OL Woes-Blame it on JJ ? | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

OL Woes-Blame it on JJ ?

I think the premise of the article -- that Jimmy Johnson was responsible for the Fins' current o-line woes -- is ludicrous because the guy's been gone for several years -- and his drafting philosophy went with him. Even if Wannstadt had been a JJ disciple, and I'm not buying the idea that friendship = disciple, it was Wannstadt and whoever else was in charge of player development the last five or six years who bear major responsibility for the talent that's on the team today -- or missing from it. I think a bigger problem than JJ's philosophy was Wannstadt's willingness to trade draft picks for players (including 2 first rounders for Ricky), leaving the team with fewer opportunities to add more young talent (at considerably cheaper prices).

One of the problems with drafting "great offensive linemen" is that there aren't that many to be had! Think about what NFL teams want in olinemen: big guys (6'4"+, 300+) with the speed and agility to match up with lighter DEs and LBs yet strong enough to knock down DTs. Physically, that's a hard combination to put together. Many college linemen are simply considered "too small" to play in the pros today, although they would have been considered good prospects twenty-five or thirty years ago. This means that sometimes there aren't offensive linemen available who are worth drafting in first or second round.

Plus, many of the big guys coming out of college never learned much technique but relied on their size and strength, and few regularly faced the caliber of DEs that populate most NFL defensive lines. Many colleges will big linemen also tend to emphasize the run. This means that the OL coach has to be a teacher first, and then a coach.

Recognizing that Miami has an ol problem is only the first step in a process that takes years to fix. The Bills also suffered through the miseries of having a porous oline, and it's taken several years just to get to the level it is today -- a decent line but certainly not top notch by a long way. As a unit, it's easily the weakest link on the team. It's not like the Bills haven't "spent" draft choices to bring in OL talent, either: in 2002, the Bills used the 4th overall pick in the draft to take Mike Williams (RT), a kid who just in the second half of last season really started showing his stuff (my opinion: poor coaching in the past hurt Big Mike's progress). On the other hand, even OLmen with modest credentials (Jonas Jennings) are often too costly to keep when they hit the FA market, so it's hard to add top veterans and keep the ones you've got.

Coaching and scouting can go a long way in helping the oline improve. In 2004, the Bills added OL coach Jim McNally (and they have 2 OL coaches in 2005), a respected developer of good lines. Still, it took the Bills line about half a season to "gel", partly due to injuries in training camp that prevented the unit from learning to play as a unit early on. The Bills scouts may also have found the team's future LT to complement Williams: #71 Jason Peters. He was an undrafted FA in 2004 as a TE, but he's been converted to LT, and he's still a work-in-progress, but this kid has the size (6-4, 328), speed, and agility to become a premier LT. He's probably at least a year away, but watch for him on October 9 on special teams. He's a terror!

In rebuilding an offensive line, the operative word is patience because improvement is incremental. The Fish seem to have the right idea in getting a top notch line coach. Now they have to give him some time to make the most out of the talent he's got, and hopefully get him more talent next season.
 
In my opinion JJ is responsible for it all. Marino's retirement. He's the one who groomed Wanny and talked Spiellman and Wayne into hiring Wanny.
 
Well now we can start blaming Saban I guess. Certainly next year.
 
I always thought that you had to have a good OL before you can have a good offense.

As the article says you need at least two very good players to make a decent OL particularly at the tackle positions and at center.Can anyone really say that we have two very good OL at this stage ? I dont think so.

When Houck was first hired I thought that the first thing he would be to upgrade the talent either through the draft or high profile signings.When that didnt happen I started to think that maybe I was wrong.Maybe JJ ,Wanny and now Houck are right in that you dont need top notch talent and that all you needed is good coaching.

Still I think we need at least a couple of studs in there and I hope we address the problem in the draft next year.
 
Kinzua said:
I think the premise of the article -- that Jimmy Johnson was responsible for the Fins' current o-line woes -- is ludicrous because the guy's been gone for several years -- and his drafting philosophy went with him. Even if Wannstadt had been a JJ disciple, and I'm not buying the idea that friendship = disciple, it was Wannstadt and whoever else was in charge of player development the last five or six years who bear major responsibility for the talent that's on the team today -- or missing from it. I think a bigger problem than JJ's philosophy was Wannstadt's willingness to trade draft picks for players (including 2 first rounders for Ricky), leaving the team with fewer opportunities to add more young talent (at considerably cheaper prices).

One of the problems with drafting "great offensive linemen" is that there aren't that many to be had! Think about what NFL teams want in olinemen: big guys (6'4"+, 300+) with the speed and agility to match up with lighter DEs and LBs yet strong enough to knock down DTs. Physically, that's a hard combination to put together. Many college linemen are simply considered "too small" to play in the pros today, although they would have been considered good prospects twenty-five or thirty years ago. This means that sometimes there aren't offensive linemen available who are worth drafting in first or second round.

Plus, many of the big guys coming out of college never learned much technique but relied on their size and strength, and few regularly faced the caliber of DEs that populate most NFL defensive lines. Many colleges will big linemen also tend to emphasize the run. This means that the OL coach has to be a teacher first, and then a coach.

Recognizing that Miami has an ol problem is only the first step in a process that takes years to fix. The Bills also suffered through the miseries of having a porous oline, and it's taken several years just to get to the level it is today -- a decent line but certainly not top notch by a long way. As a unit, it's easily the weakest link on the team. It's not like the Bills haven't "spent" draft choices to bring in OL talent, either: in 2002, the Bills used the 4th overall pick in the draft to take Mike Williams (RT), a kid who just in the second half of last season really started showing his stuff (my opinion: poor coaching in the past hurt Big Mike's progress). On the other hand, even OLmen with modest credentials (Jonas Jennings) are often too costly to keep when they hit the FA market, so it's hard to add top veterans and keep the ones you've got.

Coaching and scouting can go a long way in helping the oline improve. In 2004, the Bills added OL coach Jim McNally (and they have 2 OL coaches in 2005), a respected developer of good lines. Still, it took the Bills line about half a season to "gel", partly due to injuries in training camp that prevented the unit from learning to play as a unit early on. The Bills scouts may also have found the team's future LT to complement Williams: #71 Jason Peters. He was an undrafted FA in 2004 as a TE, but he's been converted to LT, and he's still a work-in-progress, but this kid has the size (6-4, 328), speed, and agility to become a premier LT. He's probably at least a year away, but watch for him on October 9 on special teams. He's a terror!

In rebuilding an offensive line, the operative word is patience because improvement is incremental. The Fish seem to have the right idea in getting a top notch line coach. Now they have to give him some time to make the most out of the talent he's got, and hopefully get him more talent next season.


Like you said getting a good OL coach is mandatory and the Bills line didn't really gel 'til 1/2 way thru the season so as a Phin fan you have to be patient because you're not going to get a KC-like OL in one preseason.
 
FISHFAN44 said:
In my opinion JJ is responsible for it all. Marino's retirement. He's the one who groomed Wanny and talked Spiellman and Wayne into hiring Wanny.

Oh, man does that pain me to see Forsberg in that sweater. Just loved watching that guy play out here in Denver, so many times when he did something and your mouth just dropped in awe.
 
CrunchTime said:
I always thought that you had to have a good OL before you can have a good offense.

As the article says you need at least two very good players to make a decent OL particularly at the tackle positions and at center.Can anyone really say that we have two very good OL at this stage ? I dont think so.

When Houck was first hired I thought that the first thing he would be to upgrade the talent either through the draft or high profile signings.When that didnt happen I started to think that maybe I was wrong.Maybe JJ ,Wanny and now Houck are right in that you dont need top notch talent and that all you needed is good coaching.

Still I think we need at least a couple of studs in there and I hope we address the problem in the draft next year.


And if there is a year to draft a stud O-Lineman it is next draft.

We have:
1. Marcus McNeil Auburn (Ronnie's acquaintence)
2. Jonathan Scott Texas
3. Andrew Whitworth LSU (Saban's acquaintence)
4. D'Brick Ferguson Virginia?
5. and a few others who should warrant a 1st round grade

So if we don't go QB with our 1st rounder a OT is there to be had.
 
Kinzua said:
I think the premise of the article -- that Jimmy Johnson was responsible for the Fins' current o-line woes -- is ludicrous because the guy's been gone for several years -- and his drafting philosophy went with him. Even if Wannstadt had been a JJ disciple, and I'm not buying the idea that friendship = disciple, it was Wannstadt and whoever else was in charge of player development the last five or six years who bear major responsibility for the talent that's on the team today -- or missing from it. I think a bigger problem than JJ's philosophy was Wannstadt's willingness to trade draft picks for players (including 2 first rounders for Ricky), leaving the team with fewer opportunities to add more young talent (at considerably cheaper prices).

