Second Round Trading Down - What's the real story?

[NRA]

I can't imagine anyone drafting James ahead of Martin to play OT-

your right J-OFF-HER-DOLL because most nfl teams want him to play GUARD. several draft mags didnt list him in the OT section, they had him in the OG pages.

PRO FOOTBALL DRAFT GUIDE is one of those. had him the highest ranking GUARD. here is what they said on him as his weeknesess........... .

ZACK MARTIN has slow, choppy feet and poor balance kick sliding off the edge. this coupled with the fact he doesnt have ideal length is why he will be a better fit at guard in the nfl. has trouble with speed and power blocking on the edge.

folks are forgetting that we run a ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME where a lineman has to be athletic., able to mirror, must have a GREAT kick slide [like james and turner] and be able to block on an island and athletic enogh to get off the line and into the second level FAST!!

if people will research the players we chose AND the ones we passed on and that so many were fixated on, they will find hickey made the RIGHT CHOICES on all these players. zone blocking scheme is not like a power scheme where you line up the biggest meat balls you can find and plug them in. you have to be able to do so much more in a zbs. this is why the broncos run blocking and pass pro was so good in alex gibbs zbs scheme, they were lighter and fast and athletic and could block on the move and flatten guys at the second level. that scheme is what made EVERY RB on the broncos roster a pro bowler. and why elway stayed so clean. benton's scheme is based on that.

hickey did NOT REACH for just any tackle left over. i think he would have passed on martin and moses. he passed on kuoandijo. reason? like the above traits mentioned for a zbs tackle, those guys didnt have them. they were the complete opposite of what we needed for a zbs tackle. REMEMBER: james was said to be coveted by miami weeks beofre the draft. there is even a thread about it here somewhere.

they got the guy they wanted, who fit the scheme to the tee and they didnt give away the rest of our draft and picks from next year [ala ireland] to do it!! the draft fell just about right for hickey, but not for most of the fans. the more i study this draft, the more i like it. EVERYONE IS LEAVING OUT OR JUST IGNORING OUR SCHEME and if they will keep that in mind and take a look at the scouting reports on those we took AND those we didnt, you will see what a great draft this was and why hickey chose who he did. some were need picks for sure, but, they were NOT blind reaches, they were the right players for the scheme.

thats what is important.

 

[normaniii]

I think they had Jawaun James pegged a couple of months ago.

No coincidence in my mind that they signed the best pass blocking OT in FA and then drafted the best pass blocking RT, not named Jake Matthews.

There were rumours that they were trade partners with Minnesota if JM fell that far and that they considered James 1st round calibre.

I think JM was 1st option JJ 2nd.

After that I think he liked a couple of guys including Landry sand Turner, so took the opportunity to trade down.

 

[spiketex]

no. allen robertson isnt the wr that landry is. it would have been landry no matter what, weather robinson was sitting there or not.

this ridiculous 4.7 thing has really gotten into peoples heads for some reason. he has ALWAYS been around 4.5 and he runs ONE SET with a BAD HAMSTRING and he is a slow bum.

not aimed at you SPIKE, its just a general statement. peoples heads are clouded by that and still sore hickey didnt trade our draft to move up and take martin. jarvis landry WILL START and he will be a real contender for OPOTY and could win it. he will get a LOT of balls thrown his way as tanny likes those intermediate throws. he'll have the numbers.

it would have cost us 3 pics out of our draft and probably something next year to move up high enough to SECURE landing martin. he made the smart move. and when he fell, NO ONE knew the cowboys were going o-line. NO ONE! the jets were going calvin pryor or wr. by that time i am sure hickey and others thought he was landing in their lap. but i will say this....., i am not so sure they would have taken martin over james. he seemed to be the guy they wanted and it looks like filling the right tackle spot first was their goal. everyone wanted martin as a guard in the nfl. hey, hickey turned down a couple trade offers for more pics and he didnt budge. james was probably the pic all the way.

conviction. a plan. thought. how refreshing!!!

