Martin & Incognito: Correlation Doesn't Equal Causation | Why We Need to Start Over

[Shouright]

Well first of all you conveniently neglected to mention maybe the most important fact:

3) The Dolphins AND NFL, confirmed the existence of the VM/Texts and the Dolphins subsequently SUSPENDED INCOGNITO INDEFINITELY...

It was the team and League REACTION to the aforementioned events which delivered the CAUSATION on a platter and further also admitted GUILT... Are you seriously trying to intimate that the two events ARE NOT RELATED? if so what in the world would be the Dolphins agenda for not revealing that they suspended Incognito for DIFFERENT REASONS???

Martin had the team by the balls there. When Martin produced evidence that Incognito used the 'N' word toward him, to maintain positive PR, the team was forced to act against the offending party (the suspension) while an investigation by a neutral party (the NFL) ensues.

The Dolphins' suspension of Incognito wasn't an admission by the team by any means that Martin left the team because of Incognito, however. Notice that in Philbin's press conference, the only point of clear emphasis about the situation was that Martin had not mentioned Incognito to him prior to the submission of the voicemail and text messages. While appropriately unstated, that's an implication in itself that Martin's motives may be ulterior.

 

[Fish-Head]

Martin had the team by the balls there. When Martin produced evidence that Incognito used the 'N' word toward him, to maintain positive PR, the team was forced to act against the offending party (the suspension) while an investigation by a neutral party (the NFL) ensues.

The Dolphins' suspension of Incognito wasn't an admission by the team by any means that Martin left the team because of Incognito, however. Notice that in Philbin's press conference, the only point of clear emphasis about the situation was that Martin had not mentioned Incognito to him prior to the submission of the voicemail and text messages. While appropriately unstated, that's an implication in itself that Martin's motives may be ulterior.

There... Right there... By admitting that Martin had the Dolphins 'by the balls' you JUST ADMITTED he had 'cause'... YOU JUST SAID IT... And to imply that the League is a 'neutral party' is ridiculous to say the least... You truly don't think the NFL has ANYTHING to lose in this????? Come on.

Philbin's 'statement' was a CLEAR attempt to protect the 'Team'... Not Incognito... or anyone else... You've got this completely backwards... Philbin's comments were designed SPECIFICALLY to disavow knowledge... to DISTANCE himself but more importantly the TEAM... To try and REDUCE the amount of exposure to litigation... because they know and have acted under the assumption (that you also very clearly iterated) THAT MARTIN HAS A GRIEVANCE. This is not about IF the Dolphins and / or Incognito transgressed... IT IS ABOUT HOW MUCH.

 

[Shouright]

There... Right there... By admitting that Martin had the Dolphins 'by the balls' you JUST ADMITTED he had 'cause'... YOU JUST SAID IT... And to imply that the League is a 'neutral party' is ridiculous to say the least... You truly don't think the NFL has ANYTHING to lose in this????? Come on.

Philbin's 'statement' was a CLEAR attempt to protect the 'Team'... Not Incognito... or anyone else... You've got this completely backwards... Philbin's comments were designed SPECIFICALLY to disavow knowledge... to DISTANCE himself but more importantly the TEAM... To try and REDUCE the amount of exposure to litigation... because they know and have acted under the assumption (that you also very clearly iterated) THAT MARTIN HAS A GRIEVANCE. This is not about IF the Dolphins and / or Incognito transgressed... IT IS ABOUT HOW MUCH.

Sure, and that "how much" could be determined to be almost nil when this is all said and done, and the evidence has been fully presented and considered. He may get nothing more than a slap on the wrist for using the 'N' word, even in a playful manner, "because it can be harmful when misconstrued."

In other words, the fact that Incognito has been suspended and may receive further disciplinary action when it's all said and done doesn't in itself indicate that Martin truly left the team because of Incognito.

I'm not arguing that Incognito's actions can't be seen as offensive. I'm saying we don't know whether those actions are truly the cause of Martin's behavior.

 

[Fish-Head]

Sure, and that "how much" could be determined to be almost nil when this is all said and done, and the evidence has been fully presented and considered. He may get nothing more than a slap on the wrist for using the 'N' word, even in a playful manner, "because it can be harmful when misconstrued."

