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mike pouncey...panthers game tale of the tape

hoops

hoops

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i've heard many people on here saying that mike pouncey only had an ok game or even a bad game...and thats the exact opposite of what i saw when i rewatched the game tape yesterday...so this morning i decided to key pouncey on every snap in the first half and assign a positive negative type grade...here's how it played out...note pounceys snapping is not a part of this evaluation

i counted 27 pass protection plays of which i had a positive grade on 24...there was many plays where pouncey initially off the snap combo blocked with a guard on a dt and they went nowhere...i counted 1 combo block where pouncey made contact and put the dt on his ***...pouncey shows good feet and lateral maneuverability solid hands sits down and anchors well in pass protection...i saw pouncey at the los with his head up identifying potential blitzers and making line calls...one on one pass pro pounceys man never sniffed henne...pouncey shows excellent awareness and has his head on a swivel at all times identifying the correct guard to help on many plays

i counted only 1 true negative play where pouncey snapped the ball combo blocked the dt with the guard to the right and then failed to get off in time and pickup the delayed blitzing lb up the middle who never showed blitz prior to the snap...he saw it but by the time he did he couldn't get over there and the lb forced henne to leave the pocket...as well as colombo letting an inside dt just beeline to the qb while he blocked no one...but thats another deal there

in 19 run blocking plays i counted 6 outright positive win plays 2 outright moved the guy off the ball and out of the hole the back eventually ran thru for solid yardage plays 2 plays where pouncey moved to the 2nd level nicely and made contact with a lb...pretty obvious this kid can get to the 2nd level with ease...by far the most athletic lineman we had in this game

now the negative plays...on the initial goalline stand by the panthers i counted 3 of those 4 plays as negative plays by pouncey...its pretty obvious to me that pouncey on the goalline after snapping the ball fires off too high and lets the dt have all the leverage...he needs to fire off the ball low and then he won't get stood up so much in short yardage...i counted 1 other negative play for pouncey where he initially had solid contact with fua didn't really move him but solid contact but fua got off and got in on the play but bush carried him for a few yards after contact...pouncey i think even on that play smacked his hands together knowing that his man blew that play up

now lets also keep in mind that pouncey didn't get a offseason of ota's or even nfl weight room work due to the lockout...he needs to get stronger and play with better technique on the goalline but there's no reason to think this kid can't become one hell of an interior olineman in time...yes i still say he's a better left guard fit cause he's a terrific move player than center but this kid graded out very well in this game and with time and reps and work on some things from a technique standpoint and added strength in an nfl offseason program there's no reason to think he can't play a heck of a center in our system...i think he's got more upside than ryan kalil who the panthers just made the highest paid center in football
 
b/t if anyone wants me to key a player from the panthers game like this just let me know...i'll be happy to do it...when i have some time today...
 
Yea, Pouncey was outstandinng . . . considering he is a rookie and the limited TC. I wanna put him next to Jake Long man. That leftside could be historic . . . better than Jones/Hutchinson if both guys reach their full potential.
 
Kdawg954 said:
Yea, Pouncey was outstandinng . . . considering he is a rookie and the limited TC. I wanna put him next to Jake Long man. That leftside could be historic . . . better than Jones/Hutchinson if both guys reach their full potential.
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Isn't it scary to think (in a good way) that Jake Long might not have reached his full potential yet?
 
Nice write-up hoos! Since you've asked, Maybe something similar with Odrick would be appreciated... I saw the game but I have no way of re-watching it to focus on individual players...
 
Nice job, hoops. I agree, as usual. But it must be said that Sione Fua is not a player that really tests Pouncey at the POA. We won't really see where he's at until we face Vince Wilfork and the Patriots (our next two preseason opponents -- Dallas and Tampa Bay -- favor athleticism over strength on their defensive lines). Hopefully Pouncey's been taking notes on how to deal with Paul Soliai, because the early reports in camp were that Soliai had Pouncey on skates at times out there.
 
Mr. Magoo said:
Nice job, hoops. I agree, as usual. But it must be said that Sione Fua is not a player that really tests Pouncey at the POA. We won't really see where he's at until we face Vince Wilfork and the Patriots (our next two preseason opponents -- Dallas and Tampa Bay -- favor athleticism over strength on their defensive lines). Hopefully Pouncey's been taking notes on how to deal with Paul Soliai, because the early reports in camp were that Soliai had Pouncey on skates at times out there.
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Soliai is coming into his own. that's not the same player as two years ago. he's a legit NFL NT now. i'd expect a rookie C with little work in a pro environment under his belt to struggle against Soliai.
 
This is not meant to be offensive to anyone but I think this might be an issue of low standards.

24 of 27 pass plays is 89%. 15 of 19 run plays is 79%. Altogether that's 85%. That's not really that great, especially not against Sione Fua the rookie 3rd rounder.

