Is Ndamukong Suh really worth QB money?

[Sons Of Shula]

* Suh frees up other players to make plays. He sees a lot of double teams and occupies blockers. Ideally you have a LB corps that swarms to the ball pretty cleanly because of this. Unfortunately we need to upgrade this group as there are a LOT of missed tackles by them that hurt our run defense.

There's a lot of misconception about this and it has to do with our scheme. Regardless of Suh's ability, he doesn't occupy mutiple blockers or mutiple gaps; we relegate him to a single gap.

When he is double teamed, most likely the tackle or end next to him is also b/c that is the offenses POA in their zone run game where two deuce blocks are applied. In the passing game the double team is a legit application to his presence, but I feel like his talent is somewhat wasted to an extent b/c we don't use any 2 gap DLs.

That also effects the LB play in that they are not attacking the ball, they have a gap responsibility as well they must adhere to. We don't have free defenders like other schemes are able to take advantage of b/c of our single gap attack style.

 

[NorFlaFin]

Suh was wrecking people most of the season. I don't believe any of the DC's thus far have put him in a position to succeed. I see him playing off the nose a lot while the other DT is playing more 3 technique on the weak side. They also put him right next to Wake who is the only other elite player on the front 7. Take those two away like Pittsburgh did last week and our defense sinks.

When these two are lined up next to each other they can get get washed out by the blocking scheme. All they do is create a traffic jam that both of them get stuck in the middle of while the other DT and DE get single blocked.

All the more reason why we need an effective two gapper to play that 1 and 2 technique so Suh can go be an up-field 3 technique on the weak side away from Wake.

Randy Starks used to wreak havoc at that 3 technique spot when he played next to Soliai. Just like Atkins used to do playing next to Peko in Cincy. They both had big men to clog the other side.

Pot Roast

 

[TheWozz]

There's a lot of misconception about this and it has to do with our scheme. Regardless of Suh's ability, he doesn't occupy mutiple blockers or mutiple gaps; we relegate him to a single gap.

When he is double teamed, most likely the tackle or end next to him is also b/c that is the offenses POA in their zone run game where two deuce blocks are applied. In the passing game the double team is a legit application to his presence, but I feel like his talent is somewhat wasted to an extent b/c we don't use any 2 gap DLs.

That also effects the LB play in that they are not attacking the ball, they have a gap responsibility as well they must adhere to. We don't have free defenders like other schemes are able to take advantage of b/c of our single gap attack style.

Thanks for the insights Sons. I understand your point about the combo blocks against Suh and others at the POA. I do feel that Suh often blows up the scheme with quick penetration... although this would be more relevant to my point about him making plays than freeing up others to make plays.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

All the more reason why we need an effective two gapper to play that 1 and 2 technique so Suh can go be an up-field 3 technique on the weak side away from Wake.

In our current scheme is virtually impossible to separate the two (Wake & Suh).

First is b/c Wake is a LDE. That's his side, that's his niche, he's always played there and always will.

Second, because of our Over front the 3 tech will always be to the closed (tight end) side or strong side of the ball. For us, that default side is set to the left of the d-line. So if/when the offense aligns their strength to the right, we simply shift, not swap, Suh to 1 tech and Phillips/Mitchell to the 3 tech.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Suh was wrecking people most of the season. I don't believe any of the DC's thus far have put him in a position to succeed. I see him playing off the nose a lot while the other DT is playing more 3 technique on the weak side. They also put him right next to Wake who is the only other elite player on the front 7. Take those two away like Pittsburgh did last week and our defense sinks.

When these two are lined up next to each other they can get get washed out by the blocking scheme. All they do is create a traffic jam that both of them get stuck in the middle of while the other DT and DE get single blocked.

All the more reason why we need an effective two gapper to play that 1 and 2 technique so Suh can go be an up-field 3 technique on the weak side away from Wake.

Randy Starks used to wreak havoc at that 3 technique spot when he played next to Soliai. Just like Atkins used to do playing next to Peko in Cincy. They both had big men to clog the other side.

Good stuff. Suh is not quite as good as I thought he was. IMO, you never fully evaluate everything about a player's game until he's on your favorite team. I thought Suh was a borderline Hall of Fame player. He is a notch below that.

Phillips and Mitchell benefit from adjustment around here. It doesn't matter what mumbo jumbo technique they are playing, they simply aren't good enough, and Suh suffers somewhat as a result. Certainly in comparison to Randy Starks' situation several years ago, as you detailed.

Phillips still has time. I wish he had stopped growing taller when there was still time to avoid the disadvantages of 6-6 or thereabouts. I have to laugh at anybody who questions the disadvantages of that height at defensive tackle or nose guard. It's like the geniuses on golf forums who don't think it matters at all that Michelle Wie is 6-1, or 7 inches taller than ideal for a female golfer. She was guaranteed to underachieve compared to hype before she reached 13 years old. I posted that on a website in 2001 before ever seeing her play. Too many moving parts and therefore severely diminished margin for error at that height.

