That's an end-thread post right there. Pretty much bang on with no rebuttal possible. Well done sir.
Johnny Manziel Critics
- Thread starter WVDolphan
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That's an end-thread post right there. Pretty much bang on with no rebuttal possible. Well done sir.
hoops
Tua time!
my biggest issue with manziels game is i dont' think he reads coverage all that well...i see a lot of one read and take off stuff and a lot of just throw it up there to evans and tell him to go get it despite the coverage being played...you wont get away with that kind of stuff in the pros...
Pachyderm_Wave
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It's absolutely true. The majority of the players in the NFL are borderline professionals. That's why teams are always churning the bottom of their 53 man roster. They're always looking for upgrades. There's players starting all over the place in the NFL that wouldn't start on some college teams. For example, I'd guarantee you the Miami Dolphins haven't had a single player in their secondary the past 5 years that would've started at Alabama over Mark Barron, Robert Lester, Clinton-Dix, Dre Kirkpatrick, Dee Milliner, Kareem Jackson, and Javier Arenas.
---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------
He doesn't leave the pocket for no reason... I assure you there's a reason. Blaine Gabbert left the pocket for no reason... hew threw with his eyes closed from inside the pocket.
Keenum went undrafted and Manziel will be a 1st rounder because there's a clear difference in talent.
There's also a difference between production in C-USA, and production in the SEC. That difference in talent is why one was in C-USA and the other in the SEC to begin with. It's just not a good comparison.
^ ^ Dee Milliner was the consensus no. 1 CB in last years draft and outstanding college corner, how did that help him versus the Fins last year? Benched what was it, three times in the one game? He looked lost in the NFL last year.
The level between college and the NFL is massive - the reason there is churn there at the bottom of rosters is because they are choosing between one freakish athlete and another, and the reason why there are so many busts in the NFL. You can't just be a freakish athlete - you have to have something more that that, either an extra dimension of athletic freakishness or some other game-oriented talent.
The level between college and the NFL is massive - the reason there is churn there at the bottom of rosters is because they are choosing between one freakish athlete and another, and the reason why there are so many busts in the NFL. You can't just be a freakish athlete - you have to have something more that that, either an extra dimension of athletic freakishness or some other game-oriented talent.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
I'm not about to compare the man to Case Keenum. I think that's folly. But I don't think he's the NFL prospect Russell Wilson was, either. Perhaps I rated Russell Wilson too low as a prospect (solid mid to high 2nd round). The way Wilson has played he should have been a #1 overall. But I also feel like if another Russell Wilson came out I would probably rate him about the same as I did Russell Wilson himself. And if Johnny Manziel is not the prospect Wilson was then why should he get a higher grade?
Manziel WILL have to give himself up more in some situations...but I'm not sure it will help. First off with his style I'm not sure he'll do it. I'm not sure he's actually capable of it. I don't think he sees the field and sees timing-based reads from inside the pocket very well, and that's going to give him tendencies that put him out there as a raw steak for the lions on the defensive line.
Here's a video which really addresses that point about vision within the pocket for me:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...anziel-is-falling-down-nfl-teams-draft-boards
I do think Johnny leaves the pocket for no reason at times. Or rather he holds onto the football for an inordinate amount of time, which in turn forces him to leave the pocket under duress, for no good reason. Evaluating Mike Evans has been difficult at times because Evans seems to have a knack for getting open in his breaks with correct timing and you'd like to see him finish some of those catches and transition to RAC the way an NFL player will need to, but Manziel just doesn't see him or hit him. He waits and waits, gets his guys into scramble drills, climbs up or out of the pocket and searches for wide open windows into which to throw.
Again these are tendencies he'll have to break at the next level and maybe he just gets there and changes. Maybe it'll be easy. As Awsi said maybe the talent will just find a way.
But when you consider his significant off field issues and attitude problems, I don't think so. When the going gets tough (and it *will* get tough, at some point), I don't know that he's going to throw himself body and soul into the effort to move away from the player he was that got him the Heisman and all this acclaim in college. And he's going to have NO SHORTAGE of people whispering in his ear that it's his coaches, not him, that need to change. That he needs to get back to being "Johnny Football" and that his real problem, the REAL reason he's not succeeding in the NFL (even if just temporarily), is because he's not being "himself".
Then he'll go back to the old habits. And he'll get K.I.A.
