PBP: Saban might switch the Fins D to a 3-4

[NaboCane]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2005/01/01/a1f_fins_0101.html


...It's well documented that Saban is a disciple of New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who ran the 3-4 defense as coordinator for the New York Giants and Patriots and uses it to perfection with the world champions. The two are extremely close, so Saban has noticed the success Belichick has had with it. And when Belichick told Saban to run the 4-3 in Cleveland, it was because Belichick was unwilling to dismantle his team to fit the 3-4. Belichick certainly learned a lesson from that. Saban probably did as well.
...If Saban does bring the 3-4 back to South Florida  the Dolphins used it under Don Shula  Bates wouldn't be needed. His specialty is the press-coverage 4-3 scheme the Dolphins currently use, which stars Thomas. Critics say the 5-foot-11 Thomas only can play in a 4-3, where large tackles take up blockers to allow Thomas to make plays. In the 3-4, the linebackers are exposed.


Greg Bedard of the PBP seems to consider the possibility of this to be fairly strong.

Despite Zach Thomas' protestations to the contrary, (mentioned in the article) would he be able to function effectively in the 3-4?

And everyone seems to think Taylor is a great fit for the 3-4 OLB - but does it make any sense to take your best Defensive player out of what he does best (pass rush) for even a small percentage of plays?

 

[KB21]

I don't see it. In 10 years of coaching college football, Saban has stuck with the 4-3 defense. Miami does not have the personnel to run a 3-4 anyway.

 

[FIN-IN-RI]

Saban has been using 4-3 for 10 years.
Why would he change it after the success he has had with it?
The only thing I can think of is that the 3-4 is a better suited defense in the pros.

A lot of our skill players on defense excel in the 4-3 but then again a lot of the players on our defense are getting older and slower. If Saban switches over there will be a major overhaul on defense which I'm not totally against if it will make the Dolphins a better football team for the future.

I could also care less if Bates stays on as the DC or if Zach stays on as MLB.
I'm a Dolphin fan not a player fan.

 

[Muck]

I think it would happen only if Saban is willing to basically tear the team down and start from scratch. I agree with Nabo. You'd be limiting your best player (Taylor). I'm sure Jason could do a decent job out there in space. But he would make for an unusually tall and lanky LB. And I would think it would expose him to more hits and scrum.

Jason is best at defeating people at the LOS, whether it's as a pass rusher or defending the run. Moving him outside would negate his initial advantage over offensive tackles IMO.

 

[xiidaen]

This seems too drastic a change, you'd need to replace (it seems) many of our linebackers, or at least find 2 new prototype interior LBs. (I don't know if Zach would be able to play from the edge, or stay as a MLB.

As for Taylor at OLB, I don't think it's worth it except for occaisional plays -- a la Bates' Tiger formation -- and even then, Taylor lines up as a MLB and it's more a delayed blitz -- he just gets to pick his spot.

Would Taylor still be able to play DE in a 3-4, or do you want more of a DT type end in that position?

Taylor is arguably the top DE in the league, certainly top 3. I don't think you want to ask someone with those abilities to move for, well, anything.

 

[FIN-IN-RI]

I think it would happen only if Saban is willing to basically tear the team down and start from scratch. I agree with Nabo. You'd be limiting your best player (Taylor). I'm sure Jason could do a decent job out there in space. But he would make for an unusually tall and lanky LB. And I would think it would expose him to more hits and scrum.

Jason is best at defeating people at the LOS, whether it's as a pass rusher or defending the run. Moving him outside would negate his initial advantage over offensive tackles IMO.

I think JT would be better rushing the QB off of the LOS. He can use his speed and agility to get around the OT rather than being engaged as soon as the ball is snapped. It would also make him more open to stop the outside run.

 

[NaboCane]

So then this begs an important question: what if Saban makes the re-design of our Defense the cornerstone of his rebuilding of the team?

With most of us feeling that the Offense should be the main focus in upgrading talent, how unhappy would it make us to suffer a complete overhaul that would take years? And wouldn't it smack of change for the sake of change?

Even in a horrible year like this, our D is top-ranked in passing; with two solid DT's in place to run the D as it's intended to work, we'd be near the top in run D as well. The alignment we run - when configured correctly, with the right players - stops the run, rushes the passer effectively, covers the passing game like a blanket. Why dismantle that?

Maybe Saban won't change the D at all, except to add the missing pieces - DT's, S, get younger at DE; or maybe he has a plan to acquire the personnel for the 3-4 at a rapid pace, so that it doesn't take 3-4 years to implement the 3-4.

In any case, I don't see him wanting to come here and lose for years while he overhauls the team in its entirety.

 

[dolphan39]

I agree that we just do not have the personnel to pull this off - even if we count on keeping Tim Bo and Chester both around to play NT and using someone like Bryan Robinson or J Will at Ends. But we would not want D Bo in there all the time at end and we would have to move JT to outside LB. Makes no sense to me from a DL perspective. I do think our LBs could pull it off even Zach, but it would be a huge change on the line where it all starts.

 

[ZOD]

I think something is missing in this entire debate. It may not be so much the philosophy of the defense that makes it a success. It may just be the value that the defense brings to the organization in the salary cap era.

Instead of analyzing the defense via player attributes. Analyze the situation from a cap STANDPOINT.

New England - By far the most successful team in recent years has not overpaid to retain their talent.

Pittsburgh Steelers - Once again you see a team that has not overpaid to retain their talent.

San Diego - Bided their time and are quite possibly the most cap friendly team in the NFL.