Bottom line it's more than amusing that our rush defense was slaughtered all season yet some of the players most responsible are frantically adjusted upward around here, while the improved offensive line is adjusted downward. You can tell it's the offseason. We're supposed to forget what we saw, what actually happened.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

Phillips and Mitchell benefit from adjustment around here. It doesn't matter what mumbo jumbo technique they are playing, they simply aren't good enough, and Suh suffers somewhat as a result. Certainly in comparison to Randy Starks' situation several years ago, as you detailed.

"mumbo jumbo"

Cute talk for . . .

Never mind, not worth the infraction.

Phillips still has time. I wish he had stopped growing taller when there was still time to avoid the disadvantages of 6-6 or thereabouts. I have to laugh at anybody who questions the disadvantages of that height at defensive tackle or nose guard. It's like the geniuses on golf forums who don't think it matters at all that Michelle Wie is 6-1, or 7 inches taller than ideal for a female golfer. She was guaranteed to underachieve compared to hype before she reached 13 years old. I posted that on a website in 2001 before ever seeing her play. Too many moving parts and therefore severely diminished margin for error at that height.

Differentiating b/w an inch or two in DTs, so let's drop a reference for half a foot plus.

BTW, "Hi"

---

Phillips has always struggled to play with the proper pad level but that goes for a number of defensive lineman (and football players in general) regardless of height. Defensive tackle is a very difficult position to adjust to in the NFL so there is still some time for him to blossom but no more than another year will suffice in that determination. He has also unfortunately struggled to play with consistency so when his flashes do appear they are diminished by his equally poor snaps.

The main issue with Phillips I see is mumbo jumbo. . . er I mean that we use him as a 1 tech or shaded nose who penetrates into the backfield which does not play into his strengths as he tends to get top heavy trying to rush into the gap. His strength is getting square and using his length and leverage immediately off the ball instead of allowing offensive lineman to get on his hips and block him out. Essentially a 2 gap scheme would be better use of his skills.

 

[The Tannehills Have Eyes]

Hindsight 20/20 but if I could go back I would have preferred to use the money elsewhere.

 

[phintim]

Suh is our DL. We lost Kacy Rodgers along with the DL we built so until we can reproduce that we keep Suh

 

[MARINO1384]

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/defensive-tackle/

Fletcher cox 17 million a year
Darius -16 million a year
Mccoy-15.8
Malik Jackson-14.2

Corey Luiget and Michael Brockers both make over 10 million a year and neither have ever made a pro bowl or even got a sack this year.

Muhammad Wilkerson and Oliver Vernon both make 17 million as well

None of those guys are even close to the player that Suh is with the exception of Mccoy but so far Suh has outshinned Mccoy by a smidge. People are still stuck in the past capping positions, 10 million is nothing anymore, salary cap is so high and with the ability to roll over cap we will continue to see crazy contracts.

As for the video i love how kirwan says Suh didnt get a sack in the steelers game... uh yeah he did bud, great job sounding like an idiot

http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400932687

 

[Atila]

Surprised so many people agree that he's not worth the money - which I've always agreed with. When the 2nd/3rd/4th best DT's are getting paid HALF as much, you know the contract is too much.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

Surprised so many people agree that he's not worth the money - which I've always agreed with. When the 2nd/3rd/4th best DT's are getting paid HALF as much, you know the contract is too much.

With DT's like Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox, and Kuwaan Short, a strong arguement can be made that Suh is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th best among that group. He's not a consensus #1.

 

[Phinatic8u]

With DT's like Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox, and Kuwaan Short, a strong arguement can be made that Suh is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th best among that group. He's not a consensus #1.

He was when he became a FA, then Aaron Donald blew up.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

He was when he became a FA, then Aaron Donald blew up.

Donald flew out the gate in 2014, when Suh was still with Detroit.

I see what you mean though in that Suh was considered the premium vet in FA.

Atkins has been in the conversation for a while, and Cox was not in the discussion until more recently.

 

[TheWozz]

With DT's like Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox, and Kuwaan Short, a strong arguement can be made that Suh is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th best among that group. He's not a consensus #1.

Yeah, but he's in the conversation, and most importantly he was the only one of those we had a shot at getting. When top guys go on the market, $$$ go up. Supply and demand...

 

[Eesti]

If you think he's overpaid now, what will you think in a few years? He only counted 6.1 and 12.6M against the cap in 2015 and 2016. In 2017 that number goes up to 19.1M and then to an astronomical 26M and 28M in 2018 and 2019 when he will be 31 and 32 years old. That's when it will really hurt.

We are stuck in the contract until the final year (2020) but it would still cost us 4M in dead space. The deal got even worse when they restructured it.

This is why they are wasting his talents by not putting more talent around him. By the time they fill out the roster, he will be in decline due to age. He plays way too many snaps to hold up for too long.

All the more important to put a better DT next to him. Instead they are content to wait for Phillips to develop.