the mask and yelling at him on the sideline during a game for making mistake. Or would he last a day with Don Shula who was Nicknamed the "Iron Jaw" for a reason. I am sure the NFL will encourage teams to give him a chance to be political correct.

I have worked in a variety of different work environments. I played basketball and football, and been around former professional players most of my life. After my career was over, I worked for UPS which is Male dominate. The egos at UPS are very similar to the football personalities. Racial Slurs toward each other, talking about kicking each other asses, and talking about having sex with your relatives were all going around just like the dolphins locker room at a considerably less income. When you felt things were going to far you had to check each other just like the locker room. And no that does mean fighting, but just speaking up letting it be known that is enough. Now I work in a totally different environment of the medical field. There is still some vulgar languages and joking with others but tone down extremely. Each profession had the same workplace behavior policies, but in the medical office space was the first time I seen it being enforced. When I started working in a traditional office space, i knew I could not conduct myself as I formally did as an athlete or UPS employee. But I still was not prepared, I surprisingly seen people get reported for all kind reasons. My boss was reported from someone over hearing calling herself a racist, while privately joking with another close coworker. A long investigation by HR and Compliance to try and reveal if she was truly racist. We had to hold a conference with the staff so she can make a public apology for calling herself a racist. I also got reported for what a women felt was a racial remark, when I made the statement "Wow your boss has you slaving", because she was working 12 hour shifts. The point of this story, once reported the HR has to enforce harassment laws of the workplace, and treat it seriously regardless how truly serious it was. But even then Martin is still going to deal with people trying to step on him, and he will need to speak up. He may very well get a female boss, who sees a 6'6 man and think he is mentally tough enough to handle a woman saying "quit being a girl" as a way to tell him toughen up. And he will do the same as always, smile and walk away, write a letter to his parents about how his boss called him a girl.....
 
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twix2500 said:
Okay, I am back from my valentines break and I read the report. And I figure the report would paint the picture in Martin's favor. But I did not think Martin was really that mentally fragile. This is all about bad vulgar language, communication, people being assholes, players joking with each other, getting carried away, one man who is very weak fragile. YES Incognito is an ASS hole and plenty others whom were smart enough not to text. The guys got carried away with the joking and the belittling each others for their own personal fun. But it was nothing that I never seen before in a locker room that players could not handled themselves. What the report did reveal to me is that Martin is a weak fragile person who has a lot of self esteem issues beyond and way before his Dolphins teammates teasing. You can see it in his letter to his parents, that he is searching to find and define himself as a man. Playing football which is an environment that when weakness is detected many will expose it in a very aggressive manner. One of many reason why they call it a MANs sport. He never had to resort to fighting, he had only need to just speak up for himself. Martin's father tried to explain this to him, but that never got through to him since he was a child, which he still mentally very much is. Yes this is immaturity, because he still carries child like behaviors which most grow out of. Yes the dolphins players behavior is immature as well. But it was equivalent to putting the behavior of a elementary school kid (Martin) with teenagers (NFL Players).

Yes the players were ignorant, but you have to recognize that Martin taught himself to hide his feelings, instead of dealing with it. Because of his ability to hide his true feelings, none of the players knew. This should not be a reason to fire anyone, but a lesson to be learn from a UNIQUE situation. The NFL is full of 99.99% strong egos who know how to check other strong egos. Along comes a deceptive weak ego (that 0.01%), and expecting the NFL players and coaches to be skilled enough to recognize what they did not see, was meant to be a failure. It was going to be a failure in just about any locker room. Usually weak personalities are weeded out way without anyone knowing it.

[video=youtube;QiM2U9AiQRM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiM2U9AiQRM[/video]

I did not want to call Martin weak and immature. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because its very rare that someone that low of self esteem makes it that far in a profession full off egos. Jonathan Martin is a man now, regardless where or what he does with his life he needs to learn how to speak up. An education will only take him so far(Do not get me wrong it does take you far), but you can not only lean on that for the rest of your life. It comes to a point in any profession you must have self confidence and the ability to speak as an adult. People want to say "oh how the dolphins do not know", NO ONE KNEW because Martin perfected the skill to hide it. And you have to imagine this is going on in an environment where everyone is calling each other names. Martin was bullied and called names at Stanford and highschool. I am surprised as much as all of you that he was able to hide it so well.

I do not think its safe for Martin to play in the NFL. He would have to go to a situation where everyone watching over him and protecting him. Some organization may try it, but its going to be a very big risk for a player who has not shown is worth that risk especially not knowing what are his emotional limits? That is a question that you should not have to ask of a NFL player, because there is no time for that on the field. Lets take it back to the old Marino and Shula days. Could he handle Marino grabbing him by the mask and yelling at him on the sideline during a game for making mistake. Or would he last a day with Don Shula who was Nicknamed the "Iron Jaw" for a reason. I am sure the NFL will encourage teams to give him a chance to be political correct.

