If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
- Thread starter SkapePhin
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Dolfan02
Somebody kick Huizenga for me
Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
All you've done is state the obvious. WE ALL want to win and WE ALL don't want our QBs to fail. But you're being neutral, and the question is who would want as your starting QB, Jay or Brian? Life is about making tough choices and standing for something, or you fall for anything. Success doesn't just fall on your lap.
All you've done is state the obvious. WE ALL want to win and WE ALL don't want our QBs to fail. But you're being neutral, and the question is who would want as your starting QB, Jay or Brian? Life is about making tough choices and standing for something, or you fall for anything. Success doesn't just fall on your lap.
phins_4_ever
E12 FH Tailgate Gang
Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
Honestly, I am being accused of being a Fiedler homer...jaybot..whatever. Only because I refuse to solely lay blame on Jay unless it is deserved.
My opinion is fairly easy on that subject. Always was. Jay is not a HOFer..hardly a pro-bowler. His deep throws may not be the prettiest ones but he is able to complete them. Jay has a lot of intangibles of a QB which makes him a winner.
The question is: can we win it all with Jay at QB? Absolutely. If you play to Jay's strength (and the teams strength) we have a real good shot.
The funny thing is that people always complain that Norv has to make the offense work for Jay's strength. Isn't that true for all QBs? Wasn't our offense geared for passing under marino because that was his strength? Handing of surely wasn't a Marino strength.
Jay is being hung out to dry pretty badly. We have more flaws than Jay. OL is one...WR is the other. Is one bigger than the other? Who knows. All I know is to have a solid passing game you have to have an OL who can block, a WR who can get open and runs the right routes and a QB who can get the ball there.
Now, without 1 and 2 not functioning we will not know if 3 will.
There is not much difference between Brian and Jay. I have seen a lot of pre-season camps, pre-season games to say that Brian is what Denver fans claim he is: a weak armed QB. Funny...just like Jay.
He may have been a stronger armed QB once but that was before surgery on his throwing shoulder.
I think Brian will fail miserably. Not because he is a bad QB but he is less mobil and holds onto the ball longer...behind our OL that is a futile task. Sage (and I am really high on Sage) will fail miserably as well.
I don't know how mobile Jay will be with a brace on but it might be just enough to escape our Swiss Cheese OL.
If our OL would play at least average and our WRs would get seperation and jay put up the same numbers as he does now, I'd agree, change QBs asap. But it is not so.
I am not getting caught up in the name Griese. For me the "legacy" is not bound to continue, and no "legend" has returned...just because of a last name. His probowl season is unimpressive because it was accomplished over a span of 10 games (I just posted a 10 game stretch of Jay with similiar numbers on DT) and winning a national championship means diddly nothing...just ask a handful of UM QBs.
Brian is a pocket passer. To have a successful pocket passer you have to have the protection from the OL. We don't have that. A pocket passer also needs playmakers at the WR slot. Players who recognize that there is a blitz coming, WRs who have the state of mind knowing that my QB is in trouble and come back and help out (look at Moss, Keyshawn and Harrison...or for that matter recall our very own Marc's brothers). We have neither.
Playcalling has been a factor as well. Rerun the last game..heck..rerun any game this year. Our scoring drives came when we mixed it up on 1st down. Run Ricky on 1st down for no gain or loss of yardage puts the QB in obvious passing situations on 2nd and 3rd and long. It may work once in a while but is bound to fail more often then not. No matter who starts for us. There is only a few QBs (less than a handful) I would trust right now to be in a constant 2nd and long and 3rd and long. Manning, Favre, Vick...come to mind.
Like I said Jay is being hung out to dry: play calling is not to his strength, OL is porous and our WR have no play making ability.
I put play call on top because you can overcome flaws in your offense and I am surprised a bit that Norv has regressed a little (from last year). Or the coaching staff has way to much faith in our OL.
It is bad when the fans in the stands are calling first downs before the snap "1st down...run ricky for no gain" and they are right 95% of the time. I have no doubt that what we see, the DC sees.
OK..after all my rambling to answer the question: I prefer Jay in because...
a) he can play better
b) for the current state of our OL he is better suited
c) if our OL would play better his numbers would be up as well (and this whole discussion would be obsolete)
I feel comfortable with Brian as backup because he has started before BUT only if our OL would play better (less mobility, holding on to the ball longer).
In the mean time I root for any QB who will start for us and wish and hope the best for him and many wins.