The most concerning things were:

A) The consistency of his failures in certain situations (e.g. goal line), and
B) The consistency with which his best plays and best attributes (getting out into space) went unseen and/or unrewarded due to the insufficient blocking around him.

We're not just grading on the basis of "for a rookie" here. He's a starter. He's the 1st round pick. He's the guy that the Dolphins took at #15 overall when they could have taken any number of other guys, such as Mark Ingram. That forces you to assess his impact on the team relative to others. I raised the question when he was drafted...how often is he going to be show great things that Joe Berger did not or could not show, that ALSO impact the success of a play? In other words, how much impact is he going to have above a Joe Berger? Everyone just naturally assumes the guy is going to be better than Berger, be more impactful. But that's not what I saw the other night. I saw a guy who is better than Berger in space and out in the second level, but whose talents in that area were wasted by bad blocking from his fellow lineman, and I saw a guy who didn't have near the strength at the point of attack that Berger had, especially in those short yardage and red zone plays. So his weaknesses relative to Berger got exposed, while his strengths relative to Berger got drowned.

And that is a concern.
 
ckparrothead said:
This is not meant to be offensive to anyone but I think this might be an issue of low standards.

24 of 27 pass plays is 89%. 15 of 19 run plays is 79%. Altogether that's 85%. That's not really that great, especially not against Sione Fua the rookie 3rd rounder.

The most concerning things were:

A) The consistency of his failures in certain situations (e.g. goal line), and
B) The consistency with which his best plays and best attributes (getting out into space) went unseen and/or unrewarded due to the insufficient blocking around him.

We're not just grading on the basis of "for a rookie" here. He's a starter. He's the 1st round pick. He's the guy that the Dolphins took at #15 overall when they could have taken any number of other guys, such as Mark Ingram. That forces you to assess his impact on the team relative to others. I raised the question when he was drafted...how often is he going to be show great things that Joe Berger did not or could not show, that ALSO impact the success of a play? In other words, how much impact is he going to have above a Joe Berger? Everyone just naturally assumes the guy is going to be better than Berger, be more impactful. But that's not what I saw the other night. I saw a guy who is better than Berger in space and out in the second level, but whose talents in that area were wasted by bad blocking from his fellow lineman, and I saw a guy who didn't have near the strength at the point of attack that Berger had, especially in those short yardage and red zone plays. So his weaknesses relative to Berger got exposed, while his strengths relative to Berger got drowned.

And that is a concern.
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I don't think the standards are low at all, I think people realize its the 2nd preseason game of a shortened camp. The guy is playing arguably the most important position on the OLine and he is moving guys and paving lanes for the inside run game, which was nonexistant last year. Being better than Joe Berger should definitely not be the goal, I want him better than his brother.

I do think the guy would be better at LG, where his ability to move would be a huge asset and get a Center who can hold up at the POA and has more experience against those elite NT's (The Wilforks and the Ngatas). We are lucky to have a great NT in Paul Soliai on the team and though big Paul was whipping him early, Pouncey has started to get better against him.

Mike Pouncey was not Jake Long in a sense that Jake was more polished as a prospect, yet still improved over the last few years . . . Pouncey has less polish, especially as a C, but I think people see the athleticism, see the ability, see the bloodlines and see the ceiling . . . and are excited that this guy is already doing things to help an interior OLine that was just horrid last season.

I honestly think you are grading him too harshly, fair or unfair, expecting perfection probably isn't an ideal evaluation. Nobody is saying he was perfect, we just saw "impact" plays from him, which we didn't see the entire season last year from the Center position. So it is a step in the right direction and people see how TERRIBLE we were at that position last year. He still has a while to go, but I like what I saw on Friday, and he definitely showed improvement from week 1 to week 2.

There is nothing wrong with people having a little excitement from a pick that honestly wasn't a "loveable" choice by many. The guy played good, real good.
 
I really haven't made my mind up yet on Pouncey. The Panthers' DL was terrible this last game, so it is hard to judge Pouncey from that game. In any case, he is not my primary concern right now. The right side of the line and Incognito are still bigger issues to me.
 
ckparrothead said:
This is not meant to be offensive to anyone but I think this might be an issue of low standards.

24 of 27 pass plays is 89%. 15 of 19 run plays is 79%. Altogether that's 85%. That's not really that great, especially not against Sione Fua the rookie 3rd rounder.

The most concerning things were:

A) The consistency of his failures in certain situations (e.g. goal line), and
B) The consistency with which his best plays and best attributes (getting out into space) went unseen and/or unrewarded due to the insufficient blocking around him.

