linehan's system/qb breakdown | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

linehan's system/qb breakdown

What a fantastic post.

Very well thought out.

You've explained clearly what many of us feel is the best move for the team: starting Feeley.

Good job coordinator.
 
Very good post, summing up what i could not for months of trying to explain why it's fruitless to depend on a guy like Gus... And why AJ has a better arm, is slightly more mobile, and deserves it after toughing his way through 2004.

Anyhow, if the starters are going to get the usual three quarters this week, I do hope and pray AJ gets the nod, at least for the third quarter...

My argument in June was that the boy suffered from losing reps to Fiedler last summer and that i prayed it didn't happen again this summer... And it has...

If Gus knew the system so well, why not annoint AJ the starter and let him learn? Then, if AJ utterly failed this summer after a full month of first-team reps, THEN fall back on Gus. They knew what they had with Gus. How can they know what they have with AJ when he's losing so much work to Gus?
 
because saban did not draft a franchise quarterback in his first nfl draft with the dolphins, starting frerotte this season would be counter productive to miami's long term goals.
Click to expand...

the gusketeers should read this great post and this line.
 
Very good post, one that shows what a lot of people are saying, if Gus knows this system that well, he should have out distanced AJ so far that it's quit obvious who should start. The fact that AJ is this close, if not even, at this point of his learning this O should tell football ppl that AJ clearly shows the most upside. I remember the Daute early days in this O, and you're right, they weren't pretty. I would love to see AJ in one O for 2 years starting here in Miami. Why ppl on this board expect a QB to play lights out the very first year they're in a system..I still don't understand that type of thinking. Usually it's the 2nd year that things start clicking..that's true of Farve, Elway, Kelly, Marino, and all the greats. After 4 years Bradshaw was still having problems, Brees just turned it on last year after 3 years, and Manning went 3-13 in his first year. Why do ppl on this board expect a QB to light it up in year one? That's why I say start AJ and let him grow with the rest of the team.
 
nice, well thought-out post.

the one point you make that many people don't realize or at least are willing to consider, is that we are NOT going to win the superbowl this season. And as I have put in previous threads on this subject, because of the strength of the East we are not likely to go to the playoffs either (I've predicted an 8-8 season based on my belief that actually having a running game this season will win us 4 more games than last year with our defense still pulling the team thru the majority of the time). I believe it'll take at minimum 10 wins to get into the playoffs from the East, and even then it'll come down to division record because in addition to NE, Buff and the Jets have the ablity to win 10+ games this year (I hate to admit it but it is possible)

While I don't want to get into another long discussion on these 2 guys, I'll just throw this out (because no matter what I say, Saban will do what he wants)...

....if Saban and Linehan choose Gus then they are opting for the player who could very likely win an additional 2+ games for us. IMO this is because fo Gus's knowledge of the system will be benifitial early in the season when teams don't know exactly how our offense is going to work. Kind of a suprise factor....however, when we go around the division the 2nd time the opposing teams will be familiar with us (from not only having played us once but also having more video from other games). Because of that.....a guy with a touch more "talent" could possibly help win the game..that player being Feeley.

Of course, playing Feeley later in the season to get that extra little "talent" boost is voided because he hasn't been taking ALL the reps since the season began...Then again...if we do start Feeley from the go then it's very possible that we lose a couple of games based solely on the fact that Feeley doesn't know as much.

It's a double edged sword.....something many many people on this board understand.

Although this is saying a lot of what thecoordinator was getting across, just a bit differently, the one thing that I truly believe...there is simply not that much difference (other than what I wrote just above) between Feeley and Frerotte.

If Saban chooses Gus...he'll be making the same choice that Wanny made last season...in starting the older player who simply doesn't have the ablity to win the whole thing he's sacrificing player developement for a couple extra wins!

It's that simple....It's that true. I don't feel that we have a QB on this team that can go deep into the playoffs, let alone take the team to the SB. I'll say this again...IF Saban starts Gus it is NO different than Wanny starting Fielder last year. They are trying to win a couple extra games this year....but just like last season with Wanny, it's short-sighted. Wanny was fighting to keep his job...Saban isn't...he's got the time to tinker with this team....and he should take advantage of that!
 
another thing people seem to be forgetting: ... which ever one starts almost certainly won't make it too deep into the season...

If they protect like they did at pittsburgh last week, we'd better keep 4 healthy bodies...
 
After reading that post, my views on our quarterback situation have changed. I was already leaning towards AJ to start, but after reading that, I completely agree with you. I can't comment because it's already been mentioned in your post =\ So kudos to you man, great post.

EDIT: Oh and I've had hope for AJ ever since I watched that infamous Monday Night game against New England. The way he played very wellagainst that crazy defensive scheme Bellicheck composed (it was like 1-8, agaisnt the usual 3-4) and performed like a pro in that last drive, resulting in a lob high pass to Darrius Thompson, completeing it for the game winning touchdown. Since then I've been an even bigger AJ supporter. As a side note, I nearly had a heart attack when that play happened...and then that pick by Sammy Knight (may have been Will Poole) in the end, assisted by Jason Taylor about to sack Tom Brady, nearly had another heart attack.
 
