Let's Talk Potential QBs in Rd 1 | Page 7 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Let's Talk Potential QBs in Rd 1

pmj said:
I'm a canes fan but to me, Kayaa is very similar to Tannehill. I don't think Tannehill is as bad as some others so don't take that as a huge negative, but I don't see his pro results being much better from what we've seen so far. My opinion:

Better touch, but worse arm strength.
Better pocket presence, as in climbing the pocket, but rarely see him escape sure sacks and make plays off of escaping, even picking up first downs with his feet.
Everything you want to hear from a QB, but no visible fire and leadership some crave.
No real signature wins and putting his team on his back with comebacks.
No gaudy stats or dominance at the college level.
Seems to go as his team goes, if the running game and D is locked in he's usually good. Game manager level seems very achievable.

I feel like his first round projection seems purely based on measurables, we will see what happens this year and in the combine. He could very well mature into something more, he still seems to have a small frame and seems very young compared to others.

If we draft a QB, I'd personally prefer someone rounds 2+ that is the opposite of these things, even if the don't check all the boxes per se and maybe we end up with someone like Dak, RW, etc.
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This is pretty spot on about Kaaya. Had I not gone through Henne and Tannehill I'd probably be a lot higher on him. But I'm not going to trust another qb to learn how to deal with pressure, if the insincts aren't there than pass.

j-off-her-doll said:
I don't see Watson as a project, and people said similar things about Winston. Like Winston, Watson wants to push the ball down the field, and he gives his receivers opportunities to make plays. To this point, they have mostly failed to hold up their side of the deal. I am concerned about dildo sleezebag running him into the ground, but as long as he enters the draft healthy, he's my #1 pick.
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It's probably not a huge deal but I wonder if the way Scumbag coach runs Watson at the front 7 over and over, will be hard to coach out of him.

Watson doesn't have the athletism or size to do that kind of stuff in the NFL. I hope it doesn't become something he can't get away from.

I love Watson but I do think he could still fall behind Kizer because of his size. I also think Kizer playing really good ball right now.
 
I think Kizer and Watson are top 2, though Mitch Trubisky is intriguing... I would like to see more of Davis Webb. I need a QB with good pocket presence, it has become a must.
 
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crossfit93 said:
I think Kizer and Watson are top 2, though Mitch Trubisky are intriguing... I would like to see more of Davis Webb. I need a QB with good pocket presence, it has become a must.
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Trubisky having a Breakout season for sure, didn't realize he was eligible.
 
Watson hasn't regressed, his receivers have killed him through the first quarter of the season. I think they had 16 drops heading into the game with Louisville...which was more than they had last season. Nevermind all the fumbles and drops they had last night against Louisville, some of which took points directly off the board because of where they happened.

Now, Watson is missing some throws down field that he hit more frequently last year. But he's been playing without his best receiver Hunter Renfrow since Troy.

Mike Williams may be Clemson's best WR in terms of physical talent or projection to the NFL, but Hunter Renfrow is their best receiver in terms of what he means to Watson. Go back and watch the national championship game last year against Alabama if you doubt how much Renfrow really means to Watson and Clemson's offense.
 
Gonzo said:
Round 1 is the only round worth drafting a QB in. You'll name some exceptions, but that's all they are.
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I find it hard to believe how many times people use this logic. Russell Wilson is a star QB from 3rd round- let's wait till 3rd round to draft a QB!
 
Davis Webb is the guy to keep an eye on, unless he rises too high. Kliff Kingsbury and Adam Gase have a relationship (hence Kingsbury attending Dolphins training camp this year), and Webb handled his benching by Kingsbury like a champ. He earned the nickname "Coach Webb" in the locker room because of how much he helped everyone. He left Texas Tech as a graduate transfer, which is meaningful.

I don't know that the Dolphins are going to come out in 2017 and assassinate Ryan Tannehill. I think they will decide they want to push him, and they will also want to pick a quarterback that does things specifically Gase is looking for his quarterbacks to do. People think of the position kind of one-dimensionally in terms of talent level and ranking. I don't think Gase is going to view it that way. He's going to look at what the QBs are good at individually and how that fits into his approach, pick the guy that shows the traits he likes best.

That may be Davis Webb, although I doubt Gase will overly reward Webb's arm strength. That may be Cooper Rush, since he runs essentially a fully pro offense at Central Michigan under the Dolphins' old special teams coach Jon Bonamego. It won't be Deshaun Watson unless Miami are picking high enough and they decide they do indeed want to assassinate Tannehill instead of just pushing him. It probably won't be DeShone Kizer for those reasons as well as the fact Gase is unlikely to reward athleticism in the evaluation. Maybe it's Chad Kelly.

