Looking at receivers in draft

[jim1]

Chambers got too bulky in the upper body when he was in college was my point....

TO weighing 220 isn't the point either...it's that most of his bulk is in his upper body....

It affects consistency with the quick twitch muscles in the fingers and hands, etc....

Look at Calvin Johnson...Larry Fitzgerald, etc......they're not as bulky up top....even though they're both big receivers over 220 pounds....the bulk is distributed evenly in the lower body.....same with Boldin....

Just curious....how are you trying to profile your receivers that you think fits specifically what Miami's needs are at the position?

Profiling- in my case using the term loosely- meaning that I'm looking for traits in college WRs that I think that the Dolphins desperately need. I look at Tate and I see speed and quickness. Good hands and it's not like the dude is small at 5-11, 195. Good kick retruner. D Thomas- the size that I crave and is a big play machine. The thing is that a guy like DThomas has to separate himself from a Pat Turner. DThomas is getting it done, but he's not the most explosive guy on the planet. Dez Bryant is a dominating beast of a WR with hands and great leaping ability. Benn is a fast, quick, physical force, but that doesn't make him a sure thing- I just happen to like him and see serious talent right where we need it. The guy at USC now runs really good routes and has good hands, pretty average size. I like him, but I'm not really geeked up on him. Gilyard- I can see what people are talking about but looking at a few clips doesn't make me worthy of much of an opinion. Williams from Syracuse- interesting from my perspectvie in terms of profiling. I have never seen the dude play- but you take his speed, size, production and combine it with the sheer athletic explosion on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6chghl-g0N8

Look at what that dude is throwing down at 6-2, my God. I've never seen this guy play, so how can I have an opinion? But in terms of profiling, take the sum of the parts- aformentioned size, speed, production- and add it to this athletic ability- and what you're left with is a problem child who can ball. Maybe this is as close as I come to profiling- the elements are there and I'm going to be very interested to see how high a team will go to take a chance on either greatness or a bust and tremendous headache. If I recall correctly Bill Walsh got even more geeked up about Joe Montana after watching him play basketball- I haven't seen many guys throw down like Williams and it indicates serious lower body explosion that translates on to a football field. So you could say that I'm profiling the guy, but my opinion is jack**** because I haven't seen him play.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

So you're looking for lower body explosion? How much significance would you say lower body explosion has to do with run-after-the-catch-ability, for example?

Would you consider Brandon Marshall as explosive? How about Miles Austin? Marques Colston? Greg Jennings?

Would you be looking for the guys who perform the best in the vertical jump and broad jump at the combine?

 

[jim1]

So you're looking for lower body explosion? How much significance would you say lower body explosion has to do with run-after-the-catch-ability, for example?

Would you consider Brandon Marshall as explosive? How about Miles Austin? Marques Colston? Greg Jennings?

Would you be looking for the guys who perform the best in the vertical jump and broad jump at the combine?

Miles Austin is explosive. Brandon Marshall has wheels and size, Colston is one of those manimal types who has some explosion but is just a man out there taking his. Jennings has explosion. In terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc., I started a thread about the Fins WR's and draft prospects- wondering what the common threads are in terms of Colston, Austin, Brandon Marshall, etc. I'm not sure, I prefer the eyeball method.

Explosion is this year's term for me in terms of WR's because the Dolphins don't have any. Tate has it, Benn has some to go along with his size and strength. I don't know to what extent it's quantifiable- Hartline had great shuttle #'s- I mean tops- and I look at him in terms of explostion and think, "nope". I saw film of Jerry Rice training- dude ran a 4.7 but he EXPLODED out of cuts. Dwayne Bowe has it. Makes his moves at that size and bam, he's gone. That stuff sticks with me. I have to see the player, I'm not sure that a vertical or broad jump # is going to do it, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Miles Austin is explosive. Brandon Marshall has wheels and size, Colston is one of those manimal types who has some explosion but is just a man out there taking his. Jennings has explosion. In terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc., I started a thread about the Fins WR's and draft prospects- wondering what the common threads are in terms of Colston, Austin, Brandon Marshall, etc. I'm not sure, I prefer the eyeball method.

Explosion is this year's term for me in terms of WR's because the Dolphins don't have any. Tate has it, Benn has some to go along with his size and strength. I don't know to what extent it's quantifiable- Hartline had great shuttle #'s- I mean tops- and I look at him in terms of explostion and think, "nope". I saw film of Jerry Rice training- dude ran a 4.7 but he EXPLODED out of cuts. Dwayne Bowe has it. Makes his moves at that size and bam, he's gone. That stuff sticks with me. I have to see the player, I'm not sure that a vertical or broad jump # is going to do it, but it doesn't hurt.

Alright well that's kinda what I was looking for from you...

I believe Miami needs to focus on acquiring some WR's that are explosive....and can run after the catch......and lower body explosion (in terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc.) aren't as signficant as shuttle times IMO...