One of the problems with drafting "great offensive linemen" is that there aren't that many to be had! Think about what NFL teams want in olinemen: big guys (6'4"+, 300+) with the speed and agility to match up with lighter DEs and LBs yet strong enough to knock down DTs. Physically, that's a hard combination to put together. Many college linemen are simply considered "too small" to play in the pros today, although they would have been considered good prospects twenty-five or thirty years ago. This means that sometimes there aren't offensive linemen available who are worth drafting in first or second round.

Plus, many of the big guys coming out of college never learned much technique but relied on their size and strength, and few regularly faced the caliber of DEs that populate most NFL defensive lines. Many colleges will big linemen also tend to emphasize the run. This means that the OL coach has to be a teacher first, and then a coach.

Recognizing that Miami has an ol problem is only the first step in a process that takes years to fix. The Bills also suffered through the miseries of having a porous oline, and it's taken several years just to get to the level it is today -- a decent line but certainly not top notch by a long way. As a unit, it's easily the weakest link on the team. It's not like the Bills haven't "spent" draft choices to bring in OL talent, either: in 2002, the Bills used the 4th overall pick in the draft to take Mike Williams (RT), a kid who just in the second half of last season really started showing his stuff (my opinion: poor coaching in the past hurt Big Mike's progress). On the other hand, even OLmen with modest credentials (Jonas Jennings) are often too costly to keep when they hit the FA market, so it's hard to add top veterans and keep the ones you've got.

Coaching and scouting can go a long way in helping the oline improve. In 2004, the Bills added OL coach Jim McNally (and they have 2 OL coaches in 2005), a respected developer of good lines. Still, it took the Bills line about half a season to "gel", partly due to injuries in training camp that prevented the unit from learning to play as a unit early on. The Bills scouts may also have found the team's future LT to complement Williams: #71 Jason Peters. He was an undrafted FA in 2004 as a TE, but he's been converted to LT, and he's still a work-in-progress, but this kid has the size (6-4, 328), speed, and agility to become a premier LT. He's probably at least a year away, but watch for him on October 9 on special teams. He's a terror!

In rebuilding an offensive line, the operative word is patience because improvement is incremental. The Fish seem to have the right idea in getting a top notch line coach. Now they have to give him some time to make the most out of the talent he's got, and hopefully get him more talent next season.

good post, I like the bold paragraph, I think the gist of it describes us, this year, pretty good..
 
I don't know if you can blame JJ for the offensive line problems but you can definitely blame him for wasting Marino's talent the moment he arrived. Marino's numbers dropped immediately and its not like we suddenly won more games and got closer to the playoffs because of his philosophy.
 
Lederhosen said:
One thing is for sure, JJ 's o-line draft picks all sucked besides Wade. But despite the fact that JJ did not know how to draft healthy and great offense players (Jabbar? Avery? Green? ) at all, you can not blame him for everything which Wannstedt did or did not. Of course there is no player on which Wannstedt could build a line on, but then it was Wanny 's fault not to get a decent player in the draft instead of hiring awful FA's (Perry), drafting prospects (Smith ) while giving up high picks for them or drafting simply (below) average guys (McKiney, Whitney) in the 3rd round or later.
In the end what killed us what this constant win-now attitude: giving up picks (3rd this year against 2nd next year) and a total lack of 1st rounders.

Still I think JJ is vastly overrated. He picked JZ, Zach, Sam Madison, Surtain, Gardner (great when healthy), but besides those truly amazing players there aren't many to remember. I mean the guy had a zillion of picks but 60% never made it and 25% are not in the NFL anymore (the Mixons, Bromells...).
:yeahthat: One question though, who was making all the offensive picks for JJ back in Dallas? Did Jimmy just lose his offensive talent touch when he came here. Cuz, there were some great picks in the drafts on the offensive side when he was there (Emitt, Moose, Troy, Russell Maryland, to name a few I believe)...Don't tell me Norv was making those picks...He probably was a catalyst for getting Chambers here, I might think...hmmm..
 