Great Post! It's e-z to see why Spielman gave up a #2 for Feeley! The 'Fins really wanted Detmer (Eagles 2nd string QB but the asking price #1 & 5 was too much) Even Cowher was quoted after this last game that he contacted the 'Fins about a straight up trade Rothlisberger for Feeley. Obviously the Steeler media was astounded but Cowher's reply was: "Ben really struggled and AJ went 16 for 20." :lol:
 
If both are equal it indicates that Gus is struggling at the position. By all accounts, AJ locks onto receivers, has poor pocket presence and can't throw downfield with touch. Gus should be blowing this guy out of the water by now. Gus has kept AJ in the game so far, although he is starting to pull away lately. Saban shouldn't be afraid to look at Sage this season if they continue to struggle.
 
"With each day as aj feeley gets more reps, the gap between them, if there is any at all, continues to move in aj's favor".
  • I have yet to read anything substancial that backs this position. In fact more published information gives Frerotte the clean advantage including the intangibles.
"The most intriuging thing so far in camp is the fact that gus was brought in because of his familiarity with offensive coordinator scott linehan's system, yet at this point has still not seperated himself from a qb that is in his third different system in as many years. what does that tell me? given time in this system, aj will be alot better than frerotte".
  • Again this is unsubstanciated. There is clear separation indicated by Frerotte getting the reps with the first unit. To say that AJ will be better than Frerotte once he is "given time" is pure specualtion. To date AJ has not shown the ability to run the offense in an effective manner, no excuses. In regards to AJ "locking on" he continues to do this because his brain is not processing information fast enough and he doesn't "see" the field very well. The WCO is a series of reads and check downs based on coverage, route break off and timing. Another excuse.
"So as one qb has progressed in linehan's system, it appears the other has not".
  • Honestly it's apples and oranges to compare Culpepper to Frerotte. Frerotte demonstrated the ability to produce when given the opportunity and some of that production was exceptional.
"Given his lack of progression in linehan's system and his age, it is very unlikely there will be any substantial improvement at this point or over the course of the next few years.
  • Again your position is flawed as you presume Frerotte has not progressed. The point is moot. Clearly the investment placed on Feeley and the dysfunction of last season bode well for his return. And Feeley was cap friendly. The practical thing to do for the offense was to bring in Frerotte as a proven producer with familiarity of system. This helped the offense develop faster because they had a QB that knew the system and could work from day one with WR's. You cannot discount the fact that the development of the WR's and the "long ball mentallity" would have been significantly stunted had we had all QB's been in stage one of the learning curve. Frerotte clearly proved to be better at running the offense.
"Because saban did not draft a franchise quarterback in his first nfl draft with the dolphins, starting frerotte this season would be counter productive to miami's long term goals".
  • This is so much whoooie.... There were no franchise QB's. Smith was "promoted" as such but what do you see happening in SF. And then the next "franchise QB" falls to bottom of round one and apparently can't hit a barn from 20 yards.
"It is undetermined what aj feeley will be capable of in scott linehan's offense because he hasn't had a single season to get comfortable with it. because miami gave up a second round draft pick for aj, they need to run aj out there in this new system and give him an opportunity before deciding to cut their losses".
  • It is undertermined what AJ can do period. It's what OTA's and training camp is for... to develop. He looks exactly the same as last year with better coaching, system and support... it is Feeley who has failed to develop.
  • It's laughable and disrespectful of the rest of the units on the Dolphins to suggest to "run AJ out there" and hope for the best.
  • The losses are not Saban's, he is trying to evaluate the product and how/if it fits in the long term goals of the team.
"Indicated by dante culpeppers numbers, it takes time to develop in scott linehan's system". "Drafting or signing a free agent quarterback next offseason would make this season a complete waste from a quaterback development standpoint".

  • Pardon me but again so much whooie... it takes on average 3 years to develop ANY productive QB in ANY system in the NFL.
  • Drafting or signing a young FA QB in next year is exactly what the Dolphins need to do. To state it "wastes" a year of QB development has so many holes in it that it would take to long to post.
  • This team had/has many holes to fill and limited picks in 2005. QB in 2006 no matter what or who does what this season.
"Gus Frerotte is not leading us to the playoffs, guys. not this year, not next year, or any year thereafter".
  • Let's just not play the games.....joke.
  • This baseless opinion really undermines your post in general. For you to even have "playoff" asperations shows you have a lack of fundamental knowledge of the team and talent.
  • Frerotte gives us an opportunity to succeed by making good decisions, and managing the offense and game. Some may not like to hear the strategy but is't clear we intend to keep things close with the D and "over-achieve" on offense.
In closing, I honestly don't care who starts at QB as long as they give us an opportunity to compete and don't "cost" the team games that can otherwise be won by making poor decisions.

IMO it's time to start thinking long term with Saban and the team... the sooner the "fans" understand this the better. If you look at the all the drafts from the DW and RS years you will not find many players. Our lack of depth and talent at many positions will take time to find and develop. Unless something magical happens it looks like this will be a 3 year process.
 
