If there is one player we should not bring back, its Hartline

[TealAttack13]

I'm all for keeping the guy. He wouldn't be a bad second option, probably slide to third option in a couple of years if we draft someone and they develop. At that rate, you could probably deal him somewhere. Free up the space and move on, because you wouldn't pay a third option that much, but until then, I'm fine with keeping him here. There's going to be a lot of change around Tanny. We should at least keep someone he had chemistry with at this level.

 

[Chuck-182]

Let our 2nd best offensive player walk when you can re-sign him at a reasonable price? That's thinking.

When there's much better options out there, yes, it is thinking. Look I love Hartline, but if we could get a Jennings or a Harvin AND draft a receiver that can be better than Hartline? Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[russianbear]

I think it's likely he comes back, his value isn't quite what he thinks it is in the free market. If he will be reasonable and budge off his asking price to under 6 mil I believe we will wrap him up. Now, if we sign both Wallace and Jennings, I sincerely doubt Hartline returns....

 

[ckparrothead]

Plus, to anyone who has seen either play, it's apparent that Patterson is a play-maker, a guy who scores TD's. To anyone who watches Hartline and is honest, it's clear (as your earlier post clearly captures) why he doesn't score TD's. Hartline put up as many yards as he did, because Tannehill is very good at throwing sideline routes. Hartline requires a QB who can throw him open. If you put a dynamic player in those same situations, there would be enough separation for the WR to do some serious damage after the catch.

People are going to have their opinion of Brian Hartline and people are going to have their opinion on Cordarrelle Patterson. I'm not force feeding opinions on either to anyone, least of all finfan54. I respect what he thinks of Cordarrelle and even share his fears to some degree. I also think well of Brian Hartline to some degree.

My issue is just about a fair presentation of the facts and evidence. That's all.

 

[ckparrothead]

Has anyone on here every played QB on a team with WRs that were slower than the DBs? How you could throw the perfect throw to them downfield, only to have a much faster DB beat them to the ball? How you had to throw into zero separation windows or scheme WRs open?

If so, you know what RT was dealing with all year long, in Hartline and Bess.

LD

I think that's the thing that is understated whenever we see complaints about an overthrow or underthrow, etc. When you've got a guy with speed it's like throwing lawn darts into a bigger target circle. It's harder to miss.

 

[Brad528]

Hartline had a better season then all the so called big three wrs on the market. Plus showed he had the best timing woth a qb this team has scene in awhile. letting him walk to sign another player who hasn't proven to have an y chemistry with our qb would be just idiotic its fhe type of move that keeps us from winning jeff ireland is that you posting this

 

[ckparrothead]

Greg Jennings battled a hernia all year. That's not necessarily a clean comparison.

And Mike Wallace had a better year period. I'll take 7 more touchdowns over 245 more yards any day. And so would most teams.

 

[ckparrothead]

I think Greg Jennings' contract could be modeled after the one signed by Anquan Boldin in 2010 with the Baltimore Ravens. And not only was that contract reasonable, one could easily argue in the negotiations process that Jennings should be paid less.

1. Anquan Boldin was going to turn 30 years old in the upcoming NFL season, just like Greg Jennings. They were both 29, going on 30. In this, the two are similar.

2. There's an argument that Greg Jennings has been made by the QBs throwing to him. Similarly, there was an argument that Anquan Boldin's downslope was being masked by the fact that he had Larry Fitzgerald opposite him and Larry drew all the defenses' attention. Boldin also had a pretty durn good quarterback throwing to him in Kurt Warner.

3. Anquan Boldin's contract was 4 years, $29 million with $10 million guaranteed. That included a $6.125 million signing bonus, a $2.875 first year roster bonus, and another $1 million in guarantees elsewhere in the deal. The average was $7.25 million per year.

4. Career-wise, the two were similar. Greg Jennings has 425 catches for 6537 yards and 53 touchdowns in 96 games. To that point in his career, Boldin had 586 catches for 7520 yards and 44 TDs in 95 games. Very similar, IMO...as the 1,000 extra yards balance against the 9 extra TDs.

5. However, Anquan Boldin was not coming off an injured year, unlike Jennings. Boldin caught 84 balls for 1024 yards and 4 TDs in 2009. Jennings only caught 46 balls for 481 yards and 5 TDs in 10 games of 2012, counting playoffs. Boldin also caught 103 balls for 1228 yards and 12 TDs in 15 games en route to a Super Bowl appearance in 2008. Jennings only caught 71 balls for 989 yards and 9 TDs in 14 games counting the playoffs in 2011. All in all, that's 187 catches for 2252 yards and 16 TDs in the two seasons immediately preceding the new contract for Anquan Boldin, versus 117 catches for 1470 yards and 14 TDs for Greg Jennings. That's a pretty big factor.

