Should McGwire be in the Hall of Fame?

[Ray Finkle]

That was the juiced ball year if you remember(I am not sure how old you are). In 1986 the leaders hit 40, 35, 34, 33 and 33 HRs while in 1987 the leaders hit 49(McGwire and Andre Dawson and dawson only hit above 30 Hrs TWICE in his career and this was his only 40+ season and he almost hit 50),47, and 5 guys hit 34 HRs then in '88 HRs went down again to 42, 34, 3228 and 28.

From 1986-1994 McGwire hit a HR once every 14 ABs, from 1995-2001 he hit a HR every 7 ABs. he did this by just learning the strike zone better? By watching video? come on. Up through 1995 he came close to hitting 50 HRs ONE time and that was the juiced ball year then he's hitting 52, 58, 70, 65?

I am sure he just worked really, reallt hard in the 2nd half of his career

And how do we know none of those pitchers McGwire faced were juicing as well? Therefore can't we assume the playing field was "even" at times?

 

[BAMAPHIN 22]

McGwire's Hall hopes rest on confession

A confession would liberate Mark McGwire, increasing his chances of redemption by an ever-forgiving public, not to mention the 10-year members of the Baseball Writers Association of America who vote for the Hall of Fame.


A confession would end the talk that McGwire is hiding something, forcing voters to view him for what he is  a product of his era, the Steroid Era, and hardly the only star player suspected of using illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

But a confession, if it is indeed warranted, is not coming anytime soon; the risk for McGwire, at a time when federal investigators are still trying to crack the steroids scandal, would be too great.

Thus, McGwire's induction to the Hall remains on hold, perhaps permanently.
His first year of eligibility produced the expected result: McGwire received 23.5 percent of the vote, far short of the 75 percent required for election.

While the vote can be interpreted as a sharp rebuke to McGwire, who was considered a first-ballot lock as recently as three years ago, it is in no way a fatal blow to his candidacy.

Players remain on the ballot a maximum of 15 years, and reliever Bruce Sutter and outfielder Billy Williams are Hall of Famers whose initial results were comparable to McGwire's.

Sutter received only 24 percent of the vote in his first year of eligibility and waited 13 years to get elected. Williams received only 23.3 percent of the vote in his first year and was elected on his sixth try.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6351322?FSO1&ATT=HCP&GT1=9012

 

[Boik14]

:shakeno: (court of public opinion) Thats a great "we all know" prosecution approach.

Even if he didnt use steroids:

His Ba is only a small notch above above the Kingman level, still relatively poor by HOF standards at 263.

He only had 4-5 great seasons. You need more consistancy then that to be a HOFER.

He never won an MVP

He won 1 Gold Glove back in 1990 and for is career he was only average for the position.

His teams in Oakland had some postseason success, he personally did not. 217 career BA in the postseason. Even his power stats dropped considerably in the postseason wit just 5 hr in 129 abs, well below the 1hr/11-12 abs he averaged during the regular season.

He did not have great rbi numbers relative to his 583 hrs. That tells you as much as anything hes 1 dimensional. 7 100 rbi seasons out of 16 is good not great. Career hes got more K's then RBI.

So no I wouldnt put a 1 dimensional hr hitter who really doesnt do much of anything else better then average in the HOF.

Edit: Upon thinking about it further Id sooner put in Andre Dawson or Jack Morris. Dawson was a much more complete player, brought a more complete skill set as an all around player (better BA, better rbi numbers, better sb, better D) or even Morris who posts both impressive win and ws rings. Morris won rings as the ace of 3 different teams and with 254 wins he boasts an impressive total there as well considering his was the first generation with 5 starters in the rotation instead of 4. This isnt even a real question imo.

Rawlings even admitted that the baseballs used in 99 were more juiced then ever which, forgetting about whether mac did roids or not, impacts the hr totals for every player that year.

 

[nyjunc]

And how do we know none of those pitchers McGwire faced were juicing as well? Therefore can't we assume the playing field was "even" at times?

Maybe, that's a fir point but w/ or w/o steroids I don't think he was ever a great player. canseco was a much better player than Mcgwire and he'll never get in.

 

[phunwin]

The following is the list of MLB rules McGwire broke as a player...


Here's that same list in Spanish...


...and in Japanese....



Until someone can show me that McGwire broke a rule that was in place at the time he was a player, I see no reason to keep him out of the HOF. Did he use performance-enhancing drugs? Probably, but they were entirely legal at the time. We're going to punish him after the fact for simply taking advantage of the rules that were in place at the time? Tin pot dictators apply more reasonable standards of justice than that.

Amphetamine usage has been as common as dirt in MLB history. Like steroids, amphetamines are also an illegal drug for which there was nothing written in MLB's drug policy. Like steroids, amphetamines also are taken with the goal of increasing performance (quicker reaction time). Should we purge the HOF of suspected amphetamine users? Because if we keep McGwire out because of the fact that he may or may not have used steroids, we'd better be consistent.

