If there is one player we should not bring back, its Hartline | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

If there is one player we should not bring back, its Hartline

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MiamiNative0722

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I understand he had the best season out of all our free agents but hear me out.


  • If you want one of the big 4 (Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, Harvin) AND a receiver in the first 3 rounds, we CANNOT bring back Hartline.

If you bring him back, you aren't going to give another big contract to another receiver and draft one in the early rounds. You might do one or the other but not both. The more likely choice would be Hartline and a rookie becauase you wouldn't want to dedicate so much money to the position. But lets say for some crazy reason Ireland pays Hartline and one of the big 4, I GUARANTEE you we won't draft a rookie in the first 3 rounds to split snaps with Hartline for 4-5 years.


  • If you bring him back, it will be for 6+ million and that is way overpaying, limiting what else we can spend at the position.

This is reiterating what is said in the first paragraph. If you spend that much money on Hartline, you won't be able to do both of drafting and getting one of the big 4. You can do one, but not both. Point being it will take too many assets to the position and you'd have to be splitting snaps.

The Solution


  • Let Hartline walk, go get one of the big 4, preferably Jennings or Harvin, (Jennings because he fits the scheme and is worth the money he is expected to get, Harvin because he is 24, mvp candidate before getting injured, and is worth the 10 million hes asking), and DRAFT a rookie to play opposite your big 4 receiver.

If you bring back Hartline, you won't be able to do both these things in the solution, plus we would be overpaying for Hartline who is not a redzone threat.
 
Who said we're going to overpay for Hartline? Also as I recall most people usually freak out when we have players who hit the open market, remember when y'all thought Soliai was going to get a huge contract? Did he get one?
 
Let our 2nd best offensive player walk when you can re-sign him at a reasonable price? That's thinking.
 
I'd keep Hartline.

As to the "Big 4" ... As far as I'm concerned it's the "Big 3" - I want nothing to do with that headache Harvin.
 
MiamiNative0722 said:
I understand he had the best season out of all our free agents but hear me out.


  • If you want one of the big 4 (Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, Harvin) AND a receiver in the first 3 rounds, we CANNOT bring back Hartline.

If you bring him back, you aren't going to give another big contract to another receiver and draft one in the early rounds. You might do one or the other but not both. The more likely choice would be Hartline and a rookie becauase you wouldn't want to dedicate so much money to the position. But lets say for some crazy reason Ireland pays Hartline and one of the big 4, I GUARANTEE you we won't draft a rookie in the first 3 rounds to split snaps with Hartline for 4-5 years.


  • If you bring him back, it will be for 6+ million and that is way overpaying, limiting what else we can spend at the position.

This is reiterating what is said in the first paragraph. If you spend that much money on Hartline, you won't be able to do both of drafting and getting one of the big 4. You can do one, but not both. Point being it will take too many assets to the position and you'd have to be splitting snaps.

The Solution


  • Let Hartline walk, go get one of the big 4, preferably Jennings or Harvin, (Jennings because he fits the scheme and is worth the money he is expected to get, Harvin because he is 24, mvp candidate before getting injured, and is worth the 10 million hes asking), and DRAFT a rookie to play opposite your big 4 receiver.

If you bring back Hartline, you won't be able to do both these things in the solution, plus we would be overpaying for Hartline who is not a redzone threat.
Click to expand...

I think the thing people on here seem to forget is that Philbin nor Ireland seem to like drafting wide receivers early, and with reason. Draft size or cornerbacks early, positions where talent makes a bigger difference. Wide receivers are so hard to evaluate in college...we drafted 3 late (Fuller, Cunningham, Matthews) and only 1 stuck. But of those 3, the coaching staff seems excited about Rishard Matthews.

It's more about guys who can get seperation and catch the ball consistently. The splash we will make in free agency at wide receiver will be half PR, half football move. But it makes sense to pay a proven guy over a question mark.
 
Man this guy has a lot of threads, lol.

The mistake people make is thinking that I'm just a hater and I hate Brian Hartline. Not true at all. In fact if you rewind to about 5 months ago, it seemed like half the damn board insisted that Hartline get cut because of his crime of having to deal with calf issues that stemmed from his life-threatening appendicitis complication. I posted videos of his work in 2011 trying to show people that there's no way he should even lose his place as a starter, let alone get cut. He works the sidelines really, really well...and he gets open.

But now we're faced with a different sort of question. He's asking for a 5 year, $33 million contract and he should be looking at closer to a 4 year, $16 million contract. His talent does not warrant $6.6 million a year. It just doesn't. He's shown that by not really being a dynamic player.

