Merged: Rick Spielman is a GENIUS....../Rick Spielman Thread

[PhinBeck]

Booker may or may not have gooten a 1st, but if you drafted a receiver in teh first that gave you Bookers production would he be a bust? He has produced and we are lucky we got him. Would you get a 1st for Davis? NO, TO didnt warrant a 1st, but knowing his production, would you draft him in the first?

 

[davster82]

I guess I'm public enemy No. 1 here.

Good.

Someone needs to open the pollyanna eyes around here.

You sucked at the time he said it. Please don't take that personally.

 

[Justasportsfan]

No obviously you are. Look at your post I was responding to. You state questions about the dolphins that need to be answered, I basicall came back with that is a no sh*t post. Everything both teams have done are still questions whether you approve of them or not. You stated the obvious about our team, I stated the obvious about yours.

To make it clear, knock the moves we made all you want, it isnt like your team is free of concern as well. GET IT?

I was addressing Sections post which was about the fins. Nothing to do with the bills. Hellooooo!

 

[PhinBeck]

Consensus among the blind? Miami could trot out Blair Thomas and there would be some here that would be singing his praises.

Sorry, but getting the best deal available does not make one a genius. Even in football sense. A football genius would have gotten the best deal, not just the best available. You could have gotten the best available.


Flawed? How? He has been with the team for 2 years and this year they trade up to get Jackson. Once Jackson was drafted Gordon became No. 3. There is not a doubt there.

Also it tells me St. Louis did have some concerns about him whether it be ability or health.

Also what does him being drafted in the 3rd round have to do with anything?



IF? So you do not know for sure. Dang. I thought Miami won the Super Bowl since you said they got a higher pick now in the 3rd. You were just assuming Miami will finish better than the Bears. This is the NFL. You never know how teams will finish except in Miami.


I don't recall Owens, Brunell or even Mixon making the PB. Armstrong was a former 1st round pick. He had talent.



Bold Prediction. He won't. He will get hurt and be average before that.



Nope, just pratical.

Dphins, man I respect you out of most naysayers because you can actually read and interpret another point of view.

My exceptions to your post here

1 GMs will not always get the best deal, the best deal we could do was Ogun for Moss and LT that would have been an awesome deal, but how likely? Not a chance in HeII. The best deal is in the eye of the beholder. Gordon and Booker is considered a good trade. Remember, the criticism of teh booker deal was not that Booker was not the quality, that it was wasted because no back and a new o-line, qb wouldnt be able to get him teh ball so we should have stayed with all defense. Not Booker was enough value. Gordon has teh size and ability and is young. He came from ND State, so that hurt his value in teh draft. Gordon was the level of back you could expect to get along with a wr for Wale. You will not take your fantasy rankings and get the top wr and top rb for Wale.

2. they drafted Jackson because they were unaware of Gordons injury, check teh date of the article where Martz apologized to Gordon for calling him soft, it was before teh trade talk. Martz was skeptical of Lamar cause he complained of pain and at first nothing was found. Since teh surgery, he has looked great in practice and impressed Martz in the last preseason game cause of the toughness he showed. There are reasons why fans and media in ST Louis are peeved. Jackson is a great back, would have loved to get him, but we had no chance for a third. Atrain aint worth more than a third and Chicago balked at a third. Remember players in the doghouse arent counted on and thus a replacement is sought , ---->hence S Jackson. Gordon is out of teh doghouse and if you remember before teh injury mix up Martz loved the kid.

3. Por bowl as a deciding factor? Kordell went to 2 pro bowls, I bet we could get him cheap. Point is Wale was better than Owens Bromell and Mixon, no doubt, but with JT on teh other side, we have enough talent with D-Bo and JayWIL to help make up for teh loss. Our secondary is also deeper that will help teh d-line against the pass as well. The point is Bromell, Mixon and Owens had success here.

 

[Dbergan]

I guess I'm public enemy No. 1 here.

Good.

Someone needs to open the pollyanna eyes around here.

Well.....what ever Dphins. Bottom line to all this is that Rick is pretty much kickin' a** and taking names ref GM duties. One could argue all day long about whether our guy was good or lucky, but I couldn't really care.

Think about this, in this horrid off season, other then RS, what else can you name that really gets you excited about our phins? I think Wayne hit a home run w/ his selection for GM. RS has made RELIABLE personnel decisions at every level, regardless if the rookies or AJ start right now...I dont think anyone would argue that. Maybe he paid a bit too much here or there...but he is making GOOD GM decisions. So...he is a genious to me... :evil:

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I guess I'm public enemy No. 1 here.

Good.

Someone needs to open the pollyanna eyes around here.

Not to me you're not. I believe that you set a very good example of how to be critical and fair at the same time. We have disagreed on a few points, but you are far from the extreme.