Those are the successes utilizing the 34 defense. They all seem to follow a similar monetary path.

Look at a failure utilizing the 34. They (like us) have overpaid to retain their core group. Baltimore Ravens It almost seems like if you overpay to the tune of 7 or 8 million in cap value to two or more players you are doomed to failure.

It's also interesting to note that the Ravens just entered the 34 era. Maybe they realize what it takes monetarily to sustain a talented 43 defense. ?????

Face it... The defense relies on specialists (lack of a better word) to sustain a winner.

We pay for a Pro Bowler at DE (Jason Taylor). His agent looks at him as a DE. We must pay a salary commensurate with a sack total amongst the top 5 DE's.

Meanwhile San Diego cut loose a highly paid Marcellus Wiley and they've prospered.

Meanwhile New England drafts Richard Seymour and he's listed as a DT (hint,hint).

With a 34 defense the coach chooses the fourth and fifth man to pressure the QB. In New England's case it could be Rodney Harrison, Willie Mcginest, Ted Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Mike Vrabel, Roman Phifer, or Rosevelt Colvin. At the conclusion of the season when one of these men come to negotiate a contract the team will not be held hostage by a statistic. Such was the case with Adewale Ogunleye. We already pay for Jason Taylor's statistic.

You are keenly aware of Zach Thomas total tackles at the end of every year. So is his agent. Meanwhile Ted Brushi intercepts a pass and runs it into the endzone to end our 2003 season. Rodney Harrison (pseudo-linebacker) blindsides Jay Fiedler's ribs. Willie McGinest is the albatross in most every other team's backfield.

What's going to happen with Morlon Greenwood this year? Is his experience in this defense not invaluable to this team? More than likely he's gone after this year. We don't have the money to tie up in defense unless he's will to work a million per year. I don't see New England having to let their linebackers stray. They don't have to play to a statistic. I don't see the learning curve in New England that Greenwood went through neither. I think most all of us look to Greenwood's total interceptions every year in disappointment. Why is that? His position is almost directly tied to pass coverage. Again, playing to a statistic.

Maybe, just maybe these teams are attempting to wag the dog. Maybe it's not your opposition on gameday that is the most important entity to fool to have success in the NFL. It might just be the agents that you must fool first.

 

[Muck]

Good lord that was a great post. If you posted this in the main forum (you could just say we were having an email conversation), I think it could single-handedly save the site for a week. I think it would cause the value of every other site on our server to rise by $10. :tongue:

On point, excellent post. I never thought about it from that angle. And it makes sense. Look how long Pittsburgh has fielded an outstanding defense despite letting several stars walk almost every season. Part of that has to go to great coaching, sure. But it certainly speaks to this theory.

Another team running the 3-4 and improving defensively is Atlanta. I'm not sure of their cap situation though. But is it any coincidence that Jim Mora Jr. (who ran the 4-3 at SF) is running the 3-4 while Rich McKay (who's an excellent GM) is in charge?? Could it be possible that McKay subscribed to this theory and set out to build his team that way once Reeves was out of the way (especially when he knew he was going to have to break the bank for Vick)?? This idea is just so new to me that it hit me like a ton of bricks.

How about Philadelphia?? They looked to be in the same boat running a 4-3. They never seemed to give out the big contracts on defense until they signed Kearse to that huge deal and locked up those two young CBs long term this year. So maybe the tides are changing for them. Still, it looks like they're going to let Cory Simon walk. I guess we'll see whether they made "exceptions" for their superstar players (every team has to have them) or Andy Reid is changing his philosophy.

 

[KB21]

Atlanta actually switched back to the 4-3. They were running the 3-4 under Wade Phillips, but once Mora came in, he switched them back to the 4-3.

Their personnel doesn't fit the 3-4. Their starting defensive line is Patrick Kearney at end, Brady Smith at end, Rod Coleman at tackle, and Ed Jasper at tackle.

 

[Muck]

Atlanta actually switched back to the 4-3. They were running the 3-4 under Wade Phillips, but once Mora came in, he switched them back to the 4-3.

Their personnel doesn't fit the 3-4. Their starting defensive line is Patrick Kearney at end, Brady Smith at end, Rod Coleman at tackle, and Ed Jasper at tackle.

You're right. And I even watched them last week and noticed the change. :smackhead

Good lord. I think I need to go to bed.

 

[ZOD]

Good lord that was a great post. If you posted this in the main forum (you could just say we were having an email conversation)

I really don't think they would get it. They wouldn't get that it's just an idea.

At this point, I don't think that most of the membership "out there" is interested in conversation. I had a 17 year old imply indirectly that I was clueless today for raising a similar conversation. They are not worthy.

That is why I'm glad I noticed you guys posting over here. Like most I've become disenchanted with conversation in the main forum as it seems a good point that may lead to a conversation is being drowned out. I observed a great post by someone else the other day. I began to respond but then thought that at the speed the stupid posts were coming into the thread posting would be pointless.

Then again. You post it. Start a thread with it. Edit it to your liking and post it. I'd like to see the responses.

They idolize you. You are Muck-their imaginary friend.

 

[Muck]

Well Jesus Kryst man, he's 17. What could you possibly know that he doesn't??

I sent out a mass email a few days ago to everyone with access to this forum. Hopefully most received it.

 

[ZOD]

Well Jesus Kryst man, he's 17. What could you possibly know that he doesn't??

I sent out a mass email a few days ago to everyone with access to this forum. Hopefully most received it.

Check my edited post above.....