He can't hit that extra gear to run under deep passes, which places all the more weight on Ryan Tannehill's shoulders to be superbly accurate. There was one throw that was probably about 2 feet thrown too far, everyone is sitting here talking about how Ryan Tannehill needs to hit that throw...and nobody (except me) stopped to look at the fact that the throw was 160 feet through the air on a rope and only off by 24 inches. You'd like the throw to be perfect of course, but Hartline's complete lack of that extra gear made it so that the throw would've had to be perfect. Other receivers that are ACTUAL deep threats have bigger windows to where their quarterbacks can get away with more.

Meanwhile, he's not a RAC player, clearly. He doesn't keep his feet after the catch. He doesn't show strength to break tackles. Think of the preseason when we finally saw Rishard Matthews get an opportunity against the Carolina Panthers. Matthews runs a slant and catches the football a few yards shy of the end zone. He lowers his head and bulls his way with physical power the rest of the distance until he's in for paydirt. Or think of the Michael Crabtree touchdown in the Super Bowl. Bernard Pollard is in underneath coverage, and Cary Williams comes down from his deep coverage, and both players converge on Crabtree to try and make a tackle after he catches the ball. They fall off and Crabtree is still standing, and he waltzes into the end zone. These are things Brian Hartline can't do. And he doesn't make up for it by being cat quick like a Davone Bess or Steve Smith, guys that can make you miss with agility.

He doesn't show the strong hands and physicality to come down with the football in 50/50 or challenged catch situations. The only 50/50 situations where he consistently comes down with the football are when he's challenged by the 12th defender...the sidelines. He's fantastic at pulling in the football with the sidelines hugging him and threatening to make him go out of bounds. But he's not so fantastic when he's got actual defenders physically getting on him. And as for his tendency to drop the football, that's pretty well established statistically but not very talked about, his drops. He's not quite James Jones as far as dropping the football, but he's not far off that either. He's lower half of the league.

Going back to the speed thing, when he does get behind the defense because he's a good route runner and a savvy football player, he gets caught from behind unless the coverage is blown to a very large degree. The latter happened against the Arizona Cardinals on his 80 yard touchdown. Kerry Rhodes blew that coverage by a very LARGE margin. Yet, even so...Adrian Wilson caught him. With the lead Hartline had on everyone in the defense, he should've practically been able to walk into the end zone by the end. But Wilson very nearly prevented the score. And earlier in the game when Tannehill found Hartline who had managed to sneak behind William Gay (who fell in coverage)...Hartline was caught from behind. Instead of a touchdown, the Dolphins had to operate their red zone offense.

This is literally where the rubber meets the road of why he doesn't have touchdowns. It's not a fluke. If you look at targets and catches from 2002 to 2012, you get 367 wide receivers that qualify with either 60+ catches in a season (2002 to 2005) or 100+ targets in a season (2006 to 2012). Only 2 of those 367 wide receivers had a lower touchdown percentage on their catches than Brian Hartline did in 2012. That's it. Torry Holt in Jacksonville the year before he retired, and Laveranues Coles in Washington when Pat Ramsey was throwing the football.

And maybe you could forgive that, IF he had shown a tendency to stick the ball in the end zone in previous years (as had both Holt and Coles). But in 2011 he had 1 touchdown and in 2010 he had 1 touchdown. You could also forgive it IF you've seen the kind of physical ability that suggests he can do this regularly, and circumstances just worked against him. But that's not the case either, as I talked about above.
 
etuoo33 said:
let our 2nd best offensive player walk when you can re-sign him at a reasonable price? That's thinking.
Click to expand...

that's the problem
he's the second best offensive player....................2 tds in the last 42 games
 
Hartline works well with Tannehill, he's a team guy, fits in with the offensive scheme, would be a great complement to a Wallace, or Jennings. His asking price isn't outrageous and a lot of people believe he's earned that kind of contract. He is a receiver who came into his own last year and looks to only be improving. Remember he was out for almost all of training camp and didn't play a down in the preseason. He's a good piece to keep moving forward.
 
6 Million a year for Hartline? Hell no. 5 Mil a year MAX, and personally I think he is worth more toward 4 - 4.5. I would't mind a 4 year, 20 mil contract though.
 
