PFF’s Favorite and Least Favorite Miami Dolphins Free Agency Move | Page 7 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

PFF’s Favorite and Least Favorite Miami Dolphins Free Agency Move

I agree and it's why I've continually been a skeptic.

We've hit on solid players with high picks but none worthy of building the franchise around. There's no HoF MLB who we could've built an entire Super Bowl caliber defense around and would've been happy re-signing. There's been no HoF QB who would've been capable of carrying the team to the Super Bowl with the weaponry we've had over the last couple years.

We've had a good roster but not a great one, thus I'm not going to fall in love with anyone from Holland to Phillips to Tua. Injuries and general lack of performance against good competition have too often let us down with this group. If we ultimately have to rebuild with another, so be it.

People point to Wilkins and Hunt as hits (and they are hits to be fair about it even though that's now ancient history) but they weren't good enough to warrant re-signing not only because they will prove replaceable from a talent perspective but also because they are a DT and a G, two positions that are always replaceable due to a lack of direct game-impact unless you're talking about a HoF-level player (e.g. Aaron Donald).

The lesson:
>> If you take a non-premium position high in the draft, be it a DT, G, FS, RB, etc., that player had better be a franchise player worthy of HoF discussion or else they just won't have warranted the pick. It's dangerous to pick such positions because it's so hard to make it worth your while. Those positions are too available, too replaceable and too cheap not to fill via mid-rounders and FA.

Grier's most recent job was to make sure we had alternatives when those two hit FA and as far as I can tell, he did nothing for us. We'll be worse at DT with two stop-gaps and the interior OL is still a question.

A bad GM is constantly racing around plugging holes and that's exactly what we've been doing for a long, long time. The Tank only exacerbated that by creating a talent deficiency across the entire roster and setting up a situation where we'd do exactly what we've done >> used high picks on non-premium positions to fill holes and brought in a bunch of expensive outside talent to make us look competitive.



My fear is that the NFL has consciously turned itself into a game where no star is worthy of a large 2nd contract unless that player (this being especially true of QBs through which the entire game is controlled) has transcendent physical talent capable of reaching a level you'd call "unstoppable."

What you describe about stars and fill-ins is probably true and it makes a lot of sense in terms of marketing. The more concentrated and "heroic" a few singular people are the more marketable it is. You need your stars and it's better if the sport is built around identifying it's icons.

I don't know what about Tua is supposedly so. He's thus far shown to be quite stoppable as far as I can tell. Why we'd forego future lottery picks to stick with a known commodity is a mystery to me. I think people forget how easy it is to be a middle-of-the-road team. With a little effort, Miami isn't falling that far back and yet being a perennial 9-, 10- or 11-win team probably ain't enough.

For instance, the Bills went 7-9 in 2016 and then 9-7 in 2017 under QB Tyrod Taylor before getting into position in the following draft (through a trade with Tampa Bay) where they selected Josh Allen with the #7 pick (the 3rd QB in that draft).

You don't have to suck to find a guy that changes the course of your franchise--and it isn't that hard to be .500--but you can't tie yourself to someone who ain't the man. The Chiefs were a Playoff team when they drafted Pat Mahomes. They didn't tank to make that happen. But they weren't afraid of moving on from Alex Smith either. Deshaun Watson went a couple picks later to a Texans team that won it's division and won a Playoff game the year prior under QB Brock Osweiler.

We all root for the Dolphins and for Tua but that doesn't mean we're betting our life savings on them to beat out better teams/players. ;)
Couldnt agree more with everything you wrote--especially the point about KC not needing to tank to assemble their 'unstippable" core. To follow their lead means not falling in love with "stoppable" players and instead erring toward trading them too soon rather than too late or letting them walk when trade compesation would greatly outweigh compensatory--or worse overpaying them to stay.

Amassing draft capital means number of picks as much if not more than high picks. It allows for at least serviceable continuity when sub-elite players become injury-prone, too expensive or dispensable for other reasons. It allows for risk taking in any round--picking for ceilings and not depending on a reliable floor. This means spending on scouting too. It may also mean overpaying the scout team to discourage poaching.

Great coaching is the other ingredient, and i think Miami is moving in the right direction right now.
 
I agree and it's why I've continually been a skeptic.

We've hit on solid players with high picks but none worthy of building the franchise around. There's no HoF MLB who we could've built an entire Super Bowl caliber defense around and would've been happy re-signing. There's been no HoF QB who would've been capable of carrying the team to the Super Bowl with the weaponry we've had over the last couple years.

We've had a good roster but not a great one, thus I'm not going to fall in love with anyone from Holland to Phillips to Tua. Injuries and general lack of performance against good competition have too often let us down with this group. If we ultimately have to rebuild with another, so be it.