Manziel WILL have to give himself up more in some situations...but I'm not sure it will help. First off with his style I'm not sure he'll do it. I'm not sure he's actually capable of it. I don't think he sees the field and sees timing-based reads from inside the pocket very well, and that's going to give him tendencies that put him out there as a raw steak for the lions on the defensive line.
Here's a video which really addresses that point about vision within the pocket for me:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...anziel-is-falling-down-nfl-teams-draft-boards
I do think Johnny leaves the pocket for no reason at times. Or rather he holds onto the football for an inordinate amount of time, which in turn forces him to leave the pocket under duress, for no good reason. Evaluating Mike Evans has been difficult at times because Evans seems to have a knack for getting open in his breaks with correct timing and you'd like to see him finish some of those catches and transition to RAC the way an NFL player will need to, but Manziel just doesn't see him or hit him. He waits and waits, gets his guys into scramble drills, climbs up or out of the pocket and searches for wide open windows into which to throw.
Again these are tendencies he'll have to break at the next level and maybe he just gets there and changes. Maybe it'll be easy. As Awsi said maybe the talent will just find a way.
But when you consider his significant off field issues and attitude problems, I don't think so. When the going gets tough (and it *will* get tough, at some point), I don't know that he's going to throw himself body and soul into the effort to move away from the player he was that got him the Heisman and all this acclaim in college. And he's going to have NO SHORTAGE of people whispering in his ear that it's his coaches, not him, that need to change. That he needs to get back to being "Johnny Football" and that his real problem, the REAL reason he's not succeeding in the NFL (even if just temporarily), is because he's not being "himself".
Then he'll go back to the old habits. And he'll get K.I.A.
Pachyderm_Wave
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The Dolphins have players that have been in the league for years that look lost. It's why they're a bad football team.
While Miami is busy choosing between which freak athlete to play at right tackle between Tyson Clabo's and Marc Colombo's... neither would've started at Alabama over D.J. Fluker.
Pachyderm_Wave
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These are the knocks that are legitimate. Again, he doesn't leave the pocket for no reason. There's a reason.
As I said a long time ago. it's because he can't see the Choice/Switch routes develope that make up Sumlin's 4-Verts concept, that are staples of any variation of Run-and-Shoot. That's a reason to leave the pocket.
Secondly, it's to make something happen because he missed the timing based reads from inside the pocket.
Bottom line is he's worth the risk for any team that needs a quarterback. It's a QB league, and if you're not taking risks at the QB position, you're not trying to win. I think anything inside the top 20 is reaching for Manziel, but after that he's worth the gamble.
DJ Fluker was drafted at no 11 overall playing as a college right tackle - if you can name 5 other college players drafted to be right tackles at the next level, who were drafted in the top 15 players overall in any draft in the last 15 years I will be very surprised. He was a home-run prospect and hence drafted as high as he was for his position. Comparing any RT to Fluker isn't that good because a RT drafted in the top 15 of the draft (even a weak one like last year) just doesn't come around that often.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
I'll buy that.
I think the Cowboys could take a bite at 16 if he does slide. But the consensus seems to be that he won't.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Just in the last draft Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel and Lane Johnson were all drafted to play right tackle immediately and whether they continued to play right tackle indefinitely was not going to depend on them but rather on the men that were currently playing left tackle (Brandon Albert, Eugene Monroe and Jason Peters, respectively).
If Albert had stayed healthy during 2013 and hadn't shown any signs of age then he'd still be there and Eric Fisher would still be a right tackle. If Eugene Monroe had showed any level of buy-in with the offensive scheme, he might still be in Jacksonville and Luke Joeckel may still be a right tackle. As it happened, Jason Peters DID stay healthy in 2013 and played well, bought into Chip Kelly's new scheme, and so he's been re-signed and now Lane Johnson is a right tackle indefinitely.
But since you asked, I believe Jon Tait was taken at 14 overall to play right tackle. Kenyatta Walker was also taken at 14 overall to play right tackle. Mike Williams was taken at 2 overall and he was most certainly intended to be a right tackle. Jordan Gross was taken at 8 overall and played right tackle from 2003 to 2007 before finally moving to left tackle in 2008. Shawn Andrews was taken at 16 overall and intended to play right tackle. Gosder Cherilus was taken at 17 overall and has been playing right tackle ever since. Jeff Otah same thing at 19 overall. Andre Smith was taken 6 overall and never intended to be anything other than a right tackle. Anthony Davis was taken at 11 overall and never intended to be anything but a right tackle. I believe George Foster and Stockar McDougle were taken both 20 overall and intended to play right tackle all along.
