Saban's Two Year Plan | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Saban's Two Year Plan

Fineas said:
It's kind of funny that the same people who were saying that Wannstedt sucked are now saying that Nick can't be expected to win now. That's BS. Wannstedt went 11-5 in both 2000 and 2001 with much, much less talent than Saban has now. Look at those teams and compare them to what Saban has to work with.

QB: Fiedler v. Frerotte/Feeley. While probably no huge upgrade, I don't think you can argue that the current guys are much worse than Fielder was in his first 2 years as an NFL starter.

RB: Lamar Smith v. Ricky/Ronnie. Easy win for 2005.

WR: Leslie Shepherd/Gadsden/Tony Martin/Chambers (rookie) v. Chambers (veteran)/Booker/Boston. Another clear-cut victory for 2005.

TE: Jed Weaver/Hunter Goodwin v. McMichael/DLee/LDiamond. 2005 in a landslide.

OL: The 2000/2001 teams had Ruddy, Irwin, Dixon, BSmith, John Bock, Todd Wade, Spencer Folau, and Todd Perry. Hardly and all-star cast. While this year's line is no great shakes either, it should not be substantially worse than those 2000/2001 teams. Especially if Houck is worth half of what he's getting paid.

DE: Bromell/Mixon/Taylor v. Taylor/Carter/Bowens/Roth. I'll take the 2005 group.

DT: Bowens/Gardener v. Traylor/Holliday/Chester/Zgonina. The 2000-01 group was better, but was no real pass rush presence. If Chester gets healthy, he and Traylor should be a pretty good run-stuffing pair.

LB: Zach/DRodgers/Greenwood v. Zach/Junior/Crowder/Spragan. I'd again take the 2005 group.

S: Freeman/Marion/BWalker v. Schulters/TJones/YBell/TTillman. The jury is still out on the 2005 group. I'd give the edge to the 2000-01 group, but not in a landslide.

CB: Madison/Surtain/Cousin/JFletcher v. Madison/Daniels/Howard. The 2000-01 group was better but only because Saban elected to trade Surtain. Had we kept Surtain (at the expense of Roth), I'd have said the 2005 group is better.

The bottom line is that this year's team is at least as talented as those teams that Wanny took to 11-5 in 2000 and 2001. I'd say this year's team is much more talented. I'm not a Wannstedt apologist -- I never cared for him (I felt we played not to lose rather than to win and were too conservative). But you can't say Wannstedt was terrible unless you agree that those 2000-01 teams were very talented. If they were very talented, this year's team is even more so. I'm not willing to give Saban a free year based on an imagined 2-year plan.
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Good post....actually this and the "thread starter" are both good.

I've noticed that in the proceeding posts that people feel the O-Line was better for Wanny's teams...that's a fair argument..actually for both sides.

But with Wanny posting good regular season records every year except for his last, you give him credit for either his coaching or his FA signings. (JJ, for those who are blind followers, did a terrible job of managing the salary cap for future years. He KNEW he wasn't going to be here to 6+ years and pulled out all the stops, whether anyone will admit it or not, the fact was that Wanny also inherited a salary cap nightmare...the salary #s prove that)

Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm glad Wanny is gone. It was time and by him hanging in one more year (albeit the 2nd worst year in franchise history) is provided us the opportunity to get Saban as Little Nicky would NOT have been here a year earlier (he was coming off that Natl. Champ and he himself said he wasn't ready yet)....Personally, I give credit more to Wanny's coaching than to his player acquisition skills...but....that's not saying much as I still stand by my comments that Wanny is the 3rd worst coach I've EVER seen at making half-time adjustments...just so you know I rank them as #1-Rich Kotite, #2- Jimmy Johnson, #3 Wanny (which only makes sense sense JJ was his mentor :) )

Oh, and for those who think that JJ is who set Wanny up, you might want to look a little closer. In addition to the even worse salary cap mess that JJ left Wanny (which was worse than Shula left JJ...even though JJ came right out and railed Shula in the media on that!)....JJ had terrible drafts, noone will debate, or at least they shouldn't,that we had more John Avery's and Cecil Collins, Yatil Green's than Zach's and JTs. Also the character of the players was horrendous. I think that was Wanny's biggest thing. He wanted "good" character guys. JJ didn't care as long as the helped him win! The sad thing was that JJ didn't win at the level that Wanny did. Yes, JJ did get further in the playoffs than Wanny but on the whole Wanny's teams played better.

Sorry I got off on a tangent there folks....With the fact that Lawenrce Phillips is in the news again (for what I think is attempted murder this time?) it rememinds me that even when JJ didn't draft those types of players, he was more than willing to pick them up when they got cut. *I'll always believe that JJ was the absolute worst thing to happen to our franchise....ever!
 
The response post to my thread is an excellent response. I just wanted to add though, that sometimes you can't measure things easily. For instance, the 2000 O-line was one of the best Dolphins O-lines in years. They were excellent. That is a HUGE advantage compared to the 2005 Dolphins. When your O-line is as bad as our is, everything suffers - the passing game, running game. Even the defense suffers because more pressure is put on them and they generally have to stay on the field longer.

It's also a living nightmare for the O-Coordinator. How many tricks can you pull out of your bag when the O-line can't block? None of them will work after awhile anyway.

The 2000 O-line, in spite of Wanny and WiseGuy, took Lamar Smith off the scrap heap and made him look like a pro bowl RB. Even Fiedler had his moments behind that O-line.

That's where we are now. Until Saban and Houck fix our line, we are in trouble.
 