In other words, the fact that Incognito has been suspended and may receive further disciplinary action when it's all said and done doesn't in itself indicate that Martin truly left the team because of Incognito.

I'm not arguing that Incognito's actions can't be seen as offensive. I'm saying we don't know whether those actions are truly the cause of Martin's behavior.

Honestly you are going to have to explain how this would make ANY SENSE for the Dolphins to let Cogs swing in the wind like that... I means it makes LESS THAN ZERO sense... And it would actually open them up to litigation from Incognito as well!!!

Your affirmation that Martin had them 'by the balls' is CONFIRMATION that he has a grievance... it means that you; like EVERYONE; accepts the fact that he has a legitimate claim... The Dolphins suspension of him was only OFFICIAL confirmation of what everyone already knows...

 

[Shouright]

Honestly you are going to have to explain how this would make ANY SENSE for the Dolphins to let Cogs swing in the wind like that... I means it makes LESS THAN ZERO sense... And it would actually open them up to litigation from Incognito as well!!!

Your affirmation that Martin had them 'by the balls' is CONFIRMATION that he has a grievance... it means that you; like EVERYONE; accepts the fact that he has a legitimate claim... The Dolphins suspension of him was only OFFICIAL confirmation of what everyone already knows...

Because the team values its PR, since it drives ticket and merchandise sales and thereby sustains the organization, and the 'N' word in today's culture is a PR killer. You can't be a business in the public eye in today's world and let your customers' perception be that you implicitly "support" the use of the 'N' word by your employees.

The team has to act on the basis of the 'N' word alone until the matter is investigated and the details are sorted out. However, that doesn't mean the 'N' word is what caused Martin's behavior.

 

[WesternNYDolfan]

Great post. Essesntially what I was thinking but have been too fired up to eloquently state like this lol Good job by you

 

[ED AminJoeGreen]

One option we might consider is that Martin might actually be suffering from mental illness. There are quite a few serious mental illnesses that present themselves in the mid-20's. I struggle with the idea that he is somehow soft (whatever that means) this man started 3 years at Left Tackle for Stanford guarding Andrew Luck. He then immediately starts in the NFL at right tackle then is moved to left tackle. For me its hard to see how fans think a guy goes from a starting NFL lineman to a "nancy boy". Would it make a difference to fans to find out Martin has been diagnosed with something serious?

I just don't think we know the facts yet and truthfully are we entitled to all the facts immediately?

 

[Fish-Head]

Because the team values its PR, since it drives ticket and merchandise sales and thereby sustains the organization, and the 'N' word in today's culture is a PR killer. You can't be a business in the public eye in today's world and let your customers' perception be that you implicitly "support" the use of the 'N' word by your employees.

The team has to act on the basis of the 'N' word alone until the matter is investigated and the details are sorted out. However, that doesn't mean the 'N' word is what caused Martin's behavior.

And all of this is only FURTHER evidence that supports Martin's claim and right to compensation... The more you say the 'N' word is 'damaging' the MORE YOU STRENGTHEN HIS CLAIM... I can't keep saying this...

I don't get it.. Are you still thinking the Phins might walk away unscathed from this??? Because honestly the newest accusations about the possibilities of 'code reds' or that Ireland's epic ineptness in handling this are EVEN MORE DAMAGING if they are proven... But right now Martin already HAS ENOUGH to take this forward. BIG TIME.

 

[Shouright]

And all of this is only FURTHER evidence that supports Martin's claim and right to compensation... The more you say the 'N' word is 'damaging' the MORE YOU STRENGTHEN HIS CLAIM... I can't keep saying this...

I don't get it.. Are you still thinking the Phins might walk away unscathed from this??? Because honestly the newest accusations about the possibilities of 'code reds' or that Ireland's epic ineptness in handling this are EVEN MORE DAMAGING if they are proven... But right now Martin already HAS ENOUGH to take this forward. BIG TIME.