NRA - I'm sure that Landry is a 4.5 second guy - he shouldn't have run with the strained hamstring - but that turns out to be our lucky day. I love the Landry pick. I just didn't appreciate how good he is when checking out the WR options. I also really liked Allen Robinson, but maybe Landry is a better fit in Miami. I expect Landry to start and we will have a really hungry group of WRs.

 

[normaniii]

your right J-OFF-HER-DOLL because most nfl teams want him to play GUARD. several draft mags didnt list him in the OT section, they had him in the OG pages.

PRO FOOTBALL DRAFT GUIDE is one of those. had him the highest ranking GUARD. here is what they said on him as his weeknesess........... .



folks are forgetting that we run a ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME where a lineman has to be athletic., able to mirror, must have a GREAT kick slide [like james and turner] and be able to block on an island and athletic enogh to get off the line and into the second level FAST!!

if people will research the players we chose AND the ones we passed on and that so many were fixated on, they will find hickey made the RIGHT CHOICES on all these players. zone blocking scheme is not like a power scheme where you line up the biggest meat balls you can find and plug them in. you have to be able to do so much more in a zbs. this is why the broncos run blocking and pass pro was so good in alex gibbs zbs scheme, they were lighter and fast and athletic and could block on the move and flatten guys at the second level. that scheme is what made EVERY RB on the broncos roster a pro bowler. and why elway stayed so clean. benton's scheme is based on that.

hickey did NOT REACH for just any tackle left over. i think he would have passed on martin and moses. he passed on kuoandijo. reason? like the above traits mentioned for a zbs tackle, those guys didnt have them. they were the complete opposite of what we needed for a zbs tackle. REMEMBER: james was said to be coveted by miami weeks beofre the draft. there is even a thread about it here somewhere.

they got the guy they wanted, who fit the scheme to the tee and they didnt give away the rest of our draft and picks from next year [ala ireland] to do it!! the draft fell just about right for hickey, but not for most of the fans. the more i study this draft, the more i like it. EVERYONE IS LEAVING OUT OR JUST IGNORING OUR SCHEME and if they will keep that in mind and take a look at the scouting reports on those we took AND those we didnt, you will see what a great draft this was and why hickey chose who he did. some were need picks for sure, but, they were NOT blind reaches, they were the right players for the scheme.

thats what is important.

I think your right. In terms of overall value, I think we reached on a couple of picks, but in terms of scheme fit Hickey hit the nail on the head. I think he could have traded down in 1st and I hate the DE in 7th but as you said, the more you see it the more you like it

 

[jim1]

why would you think that MATEO? we run a zbs where you have to be athletic and able to get to the second level and lock on to your man and steer him where you need him to go.

go re read the draft reports. his weekness is getting to the second level and locking on his man. slow getting off. last thing you need for a zbs lineman. he is a power block scheme ot, period. plus, we already have an LT and moses would be a newby on the rt side. hickey wasnt going to do a project and close his eyes and hope for the best [see jeff ireland]. he feels he couldnt make mistakes rebuilding this line and the players he chose for the line HAD TO FIT THE SCHEME and had played the position. he was NEVER going moses. here is what one scouting report noted on him..... .




how exactly does he fit the zbs mateo? he is a HORRIBLE fit in our scheme. every trait an o-lineman needs in a zbs scheme are his WEAKNESSES!! they were never going moses weather james was there or not.


kuonandjio was even worse. many wanted him to but but he is sloooow getting off. one mags scout said he was often so slow getting into his block it was like he didnt know the snap counts. slow footed and not good at getting to the second level [most mags said that]. NOT a fit at zbs. PRO FOOTBALLS DRAFT MAG report said, "slow off the snap. to often choppy sliding into pass protection as if he doesnt know the snap count leading to all kinds of problems dealing with speed rushers. kick slide is short and sloppy and gets beat around the edge. ". doesnt get any worse for zbs scheme lineman. he was not getting chosen either. again, hickey made the right choice.... by NOT taking him.