That's 12 guys taken in the top 20 to play right tackle for a significant amount of their career in the last 15 drafts...nearly 1 every draft. There have been 5 guys taken in just the top 11 for that deed.
I'm just not going to get into a debate whether these guys were drafted to be RT or not, becuase its just not a highly valued position in the NFL, it really isn't that far above guard in terms of value on draft boards; if you are saying, for example, that Eric Fisher was drafted where he was to be a RT that's just absurd. Fluker last year was drafted as a RT, if you can find any evidence he was drafted for LT I would like to see it. There are RTs drafted early but they are rare, just as guards being drafted early are - if they do go early its because they are home run prospects, and frankly, to get back to the thread, Johnny Football isn't. He'll get someone important fired from a front office in the next three years because he's been overvalued and drafted that way, and no one can claim that person hadn't been warned.
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hoops
Tua time!
if you're rick spielman and you are probably gonna get fired anyways next year if you don't find a qb and lose all those scrubs you got in the building now why not take the chance...of course the smart play would be to draft teddy bridgewater...a qb that does go thru his progressions and does recognize coverage and does stand in the pocket and play from it if your head is gonna be on a block
the only thing christian ponder mr one read and take off like a chicken with his head cut off is gonna do is get you fired...josh freemans lost all confidence from anyone...matt cassell ha ha...
if i read one more bortles is roethlisberger comparison i'm gonna lose it...what a bunch of crap...dude wont even stand in to make a throw against middle pressure...yet he's compared to the oak tree roethlisberger...
hungovers right though it's not good value to draft a right tackle in the high first round...most the guys that are worth the picks transition or the plan is to transition them over to the left side eventually...once the incumbent is jettisoned
the only thing christian ponder mr one read and take off like a chicken with his head cut off is gonna do is get you fired...josh freemans lost all confidence from anyone...matt cassell ha ha...
if i read one more bortles is roethlisberger comparison i'm gonna lose it...what a bunch of crap...dude wont even stand in to make a throw against middle pressure...yet he's compared to the oak tree roethlisberger...
hungovers right though it's not good value to draft a right tackle in the high first round...most the guys that are worth the picks transition or the plan is to transition them over to the left side eventually...once the incumbent is jettisoned
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Good because there isn't really any debate here. The 12 guys I listed (which you'll notice did not include Eric Fisher or Luke Joeckel) were drafted and played at right tackle. You're going to try and debate that Mike Williams, Andre Smith, Anthony Davis, Stockar McDougle, Jeff Otah, Gosder Cherilus or Shawn Andrews were taken to be left tackles? Good luck with that. You're going to need it.
If by "rare" you mean about one a year, then yes they are rare.
Pachyderm_Wave
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They're going to get fired anyway if they don't find a quarterback. That's the point. Pro Bowl left tackles, right tackles, guards, and whatever else can't save 'em.
Fin Thirteen
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I love the certainty with which everyone posts on these topics, like its a foregone conclusion one way or the other.
Manziel is abnormally talented and has a winning competitive mentality, which is an intoxicating mix. He has size issues, some mechanical wrinkles and limited experience, particularly operating in a pocket.
Whether he turns out to be boom, bust or Mr. mediocre is largely going to be a product if where he lands after the draft.
I said two seasons ago that Wikson would thrive in a team where the coach had the balls to build the offense around him and his strengths, while masking his few flaws. Carroll didn't hesitate, put Wilson in as starter as a rookie and never looked back.
Manziel maybe has a different set of needs in terms of the coaches, teammates and division which will get the best out of his prodigious talent. But he wont be equally successful wherever he goes.
There's no way at this point of predicting just how good he'll be. I can tell you one thing, he wont thrive in a WCO like he might in other systems.
Manziel is abnormally talented and has a winning competitive mentality, which is an intoxicating mix. He has size issues, some mechanical wrinkles and limited experience, particularly operating in a pocket.
Whether he turns out to be boom, bust or Mr. mediocre is largely going to be a product if where he lands after the draft.
I said two seasons ago that Wikson would thrive in a team where the coach had the balls to build the offense around him and his strengths, while masking his few flaws. Carroll didn't hesitate, put Wilson in as starter as a rookie and never looked back.
Manziel maybe has a different set of needs in terms of the coaches, teammates and division which will get the best out of his prodigious talent. But he wont be equally successful wherever he goes.
There's no way at this point of predicting just how good he'll be. I can tell you one thing, he wont thrive in a WCO like he might in other systems.