I think the lower body explosion is significant in eating up a DB's cushion quickly and forcing him to open his hips up.....make his body commit physically to something....then work him over from there with your route running..

Shuttle times and cone times are more directly related to precise route running and run after the catch ability IMO......ability to sink your hips....change direction....move laterally in traffic, etc....

It's just something helpful if you're not familiar with a certain player or haven't watched him play in order to give him the "eye ball" test...

"Big"..."Tall"...blah blah etc.....none of that stuff matters to me.....

I want a player who's quick in and out of cuts and creates seperation....catches the ball with his hands.....breaks a few tackles....runs crisp routes....and can run after the catch.....I dont care if he's 5'5" or 6'5"......as a legendary coach once said..."As long as his feet touch the ground it doesn't matter"....

I'm not one to tout prospects or criticize them unless I'm familiar with what I'm talking about....and I really like Tate....Gilyard...Lafell....Bryant...and Damian Williams as potential WR's for Miami......along with a few small school guys who generally get very little exposure....

 

[jim1]

Alright well that's kinda what I was looking for from you...

I believe Miami needs to focus on acquiring some WR's that are explosive....and can run after the catch......and lower body explosion (in terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc.) aren't as signficant as shuttle times IMO...

I think the lower body explosion is significant in eating up a DB's cushion quickly and forcing him to open his hips up.....make his body commit physically to something....then work him over from there with your route running..

Shuttle times and cone times are more directly related to precise route running and run after the catch ability IMO......ability to sink your hips....change direction....move laterally in traffic, etc....

It's just something helpful if you're not familiar with a certain player or haven't watched him play in order to give him the "eye ball" test...

"Big"..."Tall"...blah blah etc.....none of that stuff matters to me.....

I want a player who's quick in and out of cuts and creates seperation....catches the ball with his hands.....breaks a few tackles....runs crisp routes....and can run after the catch.....I dont care if he's 5'5" or 6'5"......as a legendary coach once said..."As long as his feet touch the ground it doesn't matter"....

I'm not one to tout prospects or criticize them unless I'm familiar with what I'm talking about....and I really like Tate....Gilyard...Lafell....Bryant...and Damian Williams as potential WR's for Miami......along with a few small school guys who generally get very little exposure....

I think that big and tall (blah blah as you call them) - and aggressive- should matter to you. It's all important- speed, quicks, strength, aggression. But big and tall are going to help a guy create space and position if they know how to use their body, go up to get a ball and help him with yac (the big/strong part, that is.)

Whatever qualities Lafell brings to the table as a 1st rd pick I'm just not seeing- and I don't see the comparisons to Bowe. Could I see him as a 2nd rd guy for us? Sure. I've been as clear as I can that I can see merit re: Gilyard and Williams based on flimsy evidence at best and I include them because they are considered very good prospects. I'm more interested on feedback regarding them because I have no basis for a true opinion. Damien Williams- is he special or is he a very competent and talented WR? I'm not sure. But when USC is on he doesn't grab my attention. I've been going out on a limb re: Benn for a while because I see a special, repressed talent in him. Dude is trapped in that putrid Illinois offense. As to the workout #s- vertical, shuttle, etc.- they're measured for a reason, but there are guys every year like Todd Lowber and that volley ball playing dude that almost made the Dolphins a few years ago that get flushed out despite eye popping measurables- they're nice, but not everything by a long shot. And no offense, but I'll bring up any player that I want to. If I'm not familiar with the player I'll make that very clear.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I think that big and tall (blah blah blah as you call them) - and aggressive- should matter to you. It's all important- speed, quicks, strength, aggression. But big and tall are going to help a guy create space and position if they know how to use their body, go up to get a ball and help him with yac (the big/strong part, that is.)

Whatever qualities Lafell brings to the table as a 1st rd pick I'm just not seeing- and I don't see the comparisons to Bowe. Could I see him as a 2nd rd guy for us? Sure. I've been as clear as I can that I can see merit re: Gilyard and Williams based on flimsy evidence at best and I include them because they are considered very good prospects. I'm more interested on feedback regarding them because I have no basis for a true opinion. Damien Williams- is he special or is he a very competent and talented WR? I'm not sure. But when USC is on he doesn't grab my attention. I've been going out on a limb re: Benn for a while because I see a special, repressed talent in him. Dude is trapped in that putrid Illinois offense. As to the workout #s- vertical, shuttle, etc.- they're measured for a reason, but there are guys every year like Todd Lowber and that volley ball playing dude that almost made the Dolphins a few years ago that get flushed out despite eye popping measurables- they're nice, but not everything by a long shot. And no offense, but I'll bring up any player that I want to. If I'm not familiar with the player I'll make that very clear.