Very impressive post!! I agree with your final conclusion regarding the long term benefit of finding what AJ has to offer. I fear however that he may only be effective in a WCO where he is not required to make reads on the fly. He may NEED to make his reads prior to the snap. If so the question becomes, do we change the system to adjust to the talents on the players, or draft players that fit the system?
 
Jimmy James said:
You know what makes me the most skeptical of all of that? It seems mental with AJ, not physical. I think you can coach around or sometimes even fix physical shortcomings, but I just don't know that I see the mental part of the game ever clicking for AJ. With Gus, it seems more like a physical thing. I have been staying out of this debate, but this makes me wonder if maybe I shouldn't be putting myself in the Gus camp.
Click to expand...

You put your finger on it! I don't think AJ has the head to be a good QB.
 
thedayafter said:
"With each day as aj feeley gets more reps, the gap between them, if there is any at all, continues to move in aj's favor".
  • I have yet to read anything substancial that backs this position. In fact more published information gives Frerotte the clean advantage including the intangibles.
"The most intriuging thing so far in camp is the fact that gus was brought in because of his familiarity with offensive coordinator scott linehan's system, yet at this point has still not seperated himself from a qb that is in his third different system in as many years. what does that tell me? given time in this system, aj will be alot better than frerotte".
  • Again this is unsubstanciated. There is clear separation indicated by Frerotte getting the reps with the first unit. To say that AJ will be better than Frerotte once he is "given time" is pure specualtion. To date AJ has not shown the ability to run the offense in an effective manner, no excuses. In regards to AJ "locking on" he continues to do this because his brain is not processing information fast enough and he doesn't "see" the field very well. The WCO is a series of reads and check downs based on coverage, route break off and timing. Another excuse.
"So as one qb has progressed in linehan's system, it appears the other has not".
  • Honestly it's apples and oranges to compare Culpepper to Frerotte. Frerotte demonstrated the ability to produce when given the opportunity and some of that production was exceptional.
"Given his lack of progression in linehan's system and his age, it is very unlikely there will be any substantial improvement at this point or over the course of the next few years.
  • Again your position is flawed as you presume Frerotte has not progressed. The point is moot. Clearly the investment placed on Feeley and the dysfunction of last season bode well for his return. And Feeley was cap friendly. The practical thing to do for the offense was to bring in Frerotte as a proven producer with familiarity of system. This helped the offense develop faster because they had a QB that knew the system and could work from day one with WR's. You cannot discount the fact that the development of the WR's and the "long ball mentallity" would have been significantly stunted had we had all QB's been in stage one of the learning curve. Frerotte clearly proved to be better at running the offense.
"Because saban did not draft a franchise quarterback in his first nfl draft with the dolphins, starting frerotte this season would be counter productive to miami's long term goals".
  • This is so much whoooie.... There were no franchise QB's. Smith was "promoted" as such but what do you see happening in SF. And then the next "franchise QB" falls to bottom of round one and apparently can't hit a barn from 20 yards.
"It is undetermined what aj feeley will be capable of in scott linehan's offense because he hasn't had a single season to get comfortable with it. because miami gave up a second round draft pick for aj, they need to run aj out there in this new system and give him an opportunity before deciding to cut their losses".
  • It is undertermined what AJ can do period. It's what OTA's and training camp is for... to develop. He looks exactly the same as last year with better coaching, system and support... it is Feeley who has failed to develop.
  • It's laughable and disrespectful of the rest of the units on the Dolphins to suggest to "run AJ out there" and hope for the best.
  • The losses are not Saban's, he is trying to evaluate the product and how/if it fits in the long term goals of the team.
"Indicated by dante culpeppers numbers, it takes time to develop in scott linehan's system". "Drafting or signing a free agent quarterback next offseason would make this season a complete waste from a quaterback development standpoint".

  • Pardon me but again so much whooie... it takes on average 3 years to develop ANY productive QB in ANY system in the NFL.
  • Drafting or signing a young FA QB in next year is exactly what the Dolphins need to do. To state it "wastes" a year of QB development has so many holes in it that it would take to long to post.
  • This team had/has many holes to fill and limited picks in 2005. QB in 2006 no matter what or who does what this season.
"Gus Frerotte is not leading us to the playoffs, guys. not this year, not next year, or any year thereafter".
  • Let's just not play the games.....joke.
  • This baseless opinion really undermines your post in general. For you to even have "playoff" asperations shows you have a lack of fundamental knowledge of the team and talent.
  • Frerotte gives us an opportunity to succeed by making good decisions, and managing the offense and game. Some may not like to hear the strategy but is't clear we intend to keep things close with the D and "over-achieve" on offense.
In closing, I honestly don't care who starts at QB as long as they give us an opportunity to compete and don't "cost" the team games that can otherwise be won by making poor decisions.

IMO it's time to start thinking long term with Saban and the team... the sooner the "fans" understand this the better. If you look at the all the drafts from the DW and RS years you will not find many players. Our lack of depth and talent at many positions will take time to find and develop. Unless something magical happens it looks like this will be a 3 year process.
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom