Impression of CC from a CG supporter...... | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Impression of CC from a CG supporter......

you know whats interesting about when Cam was hewas the coach at Indiana,,,thats the only time i ever remember indiana was in the national spotlight,rande el was running all over the field getting some heisman talk,indiana was beating some good teams and hanging with the better teams in the big ten,,,anyone else remember that period?
 
Good Post...I wanted to add that the past record of a coach in no way reflects the future results in a new position from what I have seen. When Saban was hired we all felt good....Why?? Because he was a winner at LSU and had more wins than losses everywhere he had been. The result was two terrible years of football that still leaves a stinch that I hope disappears by the first game of 07. I think it is more important to get the right guy in the right position at the right time. I hope CC is all of that for the Fins...If he is not then maybe Wayne should ask that Old Lady(No Disrespect)that owns the Bears because she obviously knows what she is doing!

to take your point further...Belichick was 36-44 as a head coach for Cleveland, he quit after 1 day as the head coach of the Jets, and went 5-11 his first season with the Patsies.
Not exactly a prelude to what was to come.
 
Excellent post and thread, I was also in favor of Chan, but now feel the Fins made the right move and am ready to support Cam all the way. The combo of Cam, Dom and Mueller sounds awesome to me now. I just hope we keep Mueller.
 
Point one: Cameron's philosophy is give me weapons and I'll figure out how to best utilize them. That's a better foundation to start with. It means he casts a bigger net and therefore more of the player pool is available to him.
True, he may have a bigger player pool but I'm not convinced at all that this is a better approach. Saban was looking for players with certain physical attributes as well as players with a certain character. He would ask his scouts and Mueller to find a player that fit a certain mould. To me that indicates that he has a plan and is committed to following through on it. The other approach is somewhat loosy goosy: select talented players and bring them into the fold . By casting a bigger net, don't forget that it means he might be catching a lot of crap. I also don't buy that Saban wasn't willing to be flexible. You don't need to look any further than ZT's play this year. He is not your prototypical Saban player from a physical standpoint and yet he thrived in Saban's defense. Saban had a plan on how to achieve his goals. Nothing wrong with that. There are lots of players in the NFL who are playing for teams and are being used poorly. I would rather have a plan in place of what it is you are looking for before wasting time on players that don't fit your system. Your argument that CC makes the best of what he's got can also apply to Saban. Incidentally, I don't think that CC's philosophy is how you have described things. I think he will definitely be searching for certain types of players. The problem with Mueller and Saban is that they (apparently) werren't on the same page. It's not a criticism of either men. The relationship just didn't work and in order to have success in the NFL today, you need both men pulling in the same direction.


Point two. Parcells and Belichik both have basic models they use to byuild teams but have both provent they are flexible enough to win with what they get which leads to point three Saban should never be mentioned in the same breath as Parcells or Belichik
Saban, by his own fault, didn't have enough time in the NFL to reach that success as far as record is concerned. He did, however, lay a pretty good foundation for Cameron. Anyone who can't see what Saban accomplished in his two years here is either a blinded by anger or doesn't know football. Look at where the team was when he took over compared to now. It really isn't that difficult to see the differences.
 
You must be a Tide fan like my wife. I prefer Gain myself, It just smells better.:lol:
Not much of a college fan at all; I don't have a particular affinity to any team. Alabama means nothing to me. I could care less if they went 0-11 next year.
I also don't care for Saban's future. He's gone. Let bygones be bygones. All that I am saying is give credit where credit is due. He saved our franchise from becoming a perennial laughingstock of the league. Some people don't realise how bad things were when Wannstedt left. Remember what Jim Bates said when he left for G BAy. He said (paraphrasing) that our offense looked more promising than our defense. That our defense was in real trouble. This is coming form a guy who had been teaching our defense for years. Our offense was pretty pathetic that year. The fact that he said our offense looked better than our defense suggests to me that a man who knew our defense better than anyone was noting that our defense was in big trouble.
Saban drafted some good young defenders, brought in some excellent FAs, and put in a scheme that is worthy of as much praise as Bellichek's schemes.
Don't forget the salary cap situation from 2004. It was looking pretty ugly.

The bottom line is that I am not a fan of what Saban did. I was miffed and angered for a few days. But his actions won't cloud my judgements as to what he did accomplish, and more importantly, what he left us. Ask ZT what he thought of Saban as a coach. Ask JT. In fact, I'm sure if you asked all the DOlphins most players (with the exception of Manny wright of course) would say the guy was a great coach. He just never stuck around to reap the rewards of what he started. Hopefully, CC will be the beneficiary.
 