I think you're not getting the main premise I'm trying to make, that although there were things done in this case that could be viewed as "wrongs" and could be punishable (such as the use of the 'N' word), there is no evidence that those particular things actually caused Martin to leave the team. Martin could've left the team for entirely different reasons.

 

[Fish-Head]

I think you're not getting the main premise I'm trying to make, that although there were things done in this case that could be viewed as "wrongs" and could be punishable (such as the use of the 'N' word), there is no evidence that those particular things actually caused Martin to leave the team. Martin could've left the team for entirely different reasons.

No I ABSOLUTELY get it... But the issue of cause has been established and these VM's/Texts have been submitted as EVIDENCE of a history of abuse. Martin is under no obligation to explain word for word what he finds offensive (at least not to us) as both the Dolphins and the League have agreed with him.

Listen I'm not trying to be an ass nor am I trying to get overly emotional... Seems to be enough emotion coursing through these threads last few days... But I just think that everyone has conceded that MArtin left because of 'abusive behavior' and Incognito's suspension was a result of that.

 

[Canadi-Phin]

Well first of all you conveniently neglected to mention maybe the most important fact:

3) The Dolphins AND NFL, confirmed the existence of the VM/Texts and the Dolphins subsequently SUSPENDED INCOGNITO INDEFINITELY...

It was the team and League REACTION to the aforementioned events which delivered the CAUSATION on a platter and further also admitted GUILT... Are you seriously trying to intimate that the two events ARE NOT RELATED? if so what in the world would be the Dolphins agenda for not revealing that they suspended Incognito for DIFFERENT REASONS???

Honestly one of the things I am most tired of is this CONSTANT contradiction by the 'Cog' side... When they scream to high heaven that Incognito is being railroaded and then proceed to do the EXACT SAME THING to Martin... Most often in the EXACT SAME POST. You don't get to scream for fairness and equality for ONLY ONE SIDE.

Your Boston globe article is a PERFECT example of this... it begins by lamenting about the treatment Cogs is getting through pure speculation, conjecture, laziness and stereotype ONLY TO THEN INTRODUCE ARGUMENTS AGAINST MARTIN BASED ON THE EXACT SAME THINGS.

The funny thing to me is EVERYONE on here... On the Cog side... is treating this like these VM's and Texts are the EXTENT of the abuse when NO ONE knows... They say 'man up, this is football, nancy boy' and every single ridiculous outdated, out of touch, obtuse and irrelevant Knute Rockne cliche they can think of because they are working on the assumption that this is where the abuse began and ended. Also that these would not offend 'them' in the same scenario...

But It is actually the Cognito camp that is doing FAR MORE of this kind of arguing... and speculating... Want FURTHER PROOF OF IT? Take a peek into the Jonathan martin hires 'lawyer' thread and look at all the speculating and agenda pushing rhetoric from the Cog side in the name of 'fairness'... The fact that he had the nerve to hire representation... it's laughable. Honestly who is surprised by this???? No one but its the Cog side trying to spin it to their advantage. So Martin is not allowed to hire who he thinks will best represent him now??? Nope all part of the so called 'Martin' ... ummm *ahem*... *Cough cough* 'grand plan'...

I'll say this for Martin... so far he is the only party proved to have a credible grievance... in this whole freakin clusterf*** ... and that was established by the Dolphins themselves..

*edited for spelling*

Wait your calling for people to not railroad Martin or take Richie's side but it was oky for everyont to take Martin's side witha transcript of the message with the N-word, with no context? That equally sounds real fair. Credible grievance?? Seriously? If Richie is joking in his text does that mean he actually wasn't threatening Martin's mom or his mouth? If he used the N-word as a term of endearment regardless of what you think of the word, is his grievance still credible?

Both sides have done tons of speculation. Until the voicemail is heard by everyone will we be able to put it into context. In fairness to the Lawyer arguments, why does he need one? He only needs to go to the union to have a solution worked out for him. Instead his family has decided to get outside counsel. Does none of this seem just a little strange to you? Your just taking one friend calling another friend a bad word as the silver bullet? I think your stretching it as much as anyone on the Cogs side of things.

You are doing the same thing in Martin's defense as others are doing in Cogs defense.

