Just want to share this w/ the FINheaven by SirFin

[Jimmy James]

I'm not sure if it would have been easy..
If Minnesota was locked onto Udeze, they KNEW that we weren't going to take him. They made a RS give his word that he wouldn't trade the pick if they gave it to us. They could still get the guy they want, with no worries.

Now, purely speculative here but, perhaps Dallas, either was not willing to give up a higher pick than the one we gave, or they wouldn't guarantee what they were going to do with the pick. Leaving Minnesota with too many question marks to feel comfortable about getting their guy.

It's all a matter of perspective I guess, you think we "blinked first', I think we aggressively went after the guy we wanted, assuring 100%, that he would be ours.

The biggest question mark with a Dallas trade is that Minnesota likely wouldn't have gotten Udeze because either Miami or New England would have traded with a team interested in him. That just wasn't an acceptable risk based on what I have heard out of Minnesota.

I'm not disputing that we aggressively went after the guy RS wanted -- I frankly question the strategy at play there. That isn't going to be a draft strategy that I like, particularly when the evidence suggests that it's not a value play. When I say we blinked, I mean that we exposed our single-mindedness in a situation where I feel we should have remained calm, cool, and collected.

 

[inFINSible]

The biggest question mark with a Dallas trade is that Minnesota likely wouldn't have gotten Udeze because either Miami or New England would have traded with a team interested in him. That just wasn't an acceptable risk based on what I have heard out of Minnesota.

I'm not disputing that we aggressively went after the guy RS wanted -- I frankly question the strategy at play there. That isn't going to be a draft strategy that I like, particularly when the evidence suggests that it's not a value play. When I say we blinked, I mean that we exposed our single-mindedness in a situation where I feel we should have remained calm, cool, and collected.

Okay, I get what you mean, you think that Minny wasn't going anywhere.

Fair enough, you may have been right. But if we had not budged and New England jumped in front of us and took Carey.....and then after the fact, it was found out that we could have made the trade if we had been more aggressive....I think the fallout and disenchanment with the whole front office would be 10 times worse. Not that that should have had any influence on the decision but it's aggressively persuing the big time talent that has been a sore spot for Wanny's whole regime so far.

To be aggressive or not to be aggressive, that is the question. Personally, I'm glad to see it.

 

[Jimmy James]

I can respect that viewpoint, though I won't adopt it as my own. For me, it comes down to deeply held convictions about what the draft is for that inform the stategies I would advocate. If you don't share those convictions, then things change.

 

[inFINSible]

If you don't share those convictions, then things change.

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean by this.. :o

 

[Jimmy James]

I mean that I strongly feel that the draft is exclusively for the future and that value must therefore be the sole consideration when making selections. That obviously is not how RS approached the 1st round pick based on the trade, and I think the evidence makes it very likely that value was not what drove the selection of VC at 19 after the trade was made.

If you believe in drafting for need or even in a hybrid strategy where players at need positions get bonus points or preference when the value is close, you're going to come to a different conclusion. I can respect that. It's just not my philosophy.

 

[inFINSible]

I mean that I strongly feel that the draft is exclusively for the future and that value must therefore be the sole consideration when making selections. That obviously is not how RS approached the 1st round pick based on the trade, and I think the evidence makes it very likely that value was not what drove the selection of VC at 19 after the trade was made.

If you believe in drafting for need or even in a hybrid strategy where players at need positions get bonus points or preference when the value is close, you're going to come to a different conclusion. I can respect that. It's just not my philosophy.

Thanks. And yes, I believe that a hybrid strategy is best but, only with first day picks(maybe even only first round picks depending on the talent pool), after that, it should be BPA.

One more question...I think .....if Dallas, NE, and Miami were all interested in Carey right around the 19th pick, then wouldn't his value be the 19th pick?

 

[Jimmy James]

I don't think that's an appropriate indicator of value, largely because we don't know how legitimate and serious that interest was. It is conceivable that Dallas wanted somebody else, and I think it is very conceivable that New England was willing to abandon value a little bit just to get ahead of us for psychological reasons because they had such a wealth of picks in this draft.

I also trust the "experts" like Kiper more than I do GMs when it comes to pure value. While Kiper doesn't have the skill of a GM, he also doesn't have the job pressures that make need drafting so attractive.

 

[Boomer]

The part about draft day and off-season moves is garbage.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

I don't think that's an appropriate indicator of value, largely because we don't know how legitimate and serious that interest was. It is conceivable that Dallas wanted somebody else, and I think it is very conceivable that New England was willing to abandon value a little bit just to get ahead of us for psychological reasons because they had such a wealth of picks in this draft.

I also trust the "experts" like Kiper more than I do GMs when it comes to pure value. While Kiper doesn't have the skill of a GM, he also doesn't have the job pressures that make need drafting so attractive.

You trust Kiper? He is an entertainer first, draft expert second. That is like trusting the stars of Celebrety Justice over a real lawyer.

 

[inFINSible]

I don't think that's an appropriate indicator of value, largely because we don't know how legitimate and serious that interest was. It is conceivable that Dallas wanted somebody else, and I think it is very conceivable that New England was willing to abandon value a little bit just to get ahead of us for psychological reasons because they had such a wealth of picks in this draft.

I also trust the "experts" like Kiper more than I do GMs when it comes to pure value. While Kiper doesn't have the skill of a GM, he also doesn't have the job pressures that make need drafting so attractive.

Cool, I understand completely where you're coming from now....thanks for being patient with me.. :D

 

[Boomer]

Mel gets out there and he watches the prospects and he studies the films. His opinions differ from others, but then the Giants opinion differs from the Bears and it differs from the Chiefs. It would be a dull old world without the Mel Kipers'.

 

[BigFinFan]

I had NO IDEA that inFINSible is/was well respected. Personally I just wish he would change that avatar - seeing WH with horns really freaks me out!

In the original post, it is mentioned that

"we let a steal like PK Sam go to our arch-enemy. NOT GOOD."

Using that same philosphy, why was it a "mistake" to trade our 4th to move up one spot to take VC? Would it have been better for us to sit tight at 20, keep our fingers crossed and our 4th and have the Patriots ("arch-enemy") move ahead of us and draft VC?

Although Smiley and Grove might end up being superstars, neither one would have addresed our needs at the OT position. RS made a move to get the OT that our team desperately needed. Was it worth the 4th pick - Minnesota used the pick to draft Mewelde Moore?

It is really too soon to tell.

 

[Jimmy James]

You trust Kiper? He is an entertainer first, draft expert second. That is like trusting the stars of Celebrety Justice over a real lawyer.

I mentioned Kiper because he's the best known person of his ilk. There are tons of other people who do the same thing, and the vast majority of them had Carey lower than 19. That establishes Carey's value as lower than 19 sufficiently for me.

 

[Jimmy James]

Cool, I understand completely where you're coming from now....thanks for being patient with me.. :D

You're quite welcome, and I thank you for being patient with me as well. We would all do well to keep our exchanges as patient and understanding as this one. I'll be the first to admit that I don't meet that standard at times, but I wish I did.

 

[Boomer]

Carey's value WAS lower than 19, but 4 things happened to precipitate us picking him earlier.

1 - Mike Williams wasn't allowed in the draft - this meant that receivers went earlier than slated.

2 - Mike Clayton went to Tampa.

3 - Philly traded up for Andrews.

4 - Pats were trading up fpr Carey. He filled a need. We picked for need. I'm happy with that.