People point to Wilkins and Hunt as hits (and they are hits to be fair about it even though that's now ancient history) but they weren't good enough to warrant re-signing not only because they will prove replaceable from a talent perspective but also because they are a DT and a G, two positions that are always replaceable due to a lack of direct game-impact unless you're talking about a HoF-level player (e.g. Aaron Donald).

The lesson:
>> If you take a non-premium position high in the draft, be it a DT, G, FS, RB, etc., that player had better be a franchise player worthy of HoF discussion or else they just won't have warranted the pick. It's dangerous to pick such positions because it's so hard to make it worth your while. Those positions are too available, too replaceable and too cheap not to fill via mid-rounders and FA.

Grier's most recent job was to make sure we had alternatives when those two hit FA and as far as I can tell, he did nothing for us. We'll be worse at DT with two stop-gaps and the interior OL is still a question.

A bad GM is constantly racing around plugging holes and that's exactly what we've been doing for a long, long time. The Tank only exacerbated that by creating a talent deficiency across the entire roster and setting up a situation where we'd do exactly what we've done >> used high picks on non-premium positions to fill holes and brought in a bunch of expensive outside talent to make us look competitive.



My fear is that the NFL has consciously turned itself into a game where no star is worthy of a large 2nd contract unless that player (this being especially true of QBs through which the entire game is controlled) has transcendent physical talent capable of reaching a level you'd call "unstoppable."

What you describe about stars and fill-ins is probably true and it makes a lot of sense in terms of marketing. The more concentrated and "heroic" a few singular people are the more marketable it is. You need your stars and it's better if the sport is built around identifying it's icons.

I don't know what about Tua is supposedly so. He's thus far shown to be quite stoppable as far as I can tell. Why we'd forego future lottery picks to stick with a known commodity is a mystery to me. I think people forget how easy it is to be a middle-of-the-road team. With a little effort, Miami isn't falling that far back and yet being a perennial 9-, 10- or 11-win team probably ain't enough.

For instance, the Bills went 7-9 in 2016 and then 9-7 in 2017 under QB Tyrod Taylor before getting into position in the following draft (through a trade with Tampa Bay) where they selected Josh Allen with the #7 pick (the 3rd QB in that draft).

You don't have to suck to find a guy that changes the course of your franchise--and it isn't that hard to be .500--but you can't tie yourself to someone who ain't the man. The Chiefs were a Playoff team when they drafted Pat Mahomes. They didn't tank to make that happen. But they weren't afraid of moving on from Alex Smith either. Deshaun Watson went a couple picks later to a Texans team that won it's division and won a Playoff game the year prior under QB Brock Osweiler.

We all root for the Dolphins and for Tua but that doesn't mean we're betting our life savings on them to beat out better teams/players. ;)
Great points, and well said. IMO, this regime so far has been more of a "wannabe" contender than a true contender. They do just enough to tease us, but not enough when it really matters. To be honest, it's hard to figure out who is to blame for this, so I just blame everyone... GM, HC, and players.

IOW, Miami is still a .500 team that occasionally gets lucky and wins a few extra games.
 
Great points, and well said. IMO, this regime so far has been more of a "wannabe" contender than a true contender. They do just enough to tease us, but not enough when it really matters. To be honest, it's hard to figure out who is to blame for this, so I just blame everyone... GM, HC, and players.

IOW, Miami is still a .500 team that occasionally gets lucky and wins a few extra games.

Yeah, we can only offer up our own individual 'meta-theories' on who to blame.

For me, the whole thing signals that we have an owner whose fingerprints are all over the team year-to-year and a GM who's more about keeping his job than risking it to follow a vision.

Ross is busy tampering and ticking off veteran coaches while Grier has tanked for Tua and traded us into oblivion, LOL.

I have no faith in either being the visionary we need. We don't draft well enough to find foundational pieces and we rely far too much on big name FAs as core contributors rather than icing-on-the-cake difference-makers. That's never going to win you anything.

The NFL is about creating value and we don't do that. We trade money and picks for other people's already-established value.

Miami doesn't feel like a real contender because we have no real culture. We don't represent anything of substance--at least not that correlates with what successful NFL football in December and January seems to be based on.
 
The Patriots "dynasty" is mostly taken as 2001 - 2004.

You said:
View attachment 167962


That early Patriots "dynasty" was built on the back of an elite defense. Tom Brady did not directly cause that defense to come into existence (although I'm sure a good QB helps the situation).

Point being, there was a ton of defensive talent on that early-2000s Patriots roster and anyone suggesting Belichick wasn't one of the NFL's foremost DCs is probably wrong.