Saban, by his own fault, didn't have enough time in the NFL to reach that success as far as record is concerned. He did, however, lay a pretty good foundation for Cameron. Anyone who can't see what Saban accomplished in his two years here is either a blinded by anger or doesn't know football. Look at where the team was when he took over compared to now. It really isn't that difficult to see the differences.

I think Saban was clueless when it came to offense and quite frankly I dont see any foundation laid on that side of the ball. Defensively I have alot of respect for what he tried to build
 
True, he may have a bigger player pool but I'm not convinced at all that this is a better approach. Saban was looking for players with certain physical attributes as well as players with a certain character. He would ask his scouts and Mueller to find a player that fit a certain mould. To me that indicates that he has a plan and is committed to following through on it. The other approach is somewhat loosy goosy: select talented players and bring them into the fold . By casting a bigger net, don't forget that it means he might be catching a lot of crap. I also don't buy that Saban wasn't willing to be flexible. You don't need to look any further than ZT's play this year. He is not your prototypical Saban player from a physical standpoint and yet he thrived in Saban's defense. Saban had a plan on how to achieve his goals. Nothing wrong with that. There are lots of players in the NFL who are playing for teams and are being used poorly. I would rather have a plan in place of what it is you are looking for before wasting time on players that don't fit your system. Your argument that CC makes the best of what he's got can also apply to Saban. Incidentally, I don't think that CC's philosophy is how you have described things. I think he will definitely be searching for certain types of players. The problem with Mueller and Saban is that they (apparently) werren't on the same page. It's not a criticism of either men. The relationship just didn't work and in order to have success in the NFL today, you need both men pulling in the same direction.


I agree with much of this, but not all of it. While it is absolutely necessary to have a philosophy, there must be significant room for flexibility. In the modern NFL era, player selection/retention is as much about value as it is a "system". If you are signing and drafting players to fit a narrow system, you must be nearly mistake free in your selections, or you're going to wind up over paying for that privelege. Saban had a system in place that was very narrow, and the end result was a decent first draft, and a substandard 2nd. The players he really needed for his system simply weren't available to him at his selection, so he over-reached.

In addition to the value equation, is the actual system implementation. Saban's system might have led to greatness in Miami, but not until the entire team was stocked with players that matched his specific and narrow criteria. The problem is, the team was aging and we would have huge roster turnover, preventing him from ever creating the team his system needed. This narrow a system forced him to sometimes start players with less talent because they were more in line with his system than a better player who was forced to ride the bench...see the Bell situation. The same could be said with Culpepper starting...it fit his system and was worth the risk to him, but he waited too late to make the change to Harrington to salvage the season.

Saban wasn't completely inflexible, but his inability to make quick and significant adjustments to fit his talent coupled with his reaching in the draft and free agency were his undoing here. I believe Cameron will offer more flexibility in his approach to using players and modifying systems to strengths...helping us acheive maximum value in the draft and quicker changes on the field.



Saban, by his own fault, didn't have enough time in the NFL to reach that success as far as record is concerned. He did, however, lay a pretty good foundation for Cameron. Anyone who can't see what Saban accomplished in his two years here is either a blinded by anger or doesn't know football. Look at where the team was when he took over compared to now. It really isn't that difficult to see the differences.


You are correct that Saban is to blame for his lack of success based on his early departure, but the rest of your points are debatable. Let's analyze what Saban left us with, shall we?

On offense:

1. the QB position, we have a 2nd round pick that may never recover, a 5th or 6th round pick destined to stay a backup for the remainder of his career, and a project suitable for grooming to be a solid backup.

2. Saban has provided little to no upgrades on offensive line, a serious weakness to this team over the last several years.

3. At the receiver slot, Booker and Welker are our most dependable, with a very shakey number 1 guy in CC and a rookie draft pick that struggles to get separation without creating OPI penalties. Not horrible, but hardly "promising".

4. TE position is occupied by a freshly overpayed underacheiver with tons of ability...the question is whether or not it will be realized.

5. Lastly, at RB, we have Ronnie Brown, a player with good hands, decent blocking skills, and a tough and decent YPC average. Unfortunately, Brown is not as durable as you would hope out of a #1 back, and his vision and big play ability aren't as high as you would like. Still, a decent pick, but the value end of this equation isn't what it should be. There is also the possibility of the return of the drugged out Ricky Williams.

Overall grade: D

On Defense:

1. A new scheme, which is working amazingly well...but how much of it is Capers?

2. Saban left the secondary in decline from previous years, some of which is not his fault. Nevertheless, the big moves were Allen and Allan, one of which gets torched for the big play, the other was a huge reach in the draft and hasn't yet grasped the safety or corner position.