Honestly, I am being accused of being a Fiedler homer...jaybot..whatever. Only because I refuse to solely lay blame on Jay unless it is deserved.
My opinion is fairly easy on that subject. Always was. Jay is not a HOFer..hardly a pro-bowler. His deep throws may not be the prettiest ones but he is able to complete them. Jay has a lot of intangibles of a QB which makes him a winner.
The question is: can we win it all with Jay at QB? Absolutely. If you play to Jay's strength (and the teams strength) we have a real good shot.
The funny thing is that people always complain that Norv has to make the offense work for Jay's strength. Isn't that true for all QBs? Wasn't our offense geared for passing under marino because that was his strength? Handing of surely wasn't a Marino strength.
Jay is being hung out to dry pretty badly. We have more flaws than Jay. OL is one...WR is the other. Is one bigger than the other? Who knows. All I know is to have a solid passing game you have to have an OL who can block, a WR who can get open and runs the right routes and a QB who can get the ball there.
Now, without 1 and 2 not functioning we will not know if 3 will.
There is not much difference between Brian and Jay. I have seen a lot of pre-season camps, pre-season games to say that Brian is what Denver fans claim he is: a weak armed QB. Funny...just like Jay.
He may have been a stronger armed QB once but that was before surgery on his throwing shoulder.
I think Brian will fail miserably. Not because he is a bad QB but he is less mobil and holds onto the ball longer...behind our OL that is a futile task. Sage (and I am really high on Sage) will fail miserably as well.
I don't know how mobile Jay will be with a brace on but it might be just enough to escape our Swiss Cheese OL.
If our OL would play at least average and our WRs would get seperation and jay put up the same numbers as he does now, I'd agree, change QBs asap. But it is not so.
I am not getting caught up in the name Griese. For me the "legacy" is not bound to continue, and no "legend" has returned...just because of a last name. His probowl season is unimpressive because it was accomplished over a span of 10 games (I just posted a 10 game stretch of Jay with similiar numbers on DT) and winning a national championship means diddly nothing...just ask a handful of UM QBs.
Brian is a pocket passer. To have a successful pocket passer you have to have the protection from the OL. We don't have that. A pocket passer also needs playmakers at the WR slot. Players who recognize that there is a blitz coming, WRs who have the state of mind knowing that my QB is in trouble and come back and help out (look at Moss, Keyshawn and Harrison...or for that matter recall our very own Marc's brothers). We have neither.
Playcalling has been a factor as well. Rerun the last game..heck..rerun any game this year. Our scoring drives came when we mixed it up on 1st down. Run Ricky on 1st down for no gain or loss of yardage puts the QB in obvious passing situations on 2nd and 3rd and long. It may work once in a while but is bound to fail more often then not. No matter who starts for us. There is only a few QBs (less than a handful) I would trust right now to be in a constant 2nd and long and 3rd and long. Manning, Favre, Vick...come to mind.
Like I said Jay is being hung out to dry: play calling is not to his strength, OL is porous and our WR have no play making ability.
I put play call on top because you can overcome flaws in your offense and I am surprised a bit that Norv has regressed a little (from last year). Or the coaching staff has way to much faith in our OL.
It is bad when the fans in the stands are calling first downs before the snap "1st down...run ricky for no gain" and they are right 95% of the time. I have no doubt that what we see, the DC sees.
OK..after all my rambling to answer the question: I prefer Jay in because...
a) he can play better
b) for the current state of our OL he is better suited
c) if our OL would play better his numbers would be up as well (and this whole discussion would be obsolete)
I feel comfortable with Brian as backup because he has started before BUT only if our OL would play better (less mobility, holding on to the ball longer).
In the mean time I root for any QB who will start for us and wish and hope the best for him and many wins.
phins_4_ever
E12 FH Tailgate Gang
Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
Just to add another comment which is seperate issue...thats why I post it independently.
You are wrong if you think that there are no fans who want Jay to fail at all costs.
Here is an example: last game there was a little ol' lady behind us...well she wasn't old but she sounded like an old little lady (very high pitch broken voice) who cheered for every incompletion and was upset about every completion by Jay. She wanted Brian in there so desperatly that several times when Jay was under heavy pressure she was screaming "get him, break his leg so Griese can come in". If she would not have been a little lady they would have thrown her into the lower level.
On this very messageboard there is at least one poster (maybe more but under different names) who wished last year on another messageboard that "jay would tear his ligaments so they look like crab meat". A week or two later when Jay broke his thumb the follow up post was "I finally can enjoy the Dolphins win".
On this MB one poster came very close:
http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25084
while the message was watered down the subject line came very close to cheering an injury.
So,there are "fans" who may not think like you and me.
Heck, just ask "Justafan" or "Clump" about the Johnson and Flutie years. Bills fan literally ripped each other apart and wishes for injury for the non favored QB were on the daily agenda.
Just to add another comment which is seperate issue...thats why I post it independently.
You are wrong if you think that there are no fans who want Jay to fail at all costs.
Here is an example: last game there was a little ol' lady behind us...well she wasn't old but she sounded like an old little lady (very high pitch broken voice) who cheered for every incompletion and was upset about every completion by Jay. She wanted Brian in there so desperatly that several times when Jay was under heavy pressure she was screaming "get him, break his leg so Griese can come in". If she would not have been a little lady they would have thrown her into the lower level.
On this very messageboard there is at least one poster (maybe more but under different names) who wished last year on another messageboard that "jay would tear his ligaments so they look like crab meat". A week or two later when Jay broke his thumb the follow up post was "I finally can enjoy the Dolphins win".
On this MB one poster came very close:
http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25084
while the message was watered down the subject line came very close to cheering an injury.
So,there are "fans" who may not think like you and me.
Heck, just ask "Justafan" or "Clump" about the Johnson and Flutie years. Bills fan literally ripped each other apart and wishes for injury for the non favored QB were on the daily agenda.
Dolfan02
Somebody kick Huizenga for me
Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
I understand what your saying, but you don't realize what your indirectly implying with your comments that I had to minimize to your thesis at the end. You would prefer to have the WHOLE team, mainly the OL play at perfection rather than for us to improve in one position of our team. You actually admit that Jay does not have the talent to create his own plays and needs life support from his offensive teammates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never ever ever remember talking about our OL when Marino played. Why is it such a factor now? Why do we need to pamper our QB by constantly suggesting that his offensive counterparts need to improve as opposed to focusing on our centerpiece which is the QB? I'm not looking to put all the blame on Fiedler, don't get me wrong. Football is a team sport, so no individual is solely to blame. But when the core player is constantly relieved by making the same excuses about players around him, its time to start making changes at the core of it all. Enough changes have been made to this team that evolve around the QB. We have put together great players in many phases of our team that some great teams would die for, at what point do we realize our centerpiece is still not improving with Fiedler?
I understand what your saying, but you don't realize what your indirectly implying with your comments that I had to minimize to your thesis at the end. You would prefer to have the WHOLE team, mainly the OL play at perfection rather than for us to improve in one position of our team. You actually admit that Jay does not have the talent to create his own plays and needs life support from his offensive teammates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never ever ever remember talking about our OL when Marino played. Why is it such a factor now? Why do we need to pamper our QB by constantly suggesting that his offensive counterparts need to improve as opposed to focusing on our centerpiece which is the QB? I'm not looking to put all the blame on Fiedler, don't get me wrong. Football is a team sport, so no individual is solely to blame. But when the core player is constantly relieved by making the same excuses about players around him, its time to start making changes at the core of it all. Enough changes have been made to this team that evolve around the QB. We have put together great players in many phases of our team that some great teams would die for, at what point do we realize our centerpiece is still not improving with Fiedler?
phins_4_ever
E12 FH Tailgate Gang
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
perfection?
I hardly expect that fromour OL. I want to see them play average first. They have played horrendously this year in all aspects. There might be one or two shining lights (players) but as a unit they playing as dark as the night is.
What great players on offense?
Ricky is one...McM might be one one day...same as with CC. Where are those great players?
McKnight? Thompson?
Where?
Even with Ricky's greatness he still needs at least an average OL.
Now..show me all the great players on O?
perfection?
I hardly expect that fromour OL. I want to see them play average first. They have played horrendously this year in all aspects. There might be one or two shining lights (players) but as a unit they playing as dark as the night is.
What great players on offense?
Ricky is one...McM might be one one day...same as with CC. Where are those great players?
McKnight? Thompson?
Where?
Even with Ricky's greatness he still needs at least an average OL.
Now..show me all the great players on O?