Maybe it's a guy that compares a bit with Jimmy Garoppolo...in Toledo's Logan Woodside.
 
ckparrothead said:
Davis Webb is the guy to keep an eye on, unless he rises too high. Kliff Kingsbury and Adam Gase have a relationship (hence Kingsbury attending Dolphins training camp this year), and Webb handled his benching by Kingsbury like a champ. He earned the nickname "Coach Webb" in the locker room because of how much he helped everyone. He left Texas Tech as a graduate transfer, which is meaningful.

I don't know that the Dolphins are going to come out in 2017 and assassinate Ryan Tannehill. I think they will decide they want to push him, and they will also want to pick a quarterback that does things specifically Gase is looking for his quarterbacks to do. People think of the position kind of one-dimensionally in terms of talent level and ranking. I don't think Gase is going to view it that way. He's going to look at what the QBs are good at individually and how that fits into his approach, pick the guy that shows the traits he likes best.

That may be Davis Webb, although I doubt Gase will overly reward Webb's arm strength. That may be Cooper Rush, since he runs essentially a fully pro offense at Central Michigan under the Dolphins' old special teams coach Jon Bonamego. It won't be Deshaun Watson unless Miami are picking high enough and they decide they do indeed want to assassinate Tannehill instead of just pushing him. It probably won't be DeShone Kizer for those reasons as well as the fact Gase is unlikely to reward athleticism in the evaluation. Maybe it's Chad Kelly.

Maybe it's a guy that compares a bit with Jimmy Garoppolo...in Toledo's Logan Woodside.
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Do you think Brad Kaaya is what Gase wants? And it sounds like you think Gase wants arm strength and smarts? I can agree that Gase doesn't look for athleticism as Peyton nor Jay Cutler were very athletic and those are the QBs he is used to working with
 
That's an interesting point. Although I wonder exactly what it is that Gase would look for specifically. Logan Woodside doesn't have the arm Garoppolo has, and he's really small out on the field. I don't feel like he's draftable.

I really haven't discussed Ryan Tannehill at all around here in years. There was really no point after I wrote my Final Word piece on Tannehill leading up to the draft that year. He would never have been my quarterback, and he still has the same fatal flaws that I saw at Texas A&M. He'll always have 'em.

Tannehill has two fatal flaws that can be broken down separately into detail. The first is he just doesn't have a feel for the game, and you can't coach that. Doesn't matter if it's Adam Gase, or Mike Sherman, or Joe Philbin, or Vince Lombardi. He always looks so completely unprepared to deal with pressure. He's never been able to account for the extra man when pressured. If the defense is bringing one more guy than the offensive line can block, the quarterback is responsible for that extra guy. That's his guy. Tannehill has never been able to account for it, and he just gets blasted over and over again because of it. Then there's the aspect of how bad his offensive line has been. As many times as he's seen his offensive lineman whiff on a block right in front him, he's still never prepared to react to the pressure. Every other successful quarterback in the NFL is able to do this, but not Ryan Tannehill. He's just never prepared to deal with pressure. He's the most sacked QB in the league for a reason, and it ain't all because of his offensive line. You at least have to be prepared to deal with pressure. Tannehill often looks like he's surprised the other team actually tried to sack him.

The other part of his lack of feel for the game is his lack of ability to improvise. A lot of people refer to him as a "robot", and I don't think they even realize how true that really is. Tannehill is only able to be successful when a play works exactly as it's drawn up. If the play breaks down and it's time for the quarterback to improvise and make a play, he's done. Forget about it. He has to "Color-by-Numbers", so to speak. Blue goes here. Red goes here. Yellow goes here. If it doesn't work like that, his effectiveness as a quarterback drops drastically.

All of the best quarterbacks that have ever played this game, all had the ability to improvise and let their instincts as a playmaker take over....and they all had their own trademark ways of doing it. It's little things we're talking about here, not big things. They own it. Remember when you used to watch Brett Favre execute the fake jump pass after handing it off on a simple dive play to Dorsey Levens? He was always making defenses think. Watch Chad Kelly for Ole Miss when he scrambles. He isn't just scrambling to run, he's thinking of ways to distract and fool defenders as he's running. He always uses a pump fake when a defender is closing in on him to get the defender to jump and leave his feet, then Kelly will scamper right around him. Tannehill just immediately tucks the ball in his breadbasket and takes off in a straight line if he runs at all.

What I'm getting at here is this.... at some point, you have to just play the game. You have play football. It doesn't always work exactly as it's drawn up on the board. Come up with your own ways of trying to gain just a little edge. Make it yours and own it. It's little things. Details.