3. At LB, Crowder was a solid pick and Zach has excelled, but I don't know that the core is any stronger than it was before he arrived.

4. DL he did a decent job with some new talent, but it is still a concern due to overall age of the unit. The injury bug could strike all at once with a unit this age.

5. Age is a serious problem for this D, and will show itself in short order.

Overall Grade: B

The upshot is that Saban left this team in very average condition, and at least on the offensive side of the ball, in potentially worse condition than when he began. Saban did some good things, but rating him as more than average is completely unwarranted.
 
Great post Zonk.
I would'nt worry about his IU record. IU does'nt get top recruits. They get leftovers from Michigan, Ohio State, Purdue, Notre Dame and the rest of the big ten. It would be like being the last place team in the NFL and getting the last pick in the draft every year.

That's a good way to put it.
 
I live in Indiana and feel that I need to provide some insight to Cam's IU record. First and foremost, it would take God himself, to be successful at IU as football coach. If any of you have ever seen IU's facilities, you can attest, that they similar to what you would see at a local highschool. When you compete in the Big 10 against the likes of Ohio State and Michigan, you much have the amenities to offset your lack of "tradition". IU has been and always will be a basketball school. It is no accident that IU has not been to the Rose Bowl since 1966. Cam won more games than most people around here expected him to, because he had almost no talent, let alone any sort of depth. We saw how innovative his offense was and how he was able to put points on the board with a glorified WR running his offense as QB. Put the 18-37 record out of your mind. This guy is as talented as anyone calling plays in football. We finally have the right man at the right time!
 
Great post, thx.
I feel Cam might just do well, i have wanted the Head Coach to do the plays on offense for soo long. I feel there is a huge advantage when the Coach is on the field, than in the box... And for soo long we haven't had a Offensive Head Coach. We have the D, now we just have to shape up the O...
 
Anyone who simply looks at an 18-37 football record, at a basketball school, and bases their opinion on that, without examining the entire situation, is displaying a simplicity of thought that renders their opinions worthless to me

Did anybody do that? ONLY look at the W-L record? The W-L record absolutely DOES mean something, no matter what level, no matter what school. If Wisconsin can build a consistent winner in the Big Ten, so can Indiana......To those individuals that wanted to bury their heads in the sand and totally ignore W-L records, i would echo your sentiments above....

Peope that know a hellavu lot more and did a helluva lot more reseach than you or me HIRED Cam Cameron. I respect and accept their descision,and he's MY COACH now, and he has a CLEAN SLATE now, and the ONLY W-L record I give a S&*% about now starts in Sept 2007!
 
Not much of a college fan at all; I don't have a particular affinity to any team. Alabama means nothing to me. I could care less if they went 0-11 next year.
I also don't care for Saban's future. He's gone. Let bygones be bygones. All that I am saying is give credit where credit is due. He saved our franchise from becoming a perennial laughingstock of the league. Some people don't realise how bad things were when Wannstedt left. Remember what Jim Bates said when he left for G BAy. He said (paraphrasing) that our offense looked more promising than our defense. That our defense was in real trouble. This is coming form a guy who had been teaching our defense for years. Our offense was pretty pathetic that year. The fact that he said our offense looked better than our defense suggests to me that a man who knew our defense better than anyone was noting that our defense was in big trouble.
Saban drafted some good young defenders, brought in some excellent FAs, and put in a scheme that is worthy of as much praise as Bellichek's schemes.
Don't forget the salary cap situation from 2004. It was looking pretty ugly.

The bottom line is that I am not a fan of what Saban did. I was miffed and angered for a few days. But his actions won't cloud my judgements as to what he did accomplish, and more importantly, what he left us. Ask ZT what he thought of Saban as a coach. Ask JT. In fact, I'm sure if you asked all the DOlphins most players (with the exception of Manny wright of course) would say the guy was a great coach. He just never stuck around to reap the rewards of what he started. Hopefully, CC will be the beneficiary.

I'd much rather ask them what they think of capers.
 
Saban, by his own fault, didn't have enough time in the NFL to reach that success as far as record is concerned. He did, however, lay a pretty good foundation for Cameron. Anyone who can't see what Saban accomplished in his two years here is either a blinded by anger or doesn't know football. Look at where the team was when he took over compared to now. It really isn't that difficult to see the difference.

Really? What Foundation has Saban left? An aged Defense, no studs on offense, the offensive line still needs to be fixed and the secondary is horrendous.

Please tell me what foundation did Saban leave for cameron to come and be successful? Im lost! Is anyone else!
 
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