people just keep ignoring the scheme we run. its not a plug and play like the big ugly meet balls are in a power scheme. you have to be athletic, get off the line and into the next level FAST and lock your man. like moses, he didnt come close to meeting what benton wants. people should appreciate that we have a staff now who THINKS. WHO ARE PRECISE and have a PLAN. ireland never got that. he never brought in guys that fit the scheme and thats why this line was so up and down all the time culminating in last years melt down. they are now bringing in guys who fit. and if you look at the scouting reports on james and turner and the TE lynch, they ALL share the same traits........., excellent feet. able to mirror defenders. quick of the snap. able to get to the second level quick and steer their man. athletic and tough.

thats NO coincidence. that was the plan and they got the guys who fit the scheme. if you go by what we needed and how hickey handled this draft, its a B+++. if a person is sore because we didnt take the players people wanted and expected, its a bust. but i will say again, this is going to go down as THE draft that was ground zero for the new era of the miami dolphins.

Is this from watching Kouandjio play or from reading draft magazines and projecting because of his slow 40 time? He's not nearly as slow getting out wide in his kickslide, off the snap or to the 2nd level as that article mentioned. Who wrote that? Better to watch him actually play at work out art the combine- the same writers had Kouandjio as a solid top 20 pick before the combine and the knee reports. Is he a perfect fit for a ZBS? No. Imo could he have functioned well in our system and is he all around a better player thatn Ju'Wuan James? Yes. He fell to right around where Cordy Glenn fell a couple of years ago and now the Bills have two bangers at OT.

What was worse and funnier was all of the people rambling on about how slow Jarvis Landry is because of the poor 40, as if he always looked slow playing, without realizing of the hamstring injury at the combine. Landry does not run or play 4.77 style when healthy, that's for sure. Too many general assumptions are made because of bad 40 times imo. The reports of Kouandjio being a slug are just ridiculous imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNedE4a0fhE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIHKWAhMvKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ftjlxQUD0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGJ-rp8zMvQ

 

[normaniii]

I like Kouandijio. I think overall he is a better player than James, but feel James is a better fit for what we run.

 

[BlueFin]

If you paid attention to Hickey's words...he saw an opportunity with Jarvis Landry...I think he saw with the wide receiver board falling like it did that he could trade down and still get Landry and have the ammo to still get up and get Turner.

 

[NRA]

The Cowboys wanted Aaron Donald or Ryan Shazier at #16 and took Zack Martin because he provided value there.

notthe point JIM. not what i meant.

the point is, everyone was surprised when the cowboys selected martin. there were still many good defensive players on the board and dallas needs a lot of defense.

yeah! martin was a good value at the spot, but again, no one had dallas picking martin or o-line in general. at that point, before the dallas pick, i am sure hickey thought he was going to fall to them. thats if they even would have taken him. at this point, i doubt they would have. james was the better fit in the zbs and was a natural rt. martin is a guard in 98% of nfl teams minds and hickey wanted a TRUE rt who fit the scheme.

and if thats how it would have gone, hickey would have made the right choice to take james.

 

[NRA]

UPDATE JIM:

after my post, i just saw on the afternoon version of NFL AM were the hosts were all saying it was a MAJOR suprise that the cowboys went o-line and went with martin.

they said the better player and bigger need was dee ford [i agree] and even kony ealy. they have no pass rush right now. big holes on defense. many even bought in to the johny football rumour and that would have been on track for jerry jones, plus there qb is 34 and getting older and more banged up by the minute.

that was my only point. to go up higher, up above the cowboys pic we would have had to give up most of our draft. couldnt do it. we need to many players. and when martin got to the dallas spot, they probably thought he was going to fall to them and there was no reason to trade. and thats IF they even wanted him and at this point i believe it still would have been james.

my point had nothing to do with martins value.

 

[NRA]

martin is a better player than James, bottom line.

in WHAT SCHEME jim? everyone seems to forget we are not a road grader scheme, were a zone block team and you have to have much more skills to play in that scheme.

and again, just about no one in the scouting mags had martin playing tackle in the nfl. 4 of my 6 mags have him listed in the guard pages, not tackle. they see him as guard because his feet and length are so bad.