I think you misunderstood me....I wasn't in anyway referring to who you brought up or why....that's what we're here for....I was simply putting it out there that I won't tout a prospect or criticize him in a baseless manner...

And since you said that you hadn't seen Mike Williams play....that once he tests in the combine drills that certain drills are more pertinent to the certain aspects you're looking for in a WR......as opposed to dunking a basketball.....Terrance Cody can dunk a basketball....but I don't want him playing WR for me if that makes sense....

I never said speed, aggression, quicks, and strength didn't matter.....in fact...that's exactly what I'd be looking for.....I said "big" and "tall" doesn't matter to me....

I see plenty of WR's that aren't 6-4, 220 that play with much more aggression and strength than some of the bigger guys....

Being 6'3" - 6'5" is useless if you don't have control over it.....give me the 5'11" guy with those attributes that can create seperation....

I don't think Damian Williams is special....I think he's one of the best route runners who does a lot of the little things well....same for Gilyard...except Gilyard is more aggressive IMO...

Williams doesn't catch my eye when I watch USC as much as the tight end McCoy does....I think that guy could be special....

The reason I asked you if you thought guys like Marshall, Austin, Jennings, Colston, etc. were explosive, and what that had to with RAC ability is because they all were average by comparison when you look at their verticals and broad jumps....

 

[jim1]

I think you misunderstood me....I wasn't in anyway referring to who you brought up or why....that's what we're here for....I was simply putting it out there that I won't tout a prospect or criticize him in a baseless manner...

And since you said that you hadn't seen Mike Williams play....that once he tests in the combine drills that certain drills are more pertinent to the certain aspects you're looking for in a WR......as opposed to dunking a basketball.....Terrance Cody can dunk a basketball....but I don't want him playing WR for me if that makes sense....

I never said speed, aggression, quicks, and strength didn't matter.....in fact...that's exactly what I'd be looking for.....I said "big" and "tall" doesn't matter to me....

I see plenty of WR's that aren't 6-4, 220 that play with much more aggression and strength than some of the bigger guys....

Being 6'3" - 6'5" is useless if you don't have control over it.....give me the 5'11" guy with those attributes that can create seperation....

I don't think Damian Williams is special....I think he's one of the best route runners who does a lot of the little things well....same for Gilyard...except Gilyard is more aggressive IMO...

Williams doesn't catch my eye when I watch USC as much as the tight end McCoy does....I think that guy could be special....

The reason I asked you if you thought guys like Marshall, Austin, Jennings, Colston, etc. were explosive, and what that had to with RAC ability is because they all were average by comparison when you look at their verticals and broad jumps....

All fair points. I think that Colston had a very good 10 yard split time. Colston, Austin, Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall- they seem to know how to use their size- we could sure use a receiver like those guys. if I recall correctly Jackson was very fast for a bug guy coming out into the draft. Austin- all I know is that for the last couple of years I see the guy and he has the look- the dude is big and fast. I know that it's an oversimplification but you just look at the guy and he reeks of potential.

As to the testing- I disagree with you about the short shuttle- seems like a good test to me. And Hartline blew that test out of the water- yet where's the explosion? I'll be a monkey's uncle if he ever slams like Williams. So what I'm saying is that i'm confused by that one. Cody slamming is great for a NT- but lets' not mix apples and oranges. Williams put on a show at 6-2, and ther's a hand-eye coordination component going on there as well. i'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill- all I'm saying is that I saw Williams, a player whom I've heard qite a lot about but haven't seen play- dunk the hell out of the basketball and thought, "hmmm..."

I see your point about speed, quicks, strength trumping height and size. For me personally, hell yes I'd take a look at Golden Tate in rd 2. Dude has some excellent qualities and being 5-11 doesn't take them away by a long shot.

 

[Valandui]

All fair points. I think that Colston had a very good 10 yard split time. Colston, Austin, Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall- they seem to know how to use their size- we could sure use a receiver like those guys. if I recall correctly Jackson was very fast for a bug guy coming out into the draft. Austin- all I know is that for the last couple of years I see the guy and he has the look- the dude is big and fast. I know that it's an oversimplification but you just look at the guy and he reeks of potential.

As to the testing- I disagree with you about the short shuttle- seems like a good test to me. And Hartline blew that test out of the water- yet where's the explosion? I'll be a monkey's uncle if he ever slams like Williams. So what I'm saying is that i'm confused by that one. Cody slamming is great for a NT- but lets' not mix apples and oranges. Williams put on a show at 6-2, and ther's a hand-eye coordination component going on there as well. i'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill- all I'm saying is that I saw Williams, a player whom I've heard qite a lot about but haven't seen play- dunk the hell out of the basketball and thought, "hmmm..."

I see your point about speed, quicks, strength trumping height and size. For me personally, hell yes I'd take a look at Golden Tate in rd 2. Dude has some excellent qualities and being 5-11 doesn't take them away by a long shot.

