Miami Dolphins: Stop worrying about the guards

[NY8123]

Pouncey is never going to make a full season again. I just don't see it happening and frankly I'm worried about it.

They need to sign someone for depth at center and I'm not as worried about the guards as I am Pouncey.

 

[Dajesus]

Pouncey is never going to make a full season again. I just don't see it happening and frankly I'm worried about it.

They need to sign someone for depth at center and I'm not as worried about the guards as I am Pouncey.

Agree. I think Mangold would be a perfect sign as insurance. If Pouncey doesn't miss any games super. If he does there is a back up and we can move on next year.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

Agree. I think Mangold would be a perfect sign as insurance. If Pouncey doesn't miss any games super. If he does there is a back up and we can move on next year.

Mangold couldn't finish the season last year due to ankle injury and needed surgery. He only brings similar concerns of durability and age.

 

[NY8123]

Agree. I think Mangold would be a perfect sign as insurance. If Pouncey doesn't miss any games super. If he does there is a back up and we can move on next year.

I'd take Mangold but not at his salary he was making. He'd be perfect as a one year stop gap insurance policy. He was set to make 6m in salary and a 2.5m roster bonus.

So at 8.5m no thanks but at something reasonable let's say 5m range for one year. Sure why not.

 

[Dajesus]

Mangold couldn't finish the season last year due to ankle injury and needed surgery. He only brings similar concerns of durability and age.

You aren't signing an all pro in may. He could give 5-8 games if needed at a much higher level than Ubrick or Steen. Being so late he would probably sign for 1 million with a chance to earn more with incentives.

I would love to be able to fool my self in to thinking Pouncey can return this season, as he is still dominating when on the field, but I think 5-10 games is the best we can hope for from him.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

You aren't signing an all pro in may. He could give 5-8 games if needed at a much higher level than Ubrick or Steen. Being so late he would probably sign for 1 million with a chance to earn more with incentives.

I would love to be able to fool my self in to thinking Pouncey can return this season, as he is still dominating when on the field, but I think 5-10 games is the best we can hope for from him.

I'm not counting on Pouncey at all, but camaraderie and continuity are extremely important on the o-line and Mangold doesn't bring that either. I'd rather gun for a slightly less talented young player that ensures those factors. Steen is a candidate for that role even though he is limited athletically.

 

[Digital]

It was much better than ok. We gave up 13 sacks in the last 11 games. 17 sacks in the first 5 games. Even both together 17 qbs were sacked more than Ryan. If we look at the last 11 games our o line was elite in pass protection.

We have no idea what Isaac is going to be. Playing for Utah is no indication of what he will be. Hopefully he is lights out and topples Larsen or Bushrod, but you can't count on it.

That statistic takes on more meaning if you look at the average time Tannehill held onto the ball. He got the ball out of his hands very quickly, which helps the OL immensely. I'm not trying to undermine the pass protection, which definitely improved. But we ran many more screens and predominantly short passes so Tannehill could get the ball out quickly. While we did take a good amount of deep throws, I didn't see a ton of intermediate throws.

Like I said, the pass protection was OK. Viewing the games, I'm not going to agree with you that it was good. This may be one where we are best off agreeing to disagree. You've made some good points.

 

[ckparrothead]

I don't particularly like what's happened at the guard/center spots. That doesn't mean I'm all about paying guys $10 million a year as free agents, but even so.

The whole Jermon Bushrod graded as our second best OL thing is a total joke. It was lawyering at its absolute finest. Yes I'm quite sure Bushrod may have had the 2nd fewest mental or technical mistakes. But any grading system that says he turned in a better performance than Mike Pouncey, Ja'Wuan James, Laremy Tunsil, or Branden Albert, needs to be ripped up and thrown in the trash.

That's what bugs me about the OL plans this off season. When I see things like that, I sense delusion.

 

[LDaniel7]

That's what bugs me about the OL plans this off season. When I see things like that, I sense delusion.

Delusion on the OL has been an epidemic in Miami for a long time.

RT is big-time lucky that he's only had his ACL and MCL partially snapped. And his head still in one piece.

Most QBs would be broken -- mentally and physically -- by now.

Good teams are strong up the middle. On D and O. Miami has been perennially weak on both.

And every off-season is the same: delusional smoke and mirrors thinking that is based on Unicorns like Pouncey (A very healthy mythical beast) and Leprechauns like Bushrod.

LD

 

[Dajesus]

That statistic takes on more meaning if you look at the average time Tannehill held onto the ball. He got the ball out of his hands very quickly, which helps the OL immensely. I'm not trying to undermine the pass protection, which definitely improved. But we ran many more screens and predominantly short passes so Tannehill could get the ball out quickly. While we did take a good amount of deep throws, I didn't see a ton of intermediate throws.