Dolfan02
Somebody kick Huizenga for me
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
I've said we have put together great players in ALL phases of our game. Ricky, Chambers, McMichael, Konrad, Ruddy, Zach, Taylor, Madison, Surtain, Marion, Knight, Ogunleye, Hendricks and Mare on special teams. Great players we recently had, have gotten old, or are injured: Dixon, T. Perry, Bowens, Gadsden, Seau to name a few. Our starting OL is the same veterans from last year except one rookie, starting in place of Dixon! And thats Wade Smith who supposedly has impressed the coaches. Ruddy, T. Perry, Nails, McKinney, and T. Wade are all back from last year. Where were you last year criticing the same OL when Ricky was blowing up? I haven't seen anything that suggests the OL is as terrible as you claim.
I've said we have put together great players in ALL phases of our game. Ricky, Chambers, McMichael, Konrad, Ruddy, Zach, Taylor, Madison, Surtain, Marion, Knight, Ogunleye, Hendricks and Mare on special teams. Great players we recently had, have gotten old, or are injured: Dixon, T. Perry, Bowens, Gadsden, Seau to name a few. Our starting OL is the same veterans from last year except one rookie, starting in place of Dixon! And thats Wade Smith who supposedly has impressed the coaches. Ruddy, T. Perry, Nails, McKinney, and T. Wade are all back from last year. Where were you last year criticing the same OL when Ricky was blowing up? I haven't seen anything that suggests the OL is as terrible as you claim.
phins_4_ever
E12 FH Tailgate Gang
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
You might want to re-read your own post...
<i>mainly the OL play at perfection rather than for us to improve in one position of our team</i>
And I answered you.....not perfection just average.
Great? What defines great?
Ricky great? Yep.
CC? nope...
McM? not yet...
Konrad? good not great...
Then you list some defensive players which have nothing to do with the offense. The units play their own game for the common good of the team...wins.
And yes you are right that we have the identical (or almost) as last year. The OL was a problem last year as well. It was overcome by excellent play calling. Remember, the best play calling is when you play to your strength and not your weaknesses. As a matter of fact I do know that we are talking about the OL now for the 3rd straight year. Our OL has degressed from being average last year.
I know where that convo is leading to and I am not biting. You asked me a question, I answered. Sorry if you do not like it but I will not say "replace Fiedler" just to make you happy. I see more problems on our offense then just Jay for you it is Jay. So be it. Only time will tell.
I am not into this to win "internet arguments" and win "imaginary dollars" so I can buy myself some AOL time. My only mindset is for my beloved Phins to win.
BTW, the OL was not an issue because .....
a) the entire offense was geared for passing
b) we had the best pass protective OL there was...for many years
c) we had WRs for the most part who were playmakers
d) Dan had the quickest release of any QB I have ever seen...
but then again you just proved that you are suffering under PMS (post marino syndrome)...here is a healing advice: there is no other Dan.
You might want to re-read your own post...
<i>mainly the OL play at perfection rather than for us to improve in one position of our team</i>
And I answered you.....not perfection just average.
Great? What defines great?
Ricky great? Yep.
CC? nope...
McM? not yet...
Konrad? good not great...
Then you list some defensive players which have nothing to do with the offense. The units play their own game for the common good of the team...wins.
And yes you are right that we have the identical (or almost) as last year. The OL was a problem last year as well. It was overcome by excellent play calling. Remember, the best play calling is when you play to your strength and not your weaknesses. As a matter of fact I do know that we are talking about the OL now for the 3rd straight year. Our OL has degressed from being average last year.
I know where that convo is leading to and I am not biting. You asked me a question, I answered. Sorry if you do not like it but I will not say "replace Fiedler" just to make you happy. I see more problems on our offense then just Jay for you it is Jay. So be it. Only time will tell.
I am not into this to win "internet arguments" and win "imaginary dollars" so I can buy myself some AOL time. My only mindset is for my beloved Phins to win.
BTW, the OL was not an issue because .....
a) the entire offense was geared for passing
b) we had the best pass protective OL there was...for many years
c) we had WRs for the most part who were playmakers
d) Dan had the quickest release of any QB I have ever seen...
but then again you just proved that you are suffering under PMS (post marino syndrome)...here is a healing advice: there is no other Dan.
Dolfan02
Somebody kick Huizenga for me
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
:D Very clever jokes there. BUT believe me I'm the last guy to be suffering from "Post Marino Syndrome". I know I might come under attack for this one: but I was begging for Marino to retire in his last 2 years. And 2 years before that from 1996-1997, with his stats plunging, a missed playoff, a first-round loss in the playoffs, I was already realizing he needed to be benched. And no matter how "perfect" the team was around him, we weren't going to win it all, BUT no one dared speak against the all-great Marino not even Jimmy Johnson was allowed to bench Marino if he wanted to. Too bad, who knows what would have happened, well at least Dan got his records right?