Vincent Jackson ran a 4.38 at the combine checking in at 6'5" and 241 lbs. I wonder why this guy fell to the second round.

 

[jim1]

Vincent Jackson ran a 4.38 at the combine checking in at 6'5" and 241 lbs. I wonder why this guy fell to the second round.

Low second round pick at that. My best guess is that he went to a smaller football school (northern Colorado) so he was considered a bigger risk than a big school guy. Nearly ideal size and he hauls, great pickup for SD. We need one of those guys down here.

 

[houtz]

I don't follow the Broncos or Chargers very much. I did see Marshall push Moreno yesterday. What are the odds that the front office would take a look at either of these guys if they would by some miracle hit Free Agency?

 

[Valandui]

I don't follow the Broncos or Chargers very much. I did see Marshall push Moreno yesterday. What are the odds that the front office would take a look at either of these guys if they would by some miracle hit Free Agency?

I think that if we make a push for any FA WR, it will be Miles Austin since he is a guy Parcells and Ireland found and I'm pretty sure that we wanted him this past offseason before Dallas put a second round tender on him. In retrospect, it may have been a good move. At the time we made the right move though as he was completely unproven at that point and it would have been stupid to give a second for him. Even if they tag him I could see us trying to work out a trade or something.

 

[jim1]

I think that if we make a push for any FA WR, it will be Miles Austin since he is a guy Parcells and Ireland found and I'm pretty sure that we wanted him this past offseason before Dallas put a second round tender on him. In retrospect, it may have been a good move. At the time we made the right move though as he was completely unproven at that point and it would have been stupid to give a second for him. Even if they tag him I could see us trying to work out a trade or something.

The cat is out of the bag re: Austin and I doubt that he's going anywhere. I liked Kevin Burnett at OLB, too. I saw explosion that I liked tonight, albeit on a ko return- Andre Davis, WR Houston. I have no idea if he'll be a FA next year.

 

[Valandui]

The cat is out of the bag re: Austin and I doubt that he's going anywhere. I liked Kevin Burnett at OLB, too. I saw explosion that I liked tonight, albeit on a ko return- Andre Davis, WR Houston. I have no idea if he'll be a FA next year.

You're right, but Austin has only done this for half of a season. If we did trade for him, it probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. I don't really see it going through, but I think an attempt will be made.

 

[jim1]

You're right, but Austin has only done this for half of a season. If we did trade for him, it probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. I don't really see it going through, but I think an attempt will be made.

I don't see how Dallas would let him go with Roy Williams underperforming.

 

[jim1]

Miles Austin is explosive. Brandon Marshall has wheels and size, Colston is one of those manimal types who has some explosion but is just a man out there taking his. Jennings has explosion. In terms of vertical jump, broad jump, etc., I started a thread about the Fins WR's and draft prospects- wondering what the common threads are in terms of Colston, Austin, Brandon Marshall, etc. I'm not sure, I prefer the eyeball method.

Explosion is this year's term for me in terms of WR's because the Dolphins don't have any. Tate has it, Benn has some to go along with his size and strength. I don't know to what extent it's quantifiable- Hartline had great shuttle #'s- I mean tops- and I look at him in terms of explostion and think, "nope". I saw film of Jerry Rice training- dude ran a 4.7 but he EXPLODED out of cuts. Dwayne Bowe has it. Makes his moves at that size and bam, he's gone. That stuff sticks with me. I have to see the player, I'm not sure that a vertical or broad jump # is going to do it, but it doesn't hurt.

p.s. re: explosion- explosion come in different packages, there's the Usain Bolt variety but often it comes in the form of very muscular guys. Look at track sprinters- the aformentioned Bolt, Skeets Neyamiah, Carl Lewis- muscular and lean. But often these guys are pretty darned thick and muscular a la Ben Johnson- yeah I know he was juiced up. A good friend of mine ran track at Clemson- he pointed this out to me that often explosive speed comes in a very thick and muscular body. And that would apply to other athletic pursuits as well- shot putting, that kind of track and field stuff.

What I'm getting at is your question of what am I looking for in terms of explosion? For better or worse the templates are Miles Austin (realistically) and Andre Johnson (unrealistically). I'm not saying that this approach is right, it's just some amateur hack with a sense- a profile- of what he's looking for in a Dolphins receiver. Again, a photo of Benn:

Look at the lower bodies of Clemson's CJ Spiller and Jacoby Ford:

So this is kind of what I'm looking for- I bring up Spiller and Ford in terms over lower body strength as it relates to explosion, not that they're tops on my list in terms of WRs The templates again are Miles Austin and Andre Johnson. So when I see Benn the light goes off in my head, this is the right kind of guy. And the dude is right there at 6-2, 220- a physical presence with quicks and wheels. It ain't science, it's just my thought process and preferences.