Like I said, the pass protection was OK. Viewing the games, I'm not going to agree with you that it was good. This may be one where we are best off agreeing to disagree. You've made some good points.

It's not an opinion the job the o line did in pass blocking was phenomenal after we cut Turner and Thomas. If you start week 6-17 no o line in the NFL gave up fewer sacks than the Miami Dolphins. Yes, even Tom Brady was sacked more times in the time period. Matt Moore was sacked only 1 times in the three games he started. For the line to hold up for 2nd string qb makes it so much more impressive. To give the line more credit 6 of 13 sacks Miami allowed from week 6-17 were in the LA and San Fran games. If you remember Albert missed most of the LA game and the San Fran game, and Tunsil missed the San Fran game, and of course Pouncey was out as well.

On the other hand Ryan had his career high in ypa, and was on pace to set a career high in 40+ yard passes as he had 11 in 13 starts while his career best 13 in 16 games. Matt Moore didn't get rid of the ball quickly. He had an 8.2 ypa, 9 passes over 20 yards and 4 over 40 completed.

The run blocking was not elite and had so much room for growth, but if the oline can match what they did last year in pass blocking they will be in elite status.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

Pass blocking was phenomenal? Elite? Eek.

We significantly improved from years past, but our outside screen game was a major factor in reducing the amount of sacks and taking pressure off pass pro. Sack numbers are more a reflection of that than the actual protection itself.

 

[NY8123]

It's not an opinion the job the o line did in pass blocking was phenomenal after we cut Turner and Thomas. If you start week 6-17 no o line in the NFL gave up fewer sacks than the Miami Dolphins. Yes, even Tom Brady was sacked more times in the time period. Matt Moore was sacked only 1 times in the three games he started. For the line to hold up for 2nd string qb makes it so much more impressive. To give the line more credit 6 of 13 sacks Miami allowed from week 6-17 were in the LA and San Fran games. If you remember Albert missed most of the LA game and the San Fran game, and Tunsil missed the San Fran game, and of course Pouncey was out as well.

On the other hand Ryan had his career high in ypa, and was on pace to set a career high in 40+ yard passes as he had 11 in 13 starts while his career best 13 in 16 games. Matt Moore didn't get rid of the ball quickly. He had an 8.2 ypa, 9 passes over 20 yards and 4 over 40 completed.

The run blocking was not elite and had so much room for growth, but if the oline can match what they did last year in pass blocking they will be in elite status.

This is why I wasn't worried about Guards as much as I was getting a backup center.

Tunsil should be just fine at LT. James came on and I really like Asiata and I think he will have a legitimate chance to start this year.

Pouncey is the question mark. Is he healthy? Idk but based on those photos of him a month ago walking with a cane it makes you ask will he be ready? I liked Steen and thought he might end up a good center but he isn't more than a backup and isn't on Pouncey's level when Pouncey is healthy.

We have three guys billed on the roster right now as a G/C and I'm guessing Miami is going to need someone to play center.

 

[Digital]

It's not an opinion the job the o line did in pass blocking was phenomenal after we cut Turner and Thomas. If you start week 6-17 no o line in the NFL gave up fewer sacks than the Miami Dolphins. Yes, even Tom Brady was sacked more times in the time period. Matt Moore was sacked only 1 times in the three games he started. For the line to hold up for 2nd string qb makes it so much more impressive. To give the line more credit 6 of 13 sacks Miami allowed from week 6-17 were in the LA and San Fran games. If you remember Albert missed most of the LA game and the San Fran game, and Tunsil missed the San Fran game, and of course Pouncey was out as well.

On the other hand Ryan had his career high in ypa, and was on pace to set a career high in 40+ yard passes as he had 11 in 13 starts while his career best 13 in 16 games. Matt Moore didn't get rid of the ball quickly. He had an 8.2 ypa, 9 passes over 20 yards and 4 over 40 completed.

The run blocking was not elite and had so much room for growth, but if the oline can match what they did last year in pass blocking they will be in elite status.

It most certainly IS an opinion.

I gave you the reasons why those statistics are mitigated. I agreed that it was a much appreciated improvement.

But you're not crediting Tannehill whatsoever for his part in taking a shot and getting rid of the ball, or escaping the rush, or releasing the ball quickly or throwing the ball away. Look, statistics are useful. But in a game as full of inputs as football, they are more general indicators than isolated proof. Your opinion differs from mine.

We both agree that the offensive line improved. I think Gase had something to do with that through his playcalling and emphasis on getting the ball out quicker ... you ignore that. I think Tannehill's growth also had something to do with that, you do not. I think having a run game helped temper the pass rush at time, you fail to address that. I think having Stills force a safety out of the box matters, you just think that it's all about one statistic. Good luck with that.

 

[Dajesus]

It most certainly IS an opinion.

I gave you the reasons why those statistics are mitigated. I agreed that it was a much appreciated improvement.