In general, I agree that the Booker/Gordon combo is slightly less potential value than a 1st/3rd, but they are also more proven commodities. Most GMs would not trade Booker for a 1st because they believe that they can turn a 1st round pick into someone truely special. Obviously they are wrong a good % of the time. As an example, in the year that the Bears drafted Booker in the 3rd round, they also drafted Cade McNown in the 1st. Marty Booker was their best pick that year, with the possible exception of Rosevelt Colvin. Marty Booker may have been the 2nd best WR drafted that year (behind Torry Holt who went 6th overall). The only other WR drafted that year that may ultimately turn out better is, oddly enough, David Boston.

I believe that Booker/Gordon, an upgrade in the 3rd round (hopefully), and a big cost savings represents very good value for Ogun.

The team needs to shift a bigger portion of its payroll to the offensive side. The Ogun trade accomplished just that.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

claim[/b] to be a Dolphins fan too.

Just a ridiculous post......

 

[Dphins4me]

Booker may or may not have gooten a 1st, but if you drafted a receiver in teh first that gave you Bookers production would he be a bust?

Nope.

He has produced and we are lucky we got him. Would you get a 1st for Davis? NO, TO didnt warrant a 1st, but knowing his production, would you draft him in the first?

Yes.

 

[Section126]

Of course they were in the top 20. Anyone that signs a deal slightly above the minimum covers that.

TOP 20%.........which puts them in the top 15 players paid at their position.

In 2002, there was over 150 players in the NFL that were listed as DE's.....

 

[Dphins4me]

Well.....what ever Dphins. Bottom line to all this is that Rick is pretty much kickin' a** and taking names ref GM duties. One could argue all day long about whether our guy was good or lucky, but I couldn't really care.:

First off I want to see these guys perform before I will say RS kicked arse this offseason. RS only is as good as the players he brought in perform.
Some of you guys are all of McIntosh like stink on sh-t. When he is injury prone and played on a line worse than Miami's last year. Funny no one signed the players Miami let go, but yet Miami signed the only great OL in SD last year. This is what I meant when I said pollyannas around here.

Think about this, in this horrid off season, other then RS, what else can you name that really gets you excited about our phins? I think Wayne hit a home run w/ his selection for GM. RS has made RELIABLE personnel decisions at every level, regardless if the rookies or AJ start right now...I dont think anyone would argue that. Maybe he paid a bit too much here or there...but he is making GOOD GM decisions. So...he is a genious to me... :evil:

If that is your definition of genius then fine. Mine is a little higher. Sect said RS was a genius because he got the best deal available. That simply confuses me since it was an available deal. To me a football genius would have gotten Davenport from GB, not a 3rd string back.

 

[PhinBeck]

First off I want to see these guys perform before I will say RS kicked arse this offseason. RS only is as good as the players he brought in perform.
Some of you guys are all of McIntosh like stink on sh-t. When he is injury prone and played on a line worse than Miami's last year. Funny no one signed the players Miami let go, but yet Miami signed the only great OL in SD last year. This is what I meant when I said pollyannas around here.


If that is your definition of genius then fine. Mine is a little higher. Sect said RS was a genius because he got the best deal available. That simply confuses me since it was an available deal. To me a football genius would have gotten Davenport from GB, not a 3rd string back.

See my point is, he went after Davenport, they wouldnt trade him. You cant say Rick did poorly because he didnt get Najeh for a third, if GB wouldnt do the deal. If he overpaid and got Najeh, how many people would have yelled like they are about the AJ deal. First they say we overpay and then say we should have done more. Flip-flop. Anywayit all boils down to being skeptical or optimistic. I am guardedly optimistic. Just because I like what Rick has done, doesnt mean I think teh season will be successful. I hope it is. I like the fact that Rick was determined, steadfast in his approach. Every GM has issues to deal with, Rick had more than the norm, I think we would agree on that. It is not that the moves are guarentees, it is that they brought potential that has teh chance to set up the tem for the next few years. Noone can guarentee success, it is teh fact that Rick has put us in a position where success is now possible.

 

[Dphins4me]

Dphins, man I respect you out of most naysayers because you can actually read and interpret another point of view.

Thanks, I think :)

1 GMs will not always get the best deal, the best deal we could do was Ogun for Moss and LT that would have been an awesome deal, but how likely? Not a chance in HeII. The best deal is in the eye of the beholder. Gordon and Booker is considered a good trade. Remember, the criticism of teh booker deal was not that Booker was not the quality, that it was wasted because no back and a new o-line, qb wouldnt be able to get him teh ball so we should have stayed with all defense. Not Booker was enough value. Gordon has teh size and ability and is young. He came from ND State, so that hurt his value in teh draft. Gordon was the level of back you could expect to get along with a wr for Wale. You will not take your fantasy rankings and get the top wr and top rb for Wale.