Incidentally, Rose and Jackson are entirely different cases than McGwire. Rose gambled on baseball. Whether you believe that's acceptable or not is immaterial; it's explicitly prohibited. As for Jackson, there's a mountain of proof that he took money from gamblers to throw the 1919 World Series. The fact that he his .385 in that series is immaterial; it's taking the money to throw the series that keeps him properly on the banned list.

As for his stats as a player, McGwire belongs. Was he a defensive liability for most of his career? Sure. Of course, since we've already more or less discounted the value of defense at first base in HOF balloting (as evidenced by the fact that Keith Hernandez has fallen off the ballot entirely), that shouldn't be counted against him. McGwire produced a mountain of runs. 7th on the all-time home run list and a .394 OBP and a .983 OPS (13th all-time). He was a 12-time all-star, and definitely passes the "pitchers were scared to death of him" test that Red Sox fans rely on for Jim Rice's candidacy.

We'll see if he gets in; I'm not so sure. Personally, I think some of this pompous moral outrage will subside over the years as some of these attention-starved columnists move on to other subjects upon which to try and enforce their back-asswards brand of morality on the rest of us. But his first time showing was extremely weak (he didn't even crack 25%), and that doesn't bode well for him.

 

[nyjunc]

What about laws he broke?


Anyway, I don't think he's a HOF player even w/ steroids. he is a glorified Dave Kingman, McGwire was NEVER a great player he was a great HR hitter just like Kingman. Put kingman on steroids and you have Mcgwire. He rarely played in big games and when he did he was bad. the man has just 5 Hrs in 129 career postseason ABs and is a lifetime .217 postseason hitter. mcGwire was a freak show and that's it, he could hit the ball a mile(drug aided) and that's it.

 

[phunwin]

What about laws he broke?

What about them? I'm pretty sure amphetamines are illegal in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The difference between steroids and amphetamines in this discussion is nil.

If we're taking guys out for breaking the law, how about taking out Juan Marichal? He committed assault on John Roseboro, with about 50,000 witnesses present. Or Nolan Ryan, for beating the crap out of Robin Ventura? Or any player who ever got in a fight in a bar? How about removing Mickey Mantle for a few hundred instances of public intoxication (and probably drunk driving, too)? By the time we're done with this witch hunt, we'll have about 15 guys in the Hall.

Anyway, I don't think he's a HOF player even w/ steroids. he is a glorified Dave Kingman, McGwire was NEVER a great player he was a great HR hitter just like Kingman. Put kingman on steroids and you have Mcgwire. He rarely played in big games and when he did he was bad. the man has just 5 Hrs in 129 career postseason ABs and is a lifetime .217 postseason hitter. mcGwire was a freak show and that's it, he could hit the ball a mile(drug aided) and that's it.

Good call. I mean, there's only 96 points of on base percentage and 110 points of slugging percentage worth of difference there.

 

[BigDogsHunt]

The following is the list of MLB rules McGwire broke as a player...

Here's that same list in Spanish...

...and in Japanese.....

nice to see you are still in the "World Baseball Classic" spirit!

 

[DuderinoN703]

:shakeno: (court of public opinion) Thats a great "we all know" prosecution approach.

Obviously none of us know the TRUE answer to whether he's a doper but you would take a look at the evidence (his body from the 80s to today and his Congress hearing) and form an opinion on it.

Sure he hit a bunch of HRs but as others have said, his defense was shoddy and he was one dimensional.

He'll probably get in at some point, just not the next few years

 

[Enforcerfin33]

Cheating is cheating, but MLB doesnt see it that way, its all on if your publicly known to do it or not. But yes eventually he will be in.

 

[BigDogsHunt]

Obviously none of us know the TRUE answer to whether he's a doper but you would take a look at the evidence (his body from the 80s to today and his Congress hearing) and form an opinion on it.

Sure he hit a bunch of HRs but as others have said, his defense was shoddy and he was one dimensional.

He'll probably get in at some point, just not the next few years

Hard to argue, as I stated earlier....What I wonder is when all this "juiced era" is swept under a rug, and congressional or grand jury stuff plays out.....with no proof for anyone....all speculation...do the voters ever relent and have a "special" year where Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are all voted in on the same year....label it the black-armband-type HoF year.

 

[djfresh47]

McGwire should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame.

The whole he cheated so he shouldn't go in is such a weak excuse for several reasons. First how do you know he cheated? Yes we all assume (and yes I believe he did juice) but he never failed a drug test nor was steroids illegal in baseball at the time (and if it was in 1998 there would be no way MLB would let him fail a test). Also adding to the fact that he was facing pitchers would were probably jucing too. Other HOFers have cheated before, like Perry and Cobb. Rose not being in the Hall is different, he could have negatively affected his own team and cost his own team baseball games because of gambling (something Cobb was rumored to do as well).

