james Walker: Dolphins OTA notes | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

james Walker: Dolphins OTA notes

LDaniel7 said:
The ONLY way WR is stacked is with possession WRs.

Wallace -- 4.3 legit. Only true playmaker WR on roster (jury out on Landry)
Hartline -- 4.6 (closer to a 4.6 in pads than a 4.5 and plays much weaker than one might think)
Landry -- 4.6+ in pads (more quickness than Hartline but even slower downfield)
Matthews -- 4.55 slowfoot. Better body control than Hartline, but cannot make plays downfield consistently.
Binns -- 4.55 and limited, but w. decent size. Has the potential to be a redzone threat -- and perhaps more potential as number 2 than Hartline. Still not a true threat downfield, though.
Gibson -- 4.6 w. decent quickness but zero threat downfield.

Slowest stable of WRs in the NFL, across the board. And limitations for each WR.

One true playmaker as of right now.

LD
p.s. and this in a league where 4.5 is considered marginal for a CB. Which means that most of the time Miami's WRs are lining up against defenders quicker and more talented than them.
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So are you just making up these numbers off the top of your head or what?? Brian Hartline ran a 4.52 at the combine and a 4.49 at his proday. He is deceptively fast and gets open deep quite easily. He is an underneath WR that catches most everything, and when he gets DBs cheating up he is very good at getting past them.

With Wallace's 4.2 speed combined with Hartline's 4.49 we are easily in the top half of the league in combined speed with our two starters. (not that that is such an important issue). And yes they are slower with pads on, but guess what, the numbers the DBs post are also without pads. Pads slow them down also.
 
Jerome Mathis 4.28, Jacoby Ford 4.28, Darius Heyward Bay 4.30, Yamon Figurs 4.30, Trindon Holliday 4.29, Marquis Goodwin 4.27. The book is still out on Goodwin. Holliday is not a good wr but a great return man. The other four garbage. Those are the 6 fastest 40 combine times ever for a WR. Speed means little compared to other aspect of the game.
 
Guys, that one post referenced speed and obviously there is more to the WR position than speed -- of course I know that. But great WRs without great speed eat up man coverage based on other skills (your Boldins, Irvins, and Rices, etc.).

Speed plus other skills speaks to upside though. And the non-ability of the D to dictate to the offense. There's a reason we had to break the bank to pay Wallace. Why? Because we UTTERLY LACKED team speed at skill positions.

And those of you touting Hartline as a "subtle speed guy" gimme a break. No WR at his size and non-pad 40 time should lose so much speed and disappear physically, w. horrid catch radius and poor red zone skills. He disappears against good man coverage. He gets set up for INTs more than is possible -- if he really were a threat.

Those times are rounding up on pad numbers, btw.

You guys are missing my point, thinking that I'm saying speed alone is what matters. No way. But the LACK of game speed at skill positions says volumes about the upside of that group of WRs. If we had an Irvin, where one on one coverage is an invitation to easy completion, or a Rice, where failing to focus on him means getting gashed -- I get you. But I've watched Hartline struggle against good man coverage since day one. Watched how he gets set up on INTs and cannot fight thru for the ball. Watched how he disappears the closer to the red zone it gets. Watched his poor body control and poor catch radius. Watched how he has to get open by going away from vertical routes -- horizontal or back to LOS all the time. Endless.

You guys puffing Hartline are the same ones that puffed Bess. And then were shocked when a fairly mediocre WR came in and played the positions much better than he, lol.

And yes, I told you about Bess before the truth was proved to you by Gibson.

And I'm telling the truth now. Which some of you will only be able to see in the rearview mirror. Never see it looking forward, cause you're blinded by other things.

LD
 
dobrasz54 said:
If you are talking about game speed then why bring up 40 times in the first place?
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They bear on the discussion, but they are not the whole picture.

They are very relevant! Agreed not the whole pic, but worth discussing in an honest fashion.

LD
 
If there are three skill sets for receivers ( 1) size/strength 2) hands/route running 3) speed/elusiveness ), most NFL receivers have at least one of those skills. Good receivers have two of the sets and if you get a Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson who are three tool receivers you're lucky. I think Brandon Marshall was a two tool receiver, but I think each of Miami's current corp are one tool receivers. In truth teams with fast receivers or big receivers are no more assured of success than any of the other teams. It's not like Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, AJ Green or Julio Jones are racking up championships. The key will be how does the offense take advantage of the skills that it's players possess.
 
LDaniel7 said:
They bear on the discussion, but they are not the whole picture.

They are very relevant! Agreed not the whole pic, but worth discussing in an honest fashion.

LD
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40 times literally mean nothing to football. Executives and players alike will tell you that. Again name me five times a player sprints 40 yards in a straight line during the game.
 
LDaniel7 said:
The ONLY way WR is stacked is with possession WRs.

Wallace -- 4.3 legit. Only true playmaker WR on roster (jury out on Landry)
Hartline -- 4.6 (closer to a 4.6 in pads than a 4.5 and plays much weaker than one might think)
Landry -- 4.6+ in pads (more quickness than Hartline but even slower downfield)
Matthews -- 4.55 slowfoot. Better body control than Hartline, but cannot make plays downfield consistently.
Binns -- 4.55 and limited, but w. decent size. Has the potential to be a redzone threat -- and perhaps more potential as number 2 than Hartline. Still not a true threat downfield, though.
Gibson -- 4.6 w. decent quickness but zero threat downfield.

Slowest stable of WRs in the NFL, across the board. And limitations for each WR.

One true playmaker as of right now.

LD
p.s. and this in a league where 4.5 is considered marginal for a CB. Which means that most of the time Miami's WRs are lining up against defenders quicker and more talented than them.
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Dude you put entirely way too much stock in 40 times...if mike Wallace wasn't fast he wouldn't be in the NFL....Hartline is a better receiver, runs better routes,has better hands, better body control...just all around better wide receiver. Yes, speed helps but its not everything...don't u remember ted Ginn??? He is fast and sucks I'll take guys who get open and catch than guys who just run fast. I'm really sick of hearing people use 40 times as a basis for a guy being good...its ridiculous..

And I'm not saying Wallace can't be good but I don't see how u say Wallace is the only playmaker at the position when it was clear as day Hartline made more plays. Don't u have to make plays to be a playmaker?

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

Oh and Gibson made more plays too before he got hurt...
 
Many of the greatest WR ever were not fleet of foot. Get separation, make the catch, make a guy miss, that's what greats do.
 
Mudder1310 said:
Many of the greatest WR ever were not fleet of foot. Get separation, make the catch, make a guy miss, that's what greats do.
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Its hard for some people to grasp...they think the only thing that makes someone good is a deep bomb pass...when the majority of passes thrown in a game are under 20 yards...I'm just tired of people acting like 40yd dash times make a guy better than ones with slower times. What good is running fast if you can't catch?
 
I guess you could use 40 times as a benchmark, like anything over 4.7 is un-manageable... but thats pretty much it...
 
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