Patriots DEF rank by Points Allowed:

2001: #6 (SB)
2002: #17
2003: #1 (SB)
2004: #2 (SB)



Even in their 2nd "dynasty" they were great on defense:

2016: #1 (SB win over ATL)
2017: #5 (SB loss to PHI)
2018: #7 (SB win over LAR)
Stop. You guys make me kaugh. So Brady didn’t carry the Patriots? That’s hysterical. Just as a point of emphasis, Brady went out and won a Super Bowl at age 43 with a different team.
 
Stop. You guys make me kaugh. So Brady didn’t carry the Patriots? That’s hysterical.

You're definitely alone if you believe that the Patriots won Super Bowls because Tom Brady "carried" them.

I think it's all but impossible for any "dynasty" to exist because of 1 person.

Dynasties are by their nature about a confluence of great forces coming together:

late-60s Packers
early-70s Dolphins
late-70s Steelers
late-80s 49ers
early-90s Cowboys

Just as a point of emphasis, Brady went out and won a Super Bowl at age 43 with a different team.

I think it's pretty much common knowledge that the Tampa Bay Bucs acquired Tom Brady late in his career. I think it's also common knowledge that aside from Brady playing great football, the Bucs roster was also incredible.
 
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You're definitely alone if you believe that the Patriots won Super Bowls because Tom Brady "carried" them.

I think it's all but impossible for any "dynasty" to exist because of 1 person.
Okay. If you can’t see what Brady did for the Patriots organization and how many deficiencies he covered up, I don’t know what to tell you. Same thing with Mahomes in KC. Andy Reid has been a great coach basically his whole career and he has 0 championships until Mahomes showed up.
 
Okay. If you can’t see what Brady did for the Patriots organization and how many deficiencies he covered up, I don’t know what to tell you.

Why don't we start with you not telling me anything.

But thanks for the education, Rick. I'm really delighted to have you tell me how stupid I am.

And thanks for all the facts you presented. You definitely backed up all your claims in a way that was easy to learn from.

All I had to do with admit I'm stupid and believe what you said and it was easy.

Thanks for taking the time to log on today.
 
You're definitely alone if you believe that the Patriots won Super Bowls because Tom Brady "carried" them.

I think it's all but impossible for any "dynasty" to exist because of 1 person.

Dynasties are by their nature about a confluence of great forces coming together:

late-60s Packers
early-70s Dolphins
late-70s Steelers
late-80s 49ers
early-90s Cowboys



I think it's pretty much common knowledge that the Tampa Bay Bucs acquired Tom Brady late in his career. I think it's also common knowledge that aside from Brady playing great football, the Bucs roster was also incredible.
First of all, your examples of previous dynasties are all pre salary cap. It’s a completely different era now. It’s never been a more QB defendant league than it is now. Secondly, why is Belichick’s record so bad without Brady? The Patriots had the 15th ranked defense this previous season. Why are they picking third in the upcoming draft?
 
You're definitely alone if you believe that the Patriots won Super Bowls because Tom Brady "carried" them.

I think it's all but impossible for any "dynasty" to exist because of 1 person.

Dynasties are by their nature about a confluence of great forces coming together:

late-60s Packers
early-70s Dolphins
late-70s Steelers
late-80s 49ers
early-90s Cowboys



I think it's pretty much common knowledge that the Tampa Bay Bucs acquired Tom Brady late in his career. I think it's also common knowledge that aside from Brady playing great football, the Bucs roster was also incredible.
More like the early/mid 60s Packers. They were beginning to age out by the late 60s.
 
Didn’t they have a lot of those things after Brady left? Yeah, it was Belichick and his “great” history of drafting that carried the Patriots 🙄. Do you know what Belichick’s record is without Brady?
No, actually McDaniels left, the league rules shifted heavily in favor of offenses and years of not being in position to draft blue chip players finally caught up with the Patriots, leaving them largely bereft of talent. Bill is also in his seventies, and is clearly not able to adjust to the changes in the league, being too stubborn to bring in a young creative mind on offense as one example. If you think Tom Brady was the one that shut down Sean McVay's offense, or made the half time adjustments to neuter the Falcons (the best offense in the league) as just two examples of Belichick's brilliance, I don't know what to tell you.

Honestly, if you believe that Andy Reid and Steve Spagnuolo have no bearing on the Chiefs success, and it's all down to Mahomes there's nothing more to say. It sounds like a middle schooler's take on a complex subject, completely lacking nuance. Also worth noting that BB has 8 super bowl rings.

TLDR; Where does Dan Marino fit into this picture by the way? He just wasn't great enough to will his team to victory like Tom?
 
Stop. You guys make me kaugh. So Brady didn’t carry the Patriots? That’s hysterical. Just as a point of emphasis, Brady went out and won a Super Bowl at age 43 with a different team.