6. Should there be an inflation premium? Tough to say. The 2009 salary cap was $123 million. The 2010 season was uncapped, but most teams treated it like a capped year and the ones that did not were severely punished by Roger Goodell. When the salary cap was reinstituted in 2011, it was set to $120 million. There it remained in 2012, and it would appear it shall remain there in 2013 as well. If you're an NFL team you may even be able to argue that 2010 contracts are incomparable to 2013 contracts on the basis of there being no cap in 2010. That argument might not go over well, but the fact remains that because the NFLPA essentially "borrowed" in order to keep the 2011 salary cap at $120 million (should've been $116 million, just going off revenues) and to keep the 2012 cap at $120.6 million (should've been $113 million)...it means the 2014 salary cap is not actually going to go up much. The NFL projects that 2014 and 2015 salary caps should only be around $121-122 million. This means that contracts signed from 2009 to 2012 should be perfectly comparable to contracts negotiated in 2013...no inflation adjustment.

Given all this there's actually a good chance that Greg Jennings' contract negotiations would come down to a price point that is similar to what Brian Hartline is currently asking. Brian Hartline wants 5 years, $33 million. That could actually be Greg Jennings' price point, except the deal would likely be shorter, around the same Boldin signed.

If you're asking me whether I would take Greg Jennings or Brian Hartline at the same price...the answer is easy to me. And I don't think the Ravens regret giving Boldin that 4 year, $29 million deal.

I've never seen Brian Hartline do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=osxixxurzvk#t=279s

 

[kcbrown]

I think Greg Jennings' contract could be modeled after the one signed by Anquan Boldin in 2010 with the Baltimore Ravens. And not only was that contract reasonable, one could easily argue in the negotiations process that Jennings should be paid less.

1. Anquan Boldin was going to turn 30 years old in the upcoming NFL season, just like Greg Jennings. They were both 29, going on 30. In this, the two are similar.

2. There's an argument that Greg Jennings has been made by the QBs throwing to him. Similarly, there was an argument that Anquan Boldin's downslope was being masked by the fact that he had Larry Fitzgerald opposite him and Larry drew all the defenses' attention. Boldin also had a pretty durn good quarterback throwing to him in Kurt Warner.

3. Anquan Boldin's contract was 4 years, $29 million with $10 million guaranteed. That included a $6.125 million signing bonus, a $2.875 first year roster bonus, and another $1 million in guarantees elsewhere in the deal. The average was $7.25 million per year.

4. Career-wise, the two were similar. Greg Jennings has 425 catches for 6537 yards and 53 touchdowns in 96 games. To that point in his career, Boldin had 586 catches for 7520 yards and 44 TDs in 95 games. Very similar, IMO...as the 1,000 extra yards balance against the 9 extra TDs.

5. However, Anquan Boldin was not coming off an injured year, unlike Jennings. Boldin caught 84 balls for 1024 yards and 4 TDs in 2009. Jennings only caught 46 balls for 481 yards and 5 TDs in 10 games of 2012, counting playoffs. Boldin also caught 103 balls for 1228 yards and 12 TDs in 15 games en route to a Super Bowl appearance in 2008. Jennings only caught 71 balls for 989 yards and 9 TDs in 14 games counting the playoffs in 2011. All in all, that's 187 catches for 2252 yards and 16 TDs in the two seasons immediately preceding the new contract for Anquan Boldin, versus 117 catches for 1470 yards and 14 TDs for Greg Jennings. That's a pretty big factor.

6. Should there be an inflation premium? Tough to say. The 2009 salary cap was $123 million. The 2010 season was uncapped, but most teams treated it like a capped year and the ones that did not were severely punished by Roger Goodell. When the salary cap was reinstituted in 2011, it was set to $120 million. There it remained in 2012, and it would appear it shall remain there in 2013 as well. If you're an NFL team you may even be able to argue that 2010 contracts are incomparable to 2013 contracts on the basis of there being no cap in 2010. That argument might not go over well, but the fact remains that because the NFLPA essentially "borrowed" in order to keep the 2011 salary cap at $120 million (should've been $116 million, just going off revenues) and to keep the 2012 cap at $120.6 million (should've been $113 million)...it means the 2014 salary cap is not actually going to go up much. The NFL projects that 2014 and 2015 salary caps should only be around $121-122 million. This means that contracts signed from 2009 to 2012 should be perfectly comparable to contracts negotiated in 2013...no inflation adjustment.