JoeRobStad4ever said:
:yeahthat: One question though, who was making all the offensive picks for JJ back in Dallas? Did Jimmy just lose his offensive talent touch when he came here. Cuz, there were some great picks in the drafts on the offensive side when he was there (Emitt, Moose, Troy, Russell Maryland, to name a few I believe)...Don't tell me Norv was making those picks...He probably was a catalyst for getting Chambers here, I might think...hmmm..

yes, no Hershall to trade, a new salary cap, and he was no longer intimate with the college ranks. :( Somewhere I read an article addressing this "advantage" that Buttercup Johnson had and that Saban might have now because he is intimate with todays college ranks. Add to this that Bill Belicheck will no longer be benifiting from Sabans college know how. Good Stuff!:eek:
 
DolphanD said:
And if there is a year to draft a stud O-Lineman it is next draft.

We have:
1. Marcus McNeil Auburn (Ronnie's acquaintence)
2. Jonathan Scott Texas
3. Andrew Whitworth LSU (Saban's acquaintence)
4. D'Brick Ferguson Virginia?
5. and a few others who should warrant a 1st round grade

So if we don't go QB with our 1st rounder a OT is there to be had.

as i've posted in other threads...I think this is exactly what Saban was thinking about in NOT paying FA premiums or drafting a bunch for this season.

in addition to the players you mention as 1st round possiblities....IF, that's IF the top juniors also come out it is entirely possible that 1st day picks, rounds 1-3 could have between 15-20 total O-Lineman taken....it's early but the preseason grades for those players show that's it's possible.....basically meaning that Saban knew the best opportunity to add quality talent at lower prices would best be attained in next years draft....

...maybe I'm giving too much credit but I'd like to think he has enough forsight to have noticed this.
 
cnc66 said:
yes, no Hershall to trade, a new salary cap, and he was no longer intimate with the college ranks. :( Somewhere I read an article addressing this "advantage" that Buttercup Johnson had and that Saban might have now because he is intimate with todays college ranks. Add to this that Bill Belicheck will no longer be benifiting from Sabans college know how. Good Stuff!:eek:


In addition to JJ being recently in college...most of his coaches on both sides of the ball also came from college....Another thing that should be noted about who was making the picks for Dallas...it was Jerry Jones who was the Owner, Team President, and ACTIVE GM....he was in EVERY "war room", he made ALL the comments to the press after picks on draft day, and Jones was the one you saw on the telephone all the time. While I can't stand Jones (I live in Texas) and think he often takes more credit for his team than sometimes warrants (except for the fact that he turned them into the premir money maker in all of sports) he had the final say over all their picks during JJ's tenure there.
 
Awsi Dooger said:
But he also spit out the unnecessary 4th for Carey. IMO that disqualifies the pick from being a success, regardless who it is or what position. Sorry but I prioritize doing the right thing. That 4th could have turned out to be anyone, maybe a Pro Bowl savior. All the Spielman apologists rave about his late round prowess. Fine, I say this time. By donating a 4th Spielman gave away rights to the guy who would be the best player on our roster right now.

That opinion is no more idiotic than giving away the 4th in the first place.

Hadnot may be a fine player. Based on less than overwhelming athletic ability I estimate otherwise, a functional pro but someone we will want to replace once the line takes shape elsewhere. Admittedly, I have not focused on Hadnot enough yet, block after block.

Spielman's one year also included dumping Todd Wade, a very solid RT just entering his prime. That position could have been set for another half decade. Yeah, the money. Spielman had no problem getting rid of a terrific young DE and our best offensive lineman. Then he delights to shower cash on the likes of Reggie Howard and Damion McIntosh, the latter situation spared the big payout by a fluke friendly gesture from the Raiders. Frankly, I wish that call had never been made. If Spielman had been publicly embarrassed by the McIntosh contract terms and unaware of the injury, perhaps he would have been weakened as a GM, with someone else assuming power alongside, long before the pathetic Ogunleye and Gordon trades took place.

Very well said. A 1st and a 4th to move up one spot for someone who didn't even start (until injuries), and who could possibly be playing out of his true (best) position that may be guard. :mad:

Also, we had to trade up to get Hadnot. :rolleyes:
I blame both JJ and DW, and especially Rick Spielman :fire: for ALL of Miami's problems right now.
 
Fran2fin said:
wouldn't be a bit surprised if JJ had plenty of input after he left and DW took over...Keeping in mind their close friendship due to the many years they had together...JJ was just a phone call away - and still lived down in the Keyes. If anyone was a crutch for DW it was JJ.

Smart of JJ to remain a "Silent" partner for a change. He gets less blame that way if it's true he did advise much.
 
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