I think Hartline and his agent will realize they won't get 5-6 million and we should get him for 4 million with incentives. If we resign Hartline I think that eliminates Wallace and Bowe but not Jennings. If we have Jennings, Hartline, Bess, Mathews and then draft a WR in round 1-2 we will be fine.
 
dolfin530 said:
I think Hartline and his agent will realize they won't get 5-6 million and we should get him for 4 million with incentives. If we resign Hartline I think that eliminates Wallace and Bowe but not Jennings. If we have Jennings, Hartline, Bess, Mathews and then draft a WR in round 1-2 we will be fine.
Click to expand...

Did you read my post? You're not going to draft one that early if you bring Hartline back and get Jennings. You're not going to draft a top receiver to split snaps with Hartline for 4+ years.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------
ckparrothead said:
Man this guy has a lot of threads, lol.

The mistake people make is thinking that I'm just a hater and I hate Brian Hartline. Not true at all. In fact if you rewind to about 5 months ago, it seemed like half the damn board insisted that Hartline get cut because of his crime of having to deal with calf issues that stemmed from his life-threatening appendicitis complication. I posted videos of his work in 2011 trying to show people that there's no way he should even lose his place as a starter, let alone get cut. He works the sidelines really, really well...and he gets open.

But now we're faced with a different sort of question. He's asking for a 5 year, $33 million contract and he should be looking at closer to a 4 year, $16 million contract. His talent does not warrant $6.6 million a year. It just doesn't. He's shown that by not really being a dynamic player.

He can't hit that extra gear to run under deep passes, which places all the more weight on Ryan Tannehill's shoulders to be superbly accurate. There was one throw that was probably about 2 feet thrown too far, everyone is sitting here talking about how Ryan Tannehill needs to hit that throw...and nobody (except me) stopped to look at the fact that the throw was 160 feet through the air on a rope and only off by 24 inches. You'd like the throw to be perfect of course, but Hartline's complete lack of that extra gear made it so that the throw would've had to be perfect. Other receivers that are ACTUAL deep threats have bigger windows to where their quarterbacks can get away with more.

Meanwhile, he's not a RAC player, clearly. He doesn't keep his feet after the catch. He doesn't show strength to break tackles. Think of the preseason when we finally saw Rishard Matthews get an opportunity against the Carolina Panthers. Matthews runs a slant and catches the football a few yards shy of the end zone. He lowers his head and bulls his way with physical power the rest of the distance until he's in for paydirt. Or think of the Michael Crabtree touchdown in the Super Bowl. Bernard Pollard is in underneath coverage, and Cary Williams comes down from his deep coverage, and both players converge on Crabtree to try and make a tackle after he catches the ball. They fall off and Crabtree is still standing, and he waltzes into the end zone. These are things Brian Hartline can't do. And he doesn't make up for it by being cat quick like a Davone Bess or Steve Smith, guys that can make you miss with agility.

He doesn't show the strong hands and physicality to come down with the football in 50/50 or challenged catch situations. The only 50/50 situations where he consistently comes down with the football are when he's challenged by the 12th defender...the sidelines. He's fantastic at pulling in the football with the sidelines hugging him and threatening to make him go out of bounds. But he's not so fantastic when he's got actual defenders physically getting on him. And as for his tendency to drop the football, that's pretty well established statistically but not very talked about, his drops. He's not quite James Jones as far as dropping the football, but he's not far off that either. He's lower half of the league.

Going back to the speed thing, when he does get behind the defense because he's a good route runner and a savvy football player, he gets caught from behind unless the coverage is blown to a very large degree. The latter happened against the Arizona Cardinals on his 80 yard touchdown. Kerry Rhodes blew that coverage by a very LARGE margin. Yet, even so...Adrian Wilson caught him. With the lead Hartline had on everyone in the defense, he should've practically been able to walk into the end zone by the end. But Wilson very nearly prevented the score. And earlier in the game when Tannehill found Hartline who had managed to sneak behind William Gay (who fell in coverage)...Hartline was caught from behind. Instead of a touchdown, the Dolphins had to operate their red zone offense.

This is literally where the rubber meets the road of why he doesn't have touchdowns. It's not a fluke. If you look at targets and catches from 2002 to 2012, you get 367 wide receivers that qualify with either 60+ catches in a season (2002 to 2005) or 100+ targets in a season (2006 to 2012). Only 2 of those 367 wide receivers had a lower touchdown percentage on their catches than Brian Hartline did in 2012. That's it. Torry Holt in Jacksonville the year before he retired, and Laveranues Coles in Washington when Pat Ramsey was throwing the football.

And maybe you could forgive that, IF he had shown a tendency to stick the ball in the end zone in previous years (as had both Holt and Coles). But in 2011 he had 1 touchdown and in 2010 he had 1 touchdown. You could also forgive it IF you've seen the kind of physical ability that suggests he can do this regularly, and circumstances just worked against him. But that's not the case either, as I talked about above.
Click to expand...