But you're not crediting Tannehill whatsoever for his part in taking a shot and getting rid of the ball, or escaping the rush, or releasing the ball quickly or throwing the ball away. Look, statistics are useful. But in a game as full of inputs as football, they are more general indicators than isolated proof. Your opinion differs from mine.

We both agree that the offensive line improved. I think Gase had something to do with that through his playcalling and emphasis on getting the ball out quicker ... you ignore that. I think Tannehill's growth also had something to do with that, you do not. I think having a run game helped temper the pass rush at time, you fail to address that. I think having Stills force a safety out of the box matters, you just think that it's all about one statistic. Good luck with that.

I gave more than one stat, but if you want another one the Dolphins gave up the 15th most QB hits in the NFL, but again it's completely bloated by the performance in the first 5 games. The final 11 games they were top 3 in hits allowed on the qb. Another stat the help up when Matt Moore was in there. Just like sacks Matt Moore averaged less hits against than Ryan did, so to assume Ryan eludeding pressure was the reason for this vast improvement in sacks allowed and qb hits allowed is a bit foolish. The other reason I have a hard time crediting Ryan with this turn around is he got sacked 17x in the first 5 games. If he was a whiz at eluding pressure and getting rid of the ball so quick as you are claiming that would not have happened. What did chamge was 2 o line man cut cut, and others got healthy, and we started protecting the qb. When we started protecting the qb we started winning.

I totally agree Gase, Ryan, and Jay, all had huge parts in a drastic turn around in pass protection. The bottom line is though if you are talking about pass protection, there are a few facts that you can look at to evaluate the oline. Those facts are sacks allowed, qb pleasures, and qb hits. The final 11 games our oline were the best or among the best in all of those measurable, and they deserve credit for that. The two biggest turn arounds of 2016 was Jay and our pass protection. In the cincy and and Tenn game Ryan was getting hit every drop back. After the Tenn game Ryan was given time and he started to look like the qb we all hoped he would be since he was drafted.

 

[Digital]

I gave more than one stat, but if you want another one the Dolphins gave up the 15th most QB hits in the NFL, but again it's completely bloated by the performance in the first 5 games. The final 11 games they were top 3 in hits allowed on the qb. Another stat the help up when Matt Moore was in there. Just like sacks Matt Moore averaged less hits against than Ryan did, so to assume Ryan eludeding pressure was the reason for this vast improvement in sacks allowed and qb hits allowed is a bit foolish. The other reason I have a hard time crediting Ryan with this turn around is he got sacked 17x in the first 5 games. If he was a whiz at eluding pressure and getting rid of the ball so quick as you are claiming that would not have happened. What did chamge was 2 o line man cut cut, and others got healthy, and we started protecting the qb. When we started protecting the qb we started winning.

I totally agree Gase, Ryan, and Jay, all had huge parts in a drastic turn around in pass protection. The bottom line is though if you are talking about pass protection, there are a few facts that you can look at to evaluate the oline. Those facts are sacks allowed, qb pleasures, and qb hits. The final 11 games our oline were the best or among the best in all of those measurable, and they deserve credit for that. The two biggest turn arounds of 2016 was Jay and our pass protection. In the cincy and and Tenn game Ryan was getting hit every drop back. After the Tenn game Ryan was given time and he started to look like the qb we all hoped he would be since he was drafted.

There's a lot we agree on, such as the reality that the first 5 games were a learning curve and the remaining 11 games are a much better indicator. But at no time did I "assume Ryan eluding pressure was the reason for this vast improvement in sacks allowed and qb hits allowed" as you suggest. I always said that it was part of the reason why these stats in isolation were not 100% a reflection of the OL. I also explained that Gase's play calling, in particular the short passes with a high number of screens and the focus on getting the ball out quicker, were a significant part of it too. So was the fact that we manufactured a run game, as well as having an effective deep threat in Stills given teeth by hitting the deep ball. IMHO, there is no single one "the reason" explanation ... that's my entire point.

We are in agreement that this OL was much improved over Tannehill's previous disastrous seasons. He was the most sacked QB ever for a QB's first 3 years. I can tell you there was no more vocal critic than me of Dallas Thomas, Jamil Douglas and to a certain extent Billy Turner. I cautioned Turner's lack of technique was dramatic and very possible that he would never get it where it needs to be. I was THE first and most vocal anti-Dallas Thomas voice. I went off on his draft day and led the charge to get that bad player off the roster. I also clashed with people because I was one of the few not sold on Jamil Douglas. So yeah, I was super-happy when Gase cleaned house. But that doesn't mean I'm giving the rest of the OL a free pass. I'll give praise where due ... we improved in pass protection. But calling them elite at pass protection, IMHO, is not accurate. Again ... it's just my opinion, and reasonable minds may differ.