Please do not take what I said the wrong way. I like the Gordon deal. I just have to I guess speak up when someone wants to lay a genius tag on RS for it. OGun for Booker/Gordon is a fine deal for everything considered. But lets be honest. Booker is a FORMER PB player and Gordon is a FORMER 2nd string back. Sure there were reasons he was demoted. Jackson was too good to pass up at that point of the draft, but Gordon was still knocked down the charts and was listed as a 3rd stringer just as AJ was. Others reasons played a part, but the simple fact they both were listed as 3rd string players.

2. they drafted Jackson because they were unaware of Gordons injury, check teh date of the article where Martz apologized to Gordon for calling him soft, it was before teh trade talk. Martz was skeptical of Lamar cause he complained of pain and at first nothing was found. Since teh surgery, he has looked great in practice and impressed Martz in the last preseason game cause of the toughness he showed. There are reasons why fans and media in ST Louis are peeved. Jackson is a great back, would have loved to get him, but we had no chance for a third. Atrain aint worth more than a third and Chicago balked at a third. Remember players in the doghouse arent counted on and thus a replacement is sought , ---->hence S Jackson. Gordon is out of teh doghouse and if you remember before teh injury mix up Martz loved the kid..

My post was not suppose to be a knock on Gordon. I like him. I like the trade especially considering Miami was over a barrell. My reply was based on RS being a genius for the trades. He did good for himself, but come on Genius? For getting a former PB player and a 3rd string back.

3. Por bowl as a deciding factor? Kordell went to 2 pro bowls, I bet we could get him cheap.

Everyone wants to keep hanging their hat on Booker making it to the PB. Its not like he made it last year. It was '02 when he did. I know last year he was hurt, but there is a difference between current and former.

Point is Wale was better than Owens Bromell and Mixon, no doubt, but with JT on teh other side, we have enough talent with D-Bo and JayWIL to help make up for teh loss. Our secondary is also deeper that will help teh d-line against the pass as well. The point is Bromell, Mixon and Owens had success here.

I do believe the sec. had something to do with the sack total. They go hand in hand. Again I'm never knocked the trade to a point of saying RS screwed up. I think RS did a good job considering. If he could have landed Davenport then I might would have said he is a genius.

 

[Dphins4me]

Not to me you're not. I believe that you set a very good example of how to be critical and fair at the same time. We have disagreed on a few points, but you are far from the extreme.

Thank you.

In general, I agree that the Booker/Gordon combo is slightly less potential value than a 1st/3rd, but they are also more proven commodities. Most GMs would not trade Booker for a 1st because they believe that they can turn a 1st round pick into someone truely special. Obviously they are wrong a good % of the time. As an example, in the year that the Bears drafted Booker in the 3rd round, they also drafted Cade McNown in the 1st. Marty Booker was their best pick that year, with the possible exception of Rosevelt Colvin. Marty Booker may have been the 2nd best WR drafted that year (behind Torry Holt who went 6th overall). The only other WR drafted that year that may ultimately turn out better is, oddly enough, David Boston.

I believe that Booker/Gordon, an upgrade in the 3rd round (hopefully), and a big cost savings represents very good value for Ogun.

The team needs to shift a bigger portion of its payroll to the offensive side. The Ogun trade accomplished just that.

Totally agree.

 

[Dphins4me]

See my point is, he went after Davenport, they wouldnt trade him. You cant say Rick did poorly because he didnt get Najeh for a third, if GB wouldnt do the deal. If he overpaid and got Najeh, how many people would have yelled like they are about the AJ deal. First they say we overpay and then say we should have done more. Flip-flop. Anywayit all boils down to being skeptical or optimistic. I am guardedly optimistic. Just because I like what Rick has done, doesnt mean I think teh season will be successful. I hope it is. I like the fact that Rick was determined, steadfast in his approach. Every GM has issues to deal with, Rick had more than the norm, I think we would agree on that. It is not that the moves are guarentees, it is that they brought potential that has teh chance to set up the tem for the next few years. Noone can guarentee success, it is teh fact that Rick has put us in a position where success is now possible.

Not knocking RS for not getting Davenport. He tried. It takes two to make a trade. I was just not agreeing to put a genius label on him for getting Booker/Gordon for OGun.

Its a good deal, but not one that will make people stand up and take notice.

In the end things may be different, but we will have to see how everything plays out.

 

[PhinBeck]

Not knocking RS for not getting Davenport. He tried. It takes two to make a trade. I was just not agreeing to put a genius label on him for getting Booker/Gordon for OGun.

Its a good deal, but not one that will make people stand up and take notice.

In the end things may be different, but we will have to see how everything plays out.

Cant really disagree with that. I am just happy with Rick to this point, genius? We will see.