Thank you lol

It's not worth bringing him back if you want to do both of getting Jennings and a rookie. We can do Jennings+Hartline, Jennings+Rookie, or Hartline+Rookie but not Jennings+Hartline+rookie. I prefer Jennings+rookie.
 
MiamiNative0722 said:
I understand he had the best season out of all our free agents but hear me out.


  • If you want one of the big 4 (Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, Harvin) AND a receiver in the first 3 rounds, we CANNOT bring back Hartline.

If you bring him back, you aren't going to give another big contract to another receiver and draft one in the early rounds. You might do one or the other but not both. The more likely choice would be Hartline and a rookie because you wouldn't want to dedicate so much money to the position. But lets say for some crazy reason Ireland pays Hartline and one of the big 4, I GUARANTEE you we won't draft a rookie in the first 3 rounds to split snaps with Hartline for 4-5 years.


  • If you bring him back, it will be for 6+ million and that is way overpaying, limiting what else we can spend at the position.

This is reiterating what is said in the first paragraph. If you spend that much money on Hartline, you won't be able to do both of drafting and getting one of the big 4. You can do one, but not both. Point being it will take too many assets to the position and you'd have to be splitting snaps.

The Solution


  • Let Hartline walk, go get one of the big 4, preferably Jennings or Harvin, (Jennings because he fits the scheme and is worth the money he is expected to get, Harvin because he is 24, mvp candidate before getting injured, and is worth the 10 million hes asking), and DRAFT a rookie to play opposite your big 4 receiver.

If you bring back Hartline, you won't be able to do both these things in the solution, plus we would be overpaying for Hartline who is not a redzone threat.
Click to expand...
It's not about the money it's about team development.

In today's NFL, there are dominant, tall, strong, speedy elite receivers like Megatron at Detroit Lions, A.J. Green at Cincinnati Bengals or Julio Jones at Atlanta Falcons. Each of them owns impressive skills and the offensive system works around them, they are what experts call "alpha receivers". Well alpha receivers outshine the rest of the offense but in order to be effective, they must share the load. It's hard to share when you require to have the football to increase your bonuses and these alpha receivers usually have "diva" personalities.

Joe Philbin, Miami Dolphins HC believes that such elements reduce the efficiency of the offense as these players disappear from time to time (because of injury, effective defense or just a bad day) and the offense is incapable of adjusting. So Philbin and Mike Sherman, Dolphins' OC share the idea of an unpredictable offense, with many targets and all of them as good as the next. Also unlike some of his predecessors, Joe Philbin has been clear with the fan base. When Jeff Ireland has expressed the team is looking for play-makers, they aren't meaning to add a Brandon Marshall nor Megatron. They want sure hands, YAC and skilled guys. Sometimes that talent is hidden not out shinning.

Miami roster in 2012 was competent, let's say Dolphins were one-guy shy of being dominant.

Brian Hartline seems to have finished his evolution and proved his worth as starting receiver.
Also Davone Bess, Rishard Mathews and Jeff Fuller deserve consideration. All of them are second tiers but important pieces of this multi-target offense.

With one of your "Big 4" plus Hartline, Bess (at least in 2013) and Mathews, there's no room to use a top quality rookie.

But I don't share the idea that "If you bring him back, it will be for 6+ million and that is way overpaying, limiting what else we can spend at the position". Brian's agent will tell everyone his client is asking for a $8-10 million contract, but that is part of free agency negotiations. Hartline will get important money, a figure close to $6 millions/year in a 5 years contract, but less than 4 millions will be warranted. That's decent money.

On the other hand, everybody has different impressions, but let me express I don't see Wallace nor Harvin as upgrades for Hartline as both have healthy questions. Jennings is an obvious upgrade and Bowe is just an equivalent.
 
MiamiNative0722 said:
Did you read my post? You're not going to draft one that early if you bring Hartline back and get Jennings. You're not going to draft a top receiver to split snaps with Hartline for 4+ years.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------



Thank you lol

It's not worth bringing him back if you want to do both of getting Jennings and a rookie. We can do Jennings+Hartline, Jennings+Rookie, or Hartline+Rookie but not Jennings+Hartline+rookie. I prefer Jennings+rookie.
Click to expand...
what makes you think ireland isn't going to invest heavily in the two of our weakest areas? I see us resigning either bess, hartline or both, signing either wallace, or jennings and drafting a WR or two.
 
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