We're not just grading on the basis of "for a rookie" here. He's a starter. He's the 1st round pick. He's the guy that the Dolphins took at #15 overall when they could have taken any number of other guys, such as Mark Ingram. That forces you to assess his impact on the team relative to others. I raised the question when he was drafted...how often is he going to be show great things that Joe Berger did not or could not show, that ALSO impact the success of a play? In other words, how much impact is he going to have above a Joe Berger? Everyone just naturally assumes the guy is going to be better than Berger, be more impactful. But that's not what I saw the other night. I saw a guy who is better than Berger in space and out in the second level, but whose talents in that area were wasted by bad blocking from his fellow lineman, and I saw a guy who didn't have near the strength at the point of attack that Berger had, especially in those short yardage and red zone plays. So his weaknesses relative to Berger got exposed, while his strengths relative to Berger got drowned.

And that is a concern.
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I understand what you're saying. "For a rookie", "for a first year starter," "for a first year player" are terms often used as crutches to explain what is more often simple poor play or lack of talent. Once you're starting, you have to perform. Otherwise you shouldn't be starting. With that being said, however, I do think it's important to view what Pouncey's doing in context, and I do basically agree with hoops' evaluation of his play. I was pleased with it, personally, even without the caveats.

One thing I would specifically disagree with is drawing a straight line between what Pouncey is doing and the success of the play. When I evaluate someone, anyway, I'm looking at their individual contribution. I understand that "value" -- relative to the draft -- is an important way to grade players. Players that impact the game less on an individual basis (safeties, interior offensive linemen) are graded lower and taken later. I agree with that, and it's why I was not a fan of the idea of the Pouncey pick when the notion was raised and was less than pleased when he was actually selected.

But given that we're passed the draft process I'm just going to look at what Pouncey's doing and ignore whether Vernon Carey is missing a cut block in space or whether Daniel Thomas is running up the back of his linemen. That's really the only fair way to evaluate him now, in my view.
 
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Mr. Magoo said:
I understand what you're saying. "For a rookie", "for a first year starter," "for a first year player" are terms often used as crutches to explain what is more often simple poor play or lack of talent. Once you're starting, you have to perform. Otherwise you shouldn't be starting. With that being said, however, I do think it's important to view what Pouncey's doing in context, and I do basically agree with hoops' evaluation of his play. I was pleased with it, personally, even without the caveats.

One thing I would specifically disagree with is drawing a straight line between what Pouncey is doing and the success of the play. When I evaluate someone, anyway, I'm looking at their individual contribution. I understand that "value" -- relative to the draft -- is an important way to grade players. Players that impact the game less on an individual basis (safeties, interior offensive linemen) are graded lower and taken later. I agree with that, and it's why I was not a fan of the idea of the Pouncey pick when the notion was raised and was less than pleased when he was actually selected.

But given that we're passed the draft process I'm just going to look at what Pouncey's doing and ignore whether Vernon Carey is missing a cut block in space or whether Daniel Thomas is running up the back of his linemen. That's really the only fair way to evaluate him now, in my view.
Click to expand...

If what I highlighted above is true, then we're not really disagreeing.
 
ckparrothead said:
This is not meant to be offensive to anyone but I think this might be an issue of low standards.

24 of 27 pass plays is 89%. 15 of 19 run plays is 79%. Altogether that's 85%. That's not really that great, especially not against Sione Fua the rookie 3rd rounder.

The most concerning things were:

A) The consistency of his failures in certain situations (e.g. goal line), and
B) The consistency with which his best plays and best attributes (getting out into space) went unseen and/or unrewarded due to the insufficient blocking around him.

We're not just grading on the basis of "for a rookie" here. He's a starter. He's the 1st round pick. He's the guy that the Dolphins took at #15 overall when they could have taken any number of other guys, such as Mark Ingram. That forces you to assess his impact on the team relative to others. I raised the question when he was drafted...how often is he going to be show great things that Joe Berger did not or could not show, that ALSO impact the success of a play? In other words, how much impact is he going to have above a Joe Berger? Everyone just naturally assumes the guy is going to be better than Berger, be more impactful. But that's not what I saw the other night. I saw a guy who is better than Berger in space and out in the second level, but whose talents in that area were wasted by bad blocking from his fellow lineman, and I saw a guy who didn't have near the strength at the point of attack that Berger had, especially in those short yardage and red zone plays. So his weaknesses relative to Berger got exposed, while his strengths relative to Berger got drowned.

And that is a concern.
Click to expand...

im sorry CK, but you just seem to be on a ryan mallett ireland drafts like a douche agenda lately.

We needed a center. We got one. Thats how I look at it. And all this percentage crap doesnt mean squat to me. Just keep progressing. mistakes are a part of life. learn from them and move on to better things. I have full faith that pouncey can do that. that is what is important.
 
I agree with your assessment hooshoops. This guy will be elite. I love how he'd get in defensive players faces too. He seems like he plays with passion, intensity, and malice, and he talks. But unlike Crowder, which always rubbed me the wrong way, he seems to play BIGGER than he talks. Love it.

Wouldn't it be nice if Henne broke out this year, securing our QB position, allowing us to draft a stud offensive lineman for the right side or an elite athlete at TE? One more YOUNG piece to that right side and we are set for the next 5 years..
 
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