Given all this there's actually a good chance that Greg Jennings' contract negotiations would come down to a price point that is similar to what Brian Hartline is currently asking. Brian Hartline wants 5 years, $33 million. That could actually be Greg Jennings' price point, except the deal would likely be shorter, around the same Boldin signed.

If you're asking me whether I would take Greg Jennings or Brian Hartline at the same price...the answer is easy to me. And I don't think the Ravens regret giving Boldin that 4 year, $25 million deal.

I've never seen Brian Hartline do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=osxixxurzvk#t=279s

Good post CK...Jennings is just a man. Extremely physical as WR....would love to have this guy on the team.

 

[TarHeelFinFan]

If management listened to this board we'd never re-sign anyone. We'd have the lowest payroll in the league and we'd be even worse than we are. Good drafting would do us no good because we'd be letting the good ones walk every time contract renewal came up.

 

[miamiron]

so how do you score tds when you don't get the ball thrown to you in the end zone?

Try breaking a tackle every 16 games

 

[maralieus]

I think Hartline should stay. The guy has great chemistry with Tannehill in short yardage and intermediate sideline throws, which is great when Tannehill is throwing on the run like we hopefully will see more of. When he gets going with Tannehill they relly play well together, if we had someone on the otherside he could get us consistent 10-20 yard gains against a #2 cb. You cant expect him to beat Revis (which he did a couple times) and other elite cb's with his lack of speed. What you can ask of him is to run short timing routes to perfection, then make the catch. With his route running and hands I think he is perfect for what we need and would be shocked if he gets away.

 

[tazthenomad]

If management listened to this board we'd never re-sign anyone. We'd have the lowest payroll in the league and we'd be even worse than we are. Good drafting would do us no good because we'd be letting the good ones walk every time contract renewal came up.

I'm with you. Hartline is a good #2. Is it possible to upgrade - ABSOLUTELY. Should we let him walk without having replacements in place? NO!!!

Some of the same people who are saying we shouldn't have him back are the same people who complained about getting rid of BM without a plan. Even if we have money there is no guarantee we can get any of the big 3 that everyone talks about. This isn't Home Depot where you can go the store and if you have enough money buy what you need. I would rather draft WRs and sign Hartline at $5M than pay 8 - 10 million for Jennings, Bowe, or Harvin for the many reasons that others have already listed on other threads. Wallace is the only one with enough speed to make a difference to pay that kind of money to, IMO.

 

[maralieus]

I'm with you. Hartline is a good #2. Is it possible to upgrade - ABSOLUTELY. Should we let him walk without having replacements in place? NO!!!

Some of the same people who are saying we shouldn't have him back are the same people who complained about getting rid of BM without a plan. Even if we have money there is no guarantee we can get any of the big 3 that everyone talks about. This isn't Home Depot where you can go the store and if you have enough money buy what you need. I would rather draft WRs and sign Hartline at $5M than pay 8 - 10 million for Jennings, Bowe, or Harvin for the many reasons that others have already listed on other threads. Wallace is the only one with enough speed to make a difference to pay that kind of money to, IMO.

Yeah the more I think about it the more I would rather have Mike Wallace. Hes younger and doesnt have injury issues. But we would still need to hit on one of draft picks, while holding onto Hartline. I like Bess, but he seems to disappear too much, and it seems like he has trouble getting down field. He makes people miss but it always seems to be for only like 4 YAC. I guess Wallac would really help that huh? Yeah, thats the best way, Wallace, and draft Swope or whoever else is ready to play fast. But man do we need a big fast athletic TE. Even with wallace we will still be lacking a RZ threat. Damn, I can't wait for the FA period to begin.

 

[NBP81]

Few thoughts one this one.
1) Alot of people seem to overstate what Hartline is asking for, 6 MIL+ might have been mentioned by his agent, but I seriously doubt they're confident in getting that amount.
2) Hartline was asked to do alot of things this year that arent exactly strong suits of his... Hartline should not be counted on as the only deep threat on a team, he doesnt have the speed or ability for those types of routes to be effective running them. But still he did better than I expected and you cant fault the guy for not running fast.
3) Hartline is a sideline specialist, often catching 3rd down key passes for 1st downs with precise route running and somewhat above average agility.
4) Good locker room guy, noty a diva by any means, loves football and I doubt he ever gets in trouble off the field.

Everyone seems to agree that Hartline is a good possesion receiver, great attitude football player with definite while limited skillset. The only concern alot of you express is contract related, and my response to you specifically is, dont worry.... Hartline will NOT get 6 MIL, forget about it...