McGwire saved baseball along with Sosa and Ripken from the strike. He had EVERYONE glued to their seats in 1998. He was one of the best HR hitters during his era which he played. He hit 49 HRs in his Rookie year, winning the ROTY award. He was a gold glove winner, had a career OBP of .394. Anyway Jason Stark wrote two good article on why Big Mac should be in, which talks about other stats McGwire had:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724111

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2724114

Also Bill Simmons did too:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070103

I suggest everyone read them. He's going to get in sooner or later and deserves to be.

EDIT: Also I think baseball gets a bad rap. In the NFL a player could get suspended for 4 games for testing positive, possibly win Defensive Player of the Year, make and play in the Pro Bowl and be part of a playoff game half time show and no one makes a stink about it.

I've said in this in other threads. We assume guilt of all baseball players but then we believe Merriman when he is basically using the same excuse "I have never knowingly used steroids." I think more football players are using performance enhancing drugs but nobody will ever know. HGH testing is brought up in relation to baseball yet the NFL does not test either and I never hear a word about that. He's got the numbers and as much as people want to bash him now, he was the reason many people came back to baseball. He never tested positive which is why I think he gets in.

 

[phunwin]

[/B]

I've said in this in other threads. We assume guilt of all baseball players but then we believe Merriman when he is basically using the same excuse "I have never knowingly used steroids." I think more football players are using performance enhancing drugs but nobody will ever know. HGH testing is brought up in relation to baseball yet the NFL does not test either and I never hear a word about that. He's got the numbers and as much as people want to bash him now, he was the reason many people came back to baseball. He never tested positive which is why I think he gets in.

You make some good points. Unfortunately, they're almost certainly lost on more than 25% of BBWAA voters. The fact that McGwire has never once tested positive, nor has he ever been accused by even his harshest detractors of breaking any rule that was in the game during his playing years, is not enough for them. They'd rather take Jose Canseco's book for all the proof they require.

It's amazing; I always figured Canseco was probably a functional illiterate, and yet, he's turning into the Bob Woodward of his time. Go figure.

Incidentally, there's definitely a double standard between baseball and football, but I think it's due to a few things. First, the NFL has historically had a more stringent drug policy, so we see players get punished by missing time, and move on. In baseball, there's that lingering doubt, so pompous newspaper writers take it upon themselves to dole out punishment in cases like this, and hard evidence be damned. Second, MLB has historically been held to a higher standard of ethics than football (college and pro), fairly or not.

 

[Boik14]

You make some good points. Unfortunately, they're almost certainly lost on more than 25% of BBWAA voters. The fact that McGwire has never once tested positive, nor has he ever been accused by even his harshest detractors of breaking any rule that was in the game during his playing years, is not enough for them. They'd rather take Jose Canseco's book for all the proof they require.

It's amazing; I always figured Canseco was probably a functional illiterate, and yet, he's turning into the Bob Woodward of his time. Go figure.

Incidentally, there's definitely a double standard between baseball and football, but I think it's due to a few things. First, the NFL has historically had a more stringent drug policy, so we see players get punished by missing time, and move on. In baseball, there's that lingering doubt, so pompous newspaper writers take it upon themselves to dole out punishment in cases like this, and hard evidence be damned. Second, MLB has historically been held to a higher standard of ethics than football (college and pro), fairly or not.

It is fair they get held to a higher standard of ethics because they have had more problems upholding the integrity of their sport. Gambling, rascism (fairly or not is most associated with baseball, people forget about hoops and football during that era), steroids, etc. You dont hear about those things as much in any other sport. So yeah, you need more stringent guidelines and if the sport themselves wont hold their players to those guidelines im happy some members of the press will. We have to take in to account who is watching those games, what kids and even adults will have a misconception of right/wrong and fair or unfair in sports if the league doesnt do it. I love baseball too much to see it from any other perspective then from a purist perspective.

 

[djfresh47]

You make some good points. Unfortunately, they're almost certainly lost on more than 25% of BBWAA voters. The fact that McGwire has never once tested positive, nor has he ever been accused by even his harshest detractors of breaking any rule that was in the game during his playing years, is not enough for them. They'd rather take Jose Canseco's book for all the proof they require.

It's amazing; I always figured Canseco was probably a functional illiterate, and yet, he's turning into the Bob Woodward of his time. Go figure.

Incidentally, there's definitely a double standard between baseball and football, but I think it's due to a few things. First, the NFL has historically had a more stringent drug policy, so we see players get punished by missing time, and move on. In baseball, there's that lingering doubt, so pompous newspaper writers take it upon themselves to dole out punishment in cases like this, and hard evidence be damned. Second, MLB has historically been held to a higher standard of ethics than football (college and pro), fairly or not.

Rafael Palmeiro made Jose Canseco a credible source. One can look at it saying "he named him so everybody else is guilty," or "he's trying to see what actually sticks." The funny thing about 'roids is that subconsciously he admit guilt of some guys yet others nobody would ever even try to accuse. If fans want to admit guilt on everybody for baseball than "golden boys," like Griffey and Jeter gotta be considered guilty before innocent. I think it's ridiculous but I also think voters holding guys off ballots because others did not get in on the first time is ridiculous.