FinFan57 said:
3) No one has ever questioned Wanny's ability on defense.
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Really? I've heard a lot of people complain abot the defense choking several times. But if you want to talk about what a great defensive guy Wanny was, consider this: He was an offensive coordinator. You could even make an argument that Jim Bates was the better coach then. Probably still is.
 
FinFan57 said:
The response post to my thread is an excellent response. I just wanted to add though, that sometimes you can't measure things easily. For instance, the 2000 O-line was one of the best Dolphins O-lines in years. They were excellent. That is a HUGE advantage compared to the 2005 Dolphins. When your O-line is as bad as our is, everything suffers - the passing game, running game. Even the defense suffers because more pressure is put on them and they generally have to stay on the field longer.

It's also a living nightmare for the O-Coordinator. How many tricks can you pull out of your bag when the O-line can't block? None of them will work after awhile anyway.

The 2000 O-line, in spite of Wanny and WiseGuy, took Lamar Smith off the scrap heap and made him look like a pro bowl RB. Even Fiedler had his moments behind that O-line.

That's where we are now. Until Saban and Houck fix our line, we are in trouble.
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When most of us talk about O-lines, it's a circular argument. If the results are good, we say the line was good. If the results are bad, we say the line is bad. You can make a case that the 2000 line was better than this years, but you can't make a credible case that it was excellent or even very good. Even the results -- 24th in the NFL in yards per carry and a sack every 15 attempts -- don't bear that out. And how do you explain the 11-5 record in 2001 with a line that lost Brent Smith and Marcus Spriggs for the season, Spencer Folau started at LT for 16 games, Mark Dixon missed half the year, etc.
 
Looking at the 2005 talent VS prior teams is only so telling. The AFC was not the beast it is now. Everyone has gotten better. I love everything Saban has said and done however, however he has not yet won a game. I have no doubt he will win one of the first three.
 
I have faith in saban. He knows what he wants and is not going to coddle players.
 
This is one of the best threads and posts I have ever read on this site in awhile.

- We need to find out who are starting quarterback is soon
- O-line needs to improve quickly I mean Houck better get them gelling soon
- Improve our DB and DT position

IF we can get this done we will be a competitive team either this year or next as long as this gets done
 
FinFan57 said:
Can there be any doubt that Nick Saban knew he inherited a mess and realized he needed two years to clean this team up? I believe it is quite obvious, after a good look at this team, that it's been Saban's plan all along. Not to say that he isn't incredibly competitive and will do everything in his power to produce a decent season THIS year.

Many people believe that Saban should have just forgotten about this season, draft the best available QB, fire sale every expensive, older player we have on this team (Madison, Taylor, Zach, etc), bring in as much young talent as possible, and collect draft picks. This type of surgery is known as amputation and I can't think of a single instance that it has worked.

The model organizations in the NFL, which include New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Philadelphia have all done well through the draft, kept productive older players as role models and mentors, and patiently drafted and signed best players available, not desperately reaching for need positions. This is called precision surgery and makes the most sense to me.

Saban showed patience with an excellent draft (taking the best players available) and keeping productive veterans. He invested in a top-notch coaching staff, and brought in low-risk veterans with short-term contracts.

When you really think about it, what else could he do? He had to see what kind of young talent we have on the O-line, whether Feeley really could lead this team, etc. I think he made the best educated guess he could, brought in the best players available, managed the salary cap, and will continue to evaluate what he inherited.

Sadly, most of us were extremely disappointed with Wannstedt/Spielman, and I think we actually overrated them. I believe they were even worse than we thought. We were poised to be the worst team in the NFL this year, if Wanny and Rick had stayed. They absolutely ran this organization into the ground.

Saban has already turned about 60% of this team over from last year and would love to cut a few more linemen, at the very least. How can you inherit 80% garbage and turn it into sugar in one year? Can't be done. Three years is too long for Saban, he will have us competitive by next year, which is a miracle when you consider what he inherited.
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I never overrated Wannstedt, It was no secret he had destroyed the Bears the day JJ Snake Oil sold Wayne down the sewer on this pathetic coach.
 
FinFan57 said:
Can there be any doubt that Nick Saban knew he inherited a mess and realized he needed two years to clean this team up? I believe it is quite obvious, after a good look at this team, that it's been Saban's plan all along. Not to say that he isn't incredibly competitive and will do everything in his power to produce a decent season THIS year.

Many people believe that Saban should have just forgotten about this season, draft the best available QB, fire sale every expensive, older player we have on this team (Madison, Taylor, Zach, etc), bring in as much young talent as possible, and collect draft picks. This type of surgery is known as amputation and I can't think of a single instance that it has worked.

The model organizations in the NFL, which include New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Philadelphia have all done well through the draft, kept productive older players as role models and mentors, and patiently drafted and signed best players available, not desperately reaching for need positions. This is called precision surgery and makes the most sense to me.

Saban showed patience with an excellent draft (taking the best players available) and keeping productive veterans. He invested in a top-notch coaching staff, and brought in low-risk veterans with short-term contracts.

When you really think about it, what else could he do? He had to see what kind of young talent we have on the O-line, whether Feeley really could lead this team, etc. I think he made the best educated guess he could, brought in the best players available, managed the salary cap, and will continue to evaluate what he inherited.

Sadly, most of us were extremely disappointed with Wannstedt/Spielman, and I think we actually overrated them. I believe they were even worse than we thought. We were poised to be the worst team in the NFL this year, if Wanny and Rick had stayed. They absolutely ran this organization into the ground.

Saban has already turned about 60% of this team over from last year and would love to cut a few more linemen, at the very least. How can you inherit 80% garbage and turn it into sugar in one year? Can't be done. Three years is too long for Saban, he will have us competitive by next year, which is a miracle when you consider what he inherited.
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very good post
 
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