With a totally stacked team! He had great weapons, a nasty defense and an o-line that outperformed all expectations. Not only that but at the mid-way point of the season Brady looked like trash, until they installed a bunch of McDaniels plays into their offense during the bye week.

Nobody is saying Tom Brady isn't an all time great quarterback, you are being completely reductive.
 
No, actually McDaniels left, the league rules shifted heavily in favor of offenses and years of not being in position to draft blue chip players finally caught up with the Patriots, leaving them largely bereft of talent. Bill is also in his seventies, and is clearly not able to adjust to the changes in the league, being too stubborn to bring in a young creative mind on offense as one example. If you think Tom Brady was the one that shut down Sean McVay's offense, or made the half time adjustments to neuter the Falcons (the best offense in the league) as just two examples of Belichick's brilliance, I don't know what to tell you.

Honestly, if you believe that Andy Reid and Steve Spagnuolo have no bearing on the Chiefs success, and it's all down to Mahomes there's nothing more to say. It sounds like a middle schooler's take on a complex subject, completely lacking nuance. Also worth noting that BB has 8 super bowl rings.

TLDR; Where does Dan Marino fit into this picture by the way? He just wasn't great enough to will his team to victory like Tom?
Dan Marino played in a different era. The salary cap changed everything. Back when Marino played it was a lot easier to keep a team together. You needed to build your team through the draft and you needed a much more complete team to win a championship back then. That's why you saw QB's who weren't considered elite win super bowls more frequently than in this era. Shula was never able to put a complete team around Dan during his career. If Marino played the prime years of his career during Brady's era, or now during Mahomes' era, he would be talked about in the same way. An elite QB that can cover a multitude of flaws that gives your organization a large window to win multiple championships over the course of their careers.
I can't believe I even have to explain this. It's nuts that you can't see that New England doesn't win six Super Bowls and play in another two without Tom Brady as the QB. And just for good measure, Brady leaves New England for Tampa and wins another championship at the age of 43 and New England totally falls apart. Coincidence? I think not. Elite QBs like Brady and Mahomes cover for flaws on your team that other teams just can't overcome. That's how Kansas City can trade the best receiver on the team and one of the best receivers in the league in Tyreek Hill and still win the Super Bowl with basically garbage at the wide receiver position. If your take is that Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes didn't "literally" win those championships all on their own, I guess you got me then. You're right, they didn't win them, literally, all by themselves.
 
With a totally stacked team! He had great weapons, a nasty defense and an o-line that outperformed all expectations. Not only that but at the mid-way point of the season Brady looked like trash, until they installed a bunch of McDaniels plays into their offense during the bye week.

Nobody is saying Tom Brady isn't an all time great quarterback, you are being completely reductive.
Why didn't McDaniels install some of those great plays while he was in Las Vegas and win the Super Bowl? :lol:
 
Why didn't McDaniels install some of those great plays while he was in Las Vegas and win the Super Bowl? :lol:
Because he's a terrible head coach, with awful personality traits. HC of a team is a completely different set of responsibilities to running an Offense. You do understand that, right?
 
Dan Marino played in a different era. The salary cap changed everything. Back when Marino played it was a lot easier to keep a team together. You needed to build your team through the draft and you needed a much more complete team to win a championship back then. That's why you saw QB's who weren't considered elite win super bowls more frequently than in this era. Shula was never able to put a complete team around Dan during his career. If Marino played the prime years of his career during Brady's era, or now during Mahomes' era, he would be talked about in the same way. An elite QB that can cover a multitude of flaws that gives your organization a large window to win multiple championships over the course of their careers.
I can't believe I even have to explain this. It's nuts that you can't see that New England doesn't win six Super Bowls and play in another two without Tom Brady as the QB. And just for good measure, Brady leaves New England for Tampa and wins another championship at the age of 43 and New England totally falls apart. Coincidence? I think not. Elite QBs like Brady and Mahomes cover for flaws on your team that other teams just can't overcome. That's how Kansas City can trade the best receiver on the team and one of the best receivers in the league in Tyreek Hill and still win the Super Bowl with basically garbage at the wide receiver position. If your take is that Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes didn't "literally" win those championships all on their own, I guess you got me then. You're right, they didn't win them, literally, all by themselves.
Man you just repeat yourself over and over huh? I've explained why New England fell apart, and I've explained why Tom was successful in Tampa. Nobody, nobody at all has said that Tom wasn't a big part of New England success. You are the only person ridiculous enough to claim it was solely down to him. The pats went 7-9 with Cam Newton at the helm the next season. The season after that? 10 wins. Let's just end the discourse here, it's not on topic for this thread, and trying to talk sensibly to you is an unpleasant experience.
 
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