 

[Canadi-Phin]

No I ABSOLUTELY get it... But the issue of cause has been established and these VM's/Texts have been submitted as EVIDENCE of a history of abuse. Martin is under no obligation to explain word for word what he finds offensive (at least not to us) as both the Dolphins and the League have agreed with him.

Listen I'm not trying to be an ass nor am I trying to get overly emotional... Seems to be enough emotion coursing through these threads last few days... But I just think that everyone has conceded that MArtin left because of 'abusive behavior' and Incognito's suspension was a result of that.

Have you not read today's articles how Cogs was not the only person all of the sudden? After all the players came out and called Martin out. The timing of all of this is so calculated. Its bull****. The team had to suspend Cogs or look even worse because they didn't get mad at him for using the N-word. Cooper is an example of this. Also the team did Incognito a favor by suspending him as it brings the NFLPA in to defend his rights as well. We haven't seen Richie get a lawyer as of yet. Only Martin. His family is looking for a fight not resolution.

 

[Canadi-Phin]

One option we might consider is that Martin might actually be suffering from mental illness. There are quite a few serious mental illnesses that present themselves in the mid-20's. I struggle with the idea that he is somehow soft (whatever that means) this man started 3 years at Left Tackle for Stanford guarding Andrew Luck. He then immediately starts in the NFL at right tackle then is moved to left tackle. For me its hard to see how fans think a guy goes from a starting NFL lineman to a "nancy boy". Would it make a difference to fans to find out Martin has been diagnosed with something serious?

I just don't think we know the facts yet and truthfully are we entitled to all the facts immediately?

We are defintely not entitled to the facts but people making judgements immediately without all the info is very dangerous. I've beeing saying this from day one. We have to let the entire investigation go through and see what is actually going on.

 

[Shouright]

No I ABSOLUTELY get it... But the issue of cause has been established and these VM's/Texts have been submitted as EVIDENCE of a history of abuse. Martin is under no obligation to explain word for word what he finds offensive (at least not to us) as both the Dolphins and the League have agreed with him.

Listen I'm not trying to be an ass nor am I trying to get overly emotional... Seems to be enough emotion coursing through these threads last few days... But I just think that everyone has conceded that MArtin left because of 'abusive behavior' and Incognito's suspension was a result of that.

Not necessarily. The team has suspended Incognito (I suspect) due to his use of the 'N' word, and the league is investigating the overall issue. Nobody has yet determined exactly why, via a formal investigatory procedure, Martin left the team.

Martin may be under no obligation to explain anything about why he left the team, but should he choose not to during the investigation, the other information available in the case, much of which looks to support Incognito, will be weighted that much more heavily by the NFL (and probably the team, as well), which will likely result in diminished negative consequences for him in the end.

People (media and fans) may have initially conceded that Martin left the team because of Incognito's behavior, but there is a formal investigation to ensue, and that will tell the final tale, while being based on much more information than the initial impression and concession.

 

[Fish-Head]

Wait your calling for people to not railroad Martin or take Richie's side but it was oky for everyont to take Martin's side witha transcript of the message with the N-word, with no context? That equally sounds real fair. Credible grievance?? Seriously? If Richie is joking in his text does that mean he actually wasn't threatening Martin's mom or his mouth? If he used the N-word as a term of endearment regardless of what you think of the word, is his grievance still credible?

Both sides have done tons of speculation. Until the voicemail is heard by everyone will we be able to put it into context. In fairness to the Lawyer arguments, why does he need one? He only needs to go to the union to have a solution worked out for him. Instead his family has decided to get outside counsel. Does none of this seem just a little strange to you? Your just taking one friend calling another friend a bad word as the silver bullet? I think your stretching it as much as anyone on the Cogs side of things.

You are doing the same thing in Martin's defense as others are doing in Cogs defense.

I don't even know where to begin... I was illustrating and providing examples of how it happens on both sides... Unreal.

Look if you have ANY CONCERN as to who is being 'railroaded' then take a look at the first 20 or so threads in the forum... The Incognito machine is on perpetual SPIN cycle.