Ryan Tannehill has a spectacular arm and can throw the football with anybody in the league as far as just throwing it. His arm talent compensates for many of his flaws, and that's how he's able to be as average as he's been. But he's not a detailed quarterback at all. He plays the game so simplistic and lacks any feel for the game. Watch Davis Webb when teams try to blitz him. His feel for the game is fabulous. These are things you don't coach. You either have 'em or you don't. Tannehill doesn't have it. He just never did.
 
Gase will be drawn to pocket quarterbacks with excellent decision making skills and especially good pocket presence. That's his type, if he has one. Arm strength is probably a plus with him but where some people will see the arm strength first and go from there, I don't think that's where Gase starts. What I am pretty sure Gase will not do is start off with a prospect graded well because he has a athleticism/arm wow factor, and then drill down on the particulars after that. He's not going to start off with any assumptions about DeShone Kizer for example.

The only quarterback we have seen Adam Gase actually "pick" is Brandon Doughty and I think that is instructive. It is also instructive to listen to what Mike Martz seeks in a quarterback because Martz is a very heavy influence on Gase, as is Josh McDaniels. And obviously, so is Peyton Manning. But Martz has made it clear through the years what he prizes in terms of a quarterback with accuracy who is able to process the field (i.e. Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger, etc).

This is why I said I don't think Gase will necessarily bump up Davis Webb's score because of his unreal arm talent. It'll be in the score for sure, it has to be especially because of what it does to Webb's decision making, but Gase wouldn't rate Webb high because of the arm. He'd be more the type to grade him from the floor up, probably with a special emphasis on pocket feel and movement.
 
It's going to come down to what Adam Gase ultimately feels about Ryan Tannehill. How high is his ceiling and is that good enough to win with? Factor in Brandon Doughty as well.

Slimm makes good points about Tannehill's lack of feel for the game. For an athletic quarterback, the number of sacks Tannehill has taken is frustrating. I feel like his pocket presence has improved a bit over time, but he still doesn't get out and make plays very often when pressured. Doughty, in some ways, may be the opposite of Tannehill. He makes plays on instincts, but doesn't have top-notch athletic skills. Is he good enough and will we know that heading into the offseason?

I haven't looked at the quarterback class in much detail so I don't have a lot to add there. But, I think Miami will end up looking in another direction with their top picks unless the Dolphins end up with #1 overall. Then, I would think, Watson has to be considered.
 
Do either of you feel like we should play Doughty to see how he plays? Or was he a 7th rounder for a reason and we need to groom him to be a career backup?
 
nick1 said:
Do either of you feel like we should play Doughty to see how he plays? Or was he a 7th rounder for a reason and we need to groom him to be a career backup?
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I don't see much there with Doughty myself. I just don't think he has the physical tools to warrant much of a look, and he's never been comfortable throwing with bodies around him.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
I don't see much there with Doughty myself. I just don't think he has the physical tools to warrant much of a look, and he's never been comfortable throwing with bodies around him.
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I think he's the perfect practice squad qb.

Good enough to run your system, but not good enough where anyone will poach him.
 
Doughty has a chance. The biggest hurdle is learning the new style of offense and processing all of the different points of information he has to at the NFL level. Just how smart is the guy? That's the thing to find out. He certainly knew his college offense backwards and forwards.

He's never looked particularly comfortable throwing with bodies around him but he HAS been particularly effective doing so because he has a tendency to find the open guy and get it there. He had pretty much the highest efficiency of any of the QBs in the draft class when under pressure. He had a tendency though to see the rush, know where it was coming from, and get the ball to his hot. Which is what Gase wants, and what drew him to Doughty.

Arm strength is an issue particularly as it pertains to the ability to get the football to different options with bodies flying around him. That's legit. I don't see arm strength as an issue otherwise, though.

IMO it's really all going to come down to his digesting of the offense and management of the information overload. The accuracy is at an uncanny level and his natural ability to spot open players is good. He's got to transfer the way he handled pressure at a college level to a pro level where it's so much faster and he's that much more physically overmatched from an athletic standpoint, and so he has to be that much more on top of his mental game. But I don't see him any more or less overmatched than a Jimmy Garoppolo that way, for example.

I think it tends to be all or nothing with a Brandon Doughty. He's either going to digest the offense and the information the way he should and then he's the player he was in college, or he's not an NFL player. And I recognize the odds are much more on the latter than the former.
 
CK and Slimm are the most detail oriented posters on players in here, I value and trust both their comments. Thank you for both your thoughts and insights!

I'm actually hoping for the Phins to draft Chad Kelly. Now I wanna watch how Davis Webb performs.
 
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