BOTTOM LINE, james is the better player. martin is a guard and we needed a right tackle who could play in the zbs. PERIOD!!

 

[Shaman]

I don't think you ever move down with the idea that you can get one player later. IMO, that is just not wise. You move down when there are a group of players you like equally well and it doesn't matter to you which one you get. You move up when you have identified a player that stands out and you don't want to risk losing him.

This. It's one of the basic tenets of trading down.

If you're really targeting a particular player you either trade up for him or pick him where you are. The concept of reaching often gets overblown by fans and media.

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

i think Troy Niklas was the target in round 2. after he got gobbled up, we traded down.

I don't recall where Niklas went, but Amaro went one pick before Miami in the 2nd. I do believe we had a big bodied TE targeted as a red zone threat, and that we 'settled' for Landry there.

 

[NRA]

I like Kouandijio. I think overall he is a better player than James,

how? can you explain why he is the better player? what exactly makes him the "better player"?

compare the scouting reports for either the draft mags, both the strengths and weekneses. and like you said, james is the better fit for our scheme so doesnt that makes JAMES the better player?

james traits are feet, kick slide, ability to mirror defenders and sealing off the end rush. also getting into the second level fast and locking on to his man and steering him where he wants to to go.

dont know where you got that report but i would throw it in the trash and NEVER use it again. a couple mentioned he is a better pass blocker than run blocker at this point but he is a capable run blocker and its not that he is bad at it.

PRO FOOTBALLS DRAFT MAGreport on kouandijp said, "slow off the snap. to often choppy sliding into pass protection as if he doesnt know the snap count leading to all kinds of problems dealing with speed rushers. kick slide is short and sloppy and gets beat around the edge. ".

thats the guy you want? he fits the zbs? take everything the mags say about kouandijo and its the polar opposite for james. i will let you go do the scout research and strengths on james.

 

[greasyObnoxious]

I don't recall where Niklas went, but Amaro went one pick before Miami in the 2nd. I do believe we had a big bodied TE targeted as a red zone threat, and that we 'settled' for Landry there.

i just checked. Niklas actually went 2 spots after our original 2nd rounder, so there goes my theory. i agree though, IMO we targeted a big bodied TE in round 2, so it might have been Amaro.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Before the Miami Herald report a few weeks that Miami rated James as a 1st rd OT here's the percentage of people who saw James as better than Martin- zero. Before the Barry Jackson story came out iirc I saw one guy mention James as a potential Dolphin's 1st rd pick, in a trade down to squeeze some value out of the reach. I'm not a big fan of the Mosely pick either, but I think that Newsome was spot on wth the OT position in the draft this year. martin is a better player tha James, bottom line. At Tackle, at Guard, and Center, take your pick. He's better at run blocking, better at pass blocking and people like to sound smart by talking about his arm length when they're all of one inch shorter than Taylor Lewan's.

My best guess is that James will be for Miami what he is and what we need at RT- solid and steady. Imo we should have traded down if he was the targets, the contrary arguments don;t interest me. The target at #29 and below was Brandin Cooks, then Johnny Manziel. The market was there for an easy extra 3rd, we didn't take it. Then we traded a 4th to take an athletic LT to play OG. I'm ok with the draft, I'm ok with James, but bottom line we could have had the same draft and EASILY added OG Trai Turner, a true Guard, and WR Martavis Bryant to the haul. That's not as much wishful thinking as obvious realities- a couple of teams were looking to drop a 3rd quicker than panties on prom night and the trade up to get Billy Turner struck me as unecessary. Billy Turner struck me as a very talented but raw Tackle to be given a year or two to mature, not a player to move to Guard. We'll see what happens, but personally I would have drafted Trai Turner over Billy Turner, especially if filling a need at OG was my goal.

That's not true. You and I have discussed Martin's ability to play OT in the past, and I made it pretty clear that I don't view him as a good OT prospect. You disagree, and that's fine. But it has nothing to do with James coming to Miami. If I REALLY cared who Miami drafted and let it impact my view on players, I'd have quit caring about football altogether.