Back to the issue: I'm glad to hear you want to win. Believe me, every true Fin fan here in this site wants to win. Thats nothing new. I especially want the Fins to win a SB for personal reasons I won't get into. So for that reason, I analyze the team extensively and realize that Fiedler is the cancer of the team. I am SICK AND TIRED of the same excuses for Fielder. I don't care about "winning arguements" as you stated, but I do want to help fellow Fin fans realize what are the team's flaws. How many times do we have to go through the same results year after year before everyone realizes where the problems lay? How many times will you point that finger of yours around the whole team before you point it at the centerpiece? I'll root on Fiedler this year because I have no choice and I wish the best for the team, but I know where the problem lies and I refuse to be in denial like some people.
:D Very clever jokes there. BUT believe me I'm the last guy to be suffering from "Post Marino Syndrome". I know I might come under attack for this one: but I was begging for Marino to retire in his last 2 years. And 2 years before that from 1996-1997, with his stats plunging, a missed playoff, a first-round loss in the playoffs, I was already realizing he needed to be benched. And no matter how "perfect" the team was around him, we weren't going to win it all, BUT no one dared speak against the all-great Marino not even Jimmy Johnson was allowed to bench Marino if he wanted to. Too bad, who knows what would have happened, well at least Dan got his records right?
Back to the issue: I'm glad to hear you want to win. Believe me, every true Fin fan here in this site wants to win. Thats nothing new. I especially want the Fins to win a SB for personal reasons I won't get into. So for that reason, I analyze the team extensively and realize that Fiedler is the cancer of the team. I am SICK AND TIRED of the same excuses for Fielder. I don't care about "winning arguements" as you stated, but I do want to help fellow Fin fans realize what are the team's flaws. How many times do we have to go through the same results year after year before everyone realizes where the problems lay? How many times will you point that finger of yours around the whole team before you point it at the centerpiece? I'll root on Fiedler this year because I have no choice and I wish the best for the team, but I know where the problem lies and I refuse to be in denial like some people.
phins_4_ever
E12 FH Tailgate Gang
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
but I do want to help fellow Fin fans realize what are the team's flaws
Oh, yet another allmighty who stands above everybody else.
Let's do that....
I point my finger where I think the problem lies...and you do the same where you think the problem is. Let's leave it at that.
but I do want to help fellow Fin fans realize what are the team's flaws
Oh, yet another allmighty who stands above everybody else.
Let's do that....
I point my finger where I think the problem lies...and you do the same where you think the problem is. Let's leave it at that.
DeDolfan
Practice Squad
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Night.
Marino's last 2 years?? Hear this............. during that period, i was soooooo much clamoring for us to draft a young QB, even griese at the time, to come in and allow him to be tutored by the very best. griese is just one of the ones we coulda had that year (3rd rnd) and JJ goes out and blows chunks with the likes of john Avery and such. And now, here we are, years later with the positon still unresolved at best. Build the D, build the D, fine, but you still cannot ignore the single most important position on a team for so long thru 2 different coaches mind you and "expect" to WIN THE DIVISION AND GO FROM THERE !! What a crock! matter of fact (IMO, of course) Wanny IS a crock !!
Marino's last 2 years?? Hear this............. during that period, i was soooooo much clamoring for us to draft a young QB, even griese at the time, to come in and allow him to be tutored by the very best. griese is just one of the ones we coulda had that year (3rd rnd) and JJ goes out and blows chunks with the likes of john Avery and such. And now, here we are, years later with the positon still unresolved at best. Build the D, build the D, fine, but you still cannot ignore the single most important position on a team for so long thru 2 different coaches mind you and "expect" to WIN THE DIVISION AND GO FROM THERE !! What a crock! matter of fact (IMO, of course) Wanny IS a crock !!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If I were Dave Wannstadt I WOULD start Griese this Monday Ni
Agree completetely, I have been wanting us to use a high draft pick on a QB for the last six years.
Shula understood the importance of the position and drafted Marino even though WoodStrock had just taken us to a SB.
In today's world of perform or perish, I think the FO hasn't wanted to take the time in developing a young QB.
Agree completetely, I have been wanting us to use a high draft pick on a QB for the last six years.
Shula understood the importance of the position and drafted Marino even though WoodStrock had just taken us to a SB.
In today's world of perform or perish, I think the FO hasn't wanted to take the time in developing a young QB.