I have worked in a variety of different work environments. I played basketball and football, and been around former professional players most of my life. After my career was over, I worked for UPS which is Male dominate. The egos at UPS are very similar to the football personalities. Racial Slurs toward each other, talking about kicking each other asses, and talking about having sex with your relatives were all going around just like the dolphins locker room at a considerably less income. When you felt things were going to far you had to check each other just like the locker room. And no that does mean fighting, but just speaking up letting it be known that is enough. Now I work in a totally different environment of the medical field. There is still some vulgar languages and joking with others but tone down extremely. Each profession had the same workplace behavior policies, but in the medical office space was the first time I seen it being enforced. When I started working in a traditional office space, i knew I could not conduct myself as I formally did as an athlete or UPS employee. But I still was not prepared, I surprisingly seen people get reported for all kind reasons. My boss was reported from someone over hearing calling herself a racist, while privately joking with another close coworker. A long investigation by HR and Compliance to try and reveal if she was truly racist. We had to hold a conference with the staff so she can make a public apology for calling herself a racist. I also got reported for what a women felt was a racial remark, when I made the statement "Wow your boss has you slaving", because she was working 12 hour shifts. The point of this story, once reported the HR has to enforce harassment laws of the workplace, and treat it seriously regardless how truly serious it was. But even then Martin is still going to deal with people trying to step on him, and he will need to speak up. He may very well get a female boss, who sees a 6'6 man and think he is mentally tough enough to handle a woman saying "quit being a girl" as a way to tell him toughen up. And he will do the same as always, smile and walk away, write a letter to his parents about how his boss called him a girl.....
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Well in reality no boss gender or whatever should be telling someone to quit acting like a girl. The simple fact is the players just need to grow the %%% up . I do think deep down there is something intrinsically wrong with people that constantly would insult each other on a racial basis no matter how playful it is. Being Infantry believe me I have seen and heard worse things that could ever go on in an NFL lockerroom and the main problem is other people that just let that kind of behavior go on around them because they don't want to seem like a bitch for saying something.
I personally don't tolerate it and don't care what anyone thinks of me. I know some people will just play along just to be accepted that's why a lot of times no complaints are made. The army has cracked down on it and in reality it has no negative effect on us doing our job, its just brought us out of the dark ages.
 
spiketex said:
Richie just pulled his twitter account. Look who just got buried by the truth.
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Yea after the report Im not sure why Ritchie said that. Ritchie should just accept that he probably did some stuff out of line and say he has learned from this instead of the tireless rants.
He threw his teammates under the bus just as much as Martin did.
 
finfan54 said:
Well, this in the end is about a lawsuit. That is what is coming.

It should be obvious. So whether anyone wants to take sides, Jmart went into lawsuit mode. He didnt tell anyone he was having probs except maybe the dude who was bullying him.

JMart has a duty to talk to Philbin about what is going on. After all, he is totally responsible for all the players. So in that, he didnt exactly set himself up to win this thing except court of public opinion.

Because if he tells Philbin and nothing is done or changed, then he has a much better reason to leave and absolutely have the NFL in a corner. I reiterate, the NFL gets sued, not the Miami Dolphins. The Miami Dolphins are not the corporation, just a franchise of the corp.
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I'm guessing a suit will never come into play here if Martin wants to play again as he says he does. I'd expect he would receive a settlement from Mr Ross with the NFL's blessing with an agreement he is a Free Agent, and he will no longer talk about or pursue legal action.

As far as franchises go, most are independently owned vs. corporately owned. In the NFL, they are obviously, all independently owned. Therefore, unless specific NFL policy written into the franchise agreement OR the NFL was specifically complicit with what went on here (they were not), only the actual employer (the Miami Dolphins) will be primarily responsible for wrongful acts committed by the team. It's likely that contractually there is mutual indemnity clauses which specifically state the wrongdoer is the one responsible for claims/law suits and the will provide any defense for the other party if dragged into the claim.

There are likely limitations as far as Martin's ability to sue due to the collective bargaining agreement. I'm not sure Martin would even have the capacity to bring an employment practices suit because they may be built into the union agreement signed with the NFL. If anything there would be forced arbitration, which could still ultimately lead to a possible payout by the Dolphins. It would not prevent Martin from suing Incognito directly for damages or even pursuing something criminally though I find that highly unlikely.

I've officially had enough of all of this BS. It's embarrassing that the only thing I have to talk about as a Dolphin fan is this. Moving on to talk draft and Free Agency. We have our work cut out for us to find 4-5 starting OL's going into next year.
 
dlockz said:
Well in reality no boss gender or whatever should be telling someone to quit acting like a girl. The simple fact is the players just need to grow the %%% up . I do think deep down there is something intrinsically wrong with people that constantly would insult each other on a racial basis no matter how playful it is. Being Infantry believe me I have seen and heard worse things that could ever go on in an NFL lockerroom and the main problem is other people that just let that kind of behavior go on around them because they don't want to seem like a bitch for saying something.
I personally don't tolerate it and don't care what anyone thinks of me. I know some people will just play along just to be accepted that's why a lot of times no complaints are made. The army has cracked down on it and in reality it has no negative effect on us doing our job, its just brought us out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...

Well you can use the so to say "reality" concept. HR tells us do not hold any birthday celebrations for our nurses and assistants, because one nurse or assistant can say that I am showing favoritism because her party was not as good as another, or at times I was unaware of ones birthday. I am encourage to stay away from any social non work relationships. And I learn its true the more you get personal with co workers, the more problems. But can you really expect everyone to be just come to work and only worry about your self no interaction unless its business related? That "reality" is so "unrealistic".
 
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