DrAstroZoom
Bon vivant
Why not?
Does a pitcher have any more to do with whether his team wins or loses than a quarterback? I would argue no.
Should wins be attributed to QB's only?
- Thread starter uncle_joe
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Why not?
Does a pitcher have any more to do with whether his team wins or loses than a quarterback? I would argue no.
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
I don't get that argument myself.
A pitcher plays half the game and doesn't even participate in the offensive portion of the game in the AL. In the NL, few pitchers actually participate in the offense more than a couple of times a year (with obvious exceptions like Mike Hampton). Pitchers do not have complete control over runs scoring -- they have to depend on 8 other guys doing their job. Doesn't this really sound a lot like the situation a QB is in?
A pitcher plays half the game and doesn't even participate in the offensive portion of the game in the AL. In the NL, few pitchers actually participate in the offense more than a couple of times a year (with obvious exceptions like Mike Hampton). Pitchers do not have complete control over runs scoring -- they have to depend on 8 other guys doing their job. Doesn't this really sound a lot like the situation a QB is in?
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
If there is anything that disgusts me, it is people saying that Harrison is only good because of Manning. If that's the case, why the hell have the Colts had such troubles establishing any other receiving threat prior to this year? Marvin Harrison is a crazy good talent, and it is wrong that he gets overshadowed just because he's not the press whore that Moss or Owens are. Did you see the catch he made against the Titans?
DrAstroZoom
Bon vivant
Harrison is, hands down, the best WR in the NFL IMO. Incredible hands, nice speed and absolutely no attitudinal baggage.
hunter5nc1
Practice Squad
He!! NO that's why it's a TEAM sport!!
T-Bone
Practice Squad
I am with you 100% on that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:up:
Lamar Smith
Someone has probably pointed this out, but 2000 was Lamar's good year. Even then he only averaged 3.7 yards a carry. In 2001 he was one of the worst-performing starting tailbacks in the NFL. I was pretty impressed with Fiedler that year.
Someone has probably pointed this out, but 2000 was Lamar's good year. Even then he only averaged 3.7 yards a carry. In 2001 he was one of the worst-performing starting tailbacks in the NFL. I was pretty impressed with Fiedler that year.
I think that would be a tough argument to make. A pitcher is in complete control of every pitch against every batter. He needs no blocking, and there is no running game to take the pressure off what he needs to do.
There's really little comparison. The 'winning record' of QBs is way different.
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
The best pitcher in the world still needs 7 good defenders behind him and a good catcher in front of him. Beyond that, he needs good strategy from the coaching staff and gets relieved these days after around 2/3rds of the game. We haven't even talked about what the pitcher needs out of the offense that he has no control over.
Now that we're talking about it, I think the QB deserves just as much credit for W/L as pitchers do if not more. A good QB is the only QB who will be playing for his team on a given day. A good pitcher these days is still giving way to at least a set up guy and a closer on almost every night...
Now that we're talking about it, I think the QB deserves just as much credit for W/L as pitchers do if not more. A good QB is the only QB who will be playing for his team on a given day. A good pitcher these days is still giving way to at least a set up guy and a closer on almost every night...
DrAstroZoom
Bon vivant
In addition, the QB handles the ball on every offensive play and is responsible for communicating the play to the rest of the team.
uncle_joe
Practice Squad
A pitcher is fully responsible for every run given up in a game, even at blame a little bit for runs scored as result of an error(he did, afterall, allow the batter to hit the ball). A QB can rely upon his defense to score some points for him. Defense cannot score runs in baseball. If the pitcher gives up one run, he knows he may have lost the game if his offense does not act.
You say a pitcher is only as good as the other 8 guys on the field; I give you the Diamondbacks in 2001. Totally carried by Johnson and Schilling w/o much talent around them. A pitcher cannot depend upon other players. The centerfielder will not always make the dazzling play and the catcher will not always throw out the guy trying to steal second. The pitcher is basically alone.
QB's have an offensive line to protect them, a running game to take heat off of their arms(well, most do), dependency upon receivers w/ good hands and the hope that their defense will score some points as well. QB's may be bigger leaders but pitchers carry a heavier load.
At least, I think that.
You say a pitcher is only as good as the other 8 guys on the field; I give you the Diamondbacks in 2001. Totally carried by Johnson and Schilling w/o much talent around them. A pitcher cannot depend upon other players. The centerfielder will not always make the dazzling play and the catcher will not always throw out the guy trying to steal second. The pitcher is basically alone.
QB's have an offensive line to protect them, a running game to take heat off of their arms(well, most do), dependency upon receivers w/ good hands and the hope that their defense will score some points as well. QB's may be bigger leaders but pitchers carry a heavier load.
At least, I think that.
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
A winning/losing pitcher isn't responsible for every run given up in a game. Indeed, he might only be responsible for 1/3 of an inning (if he came on in relief) or as little as 5 innings for a winning starting pitcher. This argument is really rather laughable in light of that little detail, isn't it?
Also, wasn't your original premise that Jay isn't deserving of being praised for Wins because the defense did all the work? How is that any different than 100% of AL pitchers who don't contribute to a single bit of offense they get (in the NL, a pitcher only contributes in any way to runs scored probably 5% of the time, but that opportunity is there). Why should any member of the Yankees get credit for any wins when they have Soriano, Jeter, Williams, Posada and the rest driving in so many runs for them? I guess the guys in Cooperstown don't have to rush those Clemens induction plans because he didn't really get to 300...
Also, wasn't your original premise that Jay isn't deserving of being praised for Wins because the defense did all the work? How is that any different than 100% of AL pitchers who don't contribute to a single bit of offense they get (in the NL, a pitcher only contributes in any way to runs scored probably 5% of the time, but that opportunity is there). Why should any member of the Yankees get credit for any wins when they have Soriano, Jeter, Williams, Posada and the rest driving in so many runs for them? I guess the guys in Cooperstown don't have to rush those Clemens induction plans because he didn't really get to 300...
No.
If the QB plays horribly, but his secondary gets a couple of interceptions and takes them back for TDs, and the team wins 14-0, is the QB going to get the win? The QB does NOTHING to stop the other team from scoring points, unlike a pitcher in baseball or the other sports figure that gets wins....goalies. To me, wins is a defensive statistic. Otherwise, we'd give the win to the guy that hits the game winning homer or scores the goal in overtime.
If the QB plays horribly, but his secondary gets a couple of interceptions and takes them back for TDs, and the team wins 14-0, is the QB going to get the win? The QB does NOTHING to stop the other team from scoring points, unlike a pitcher in baseball or the other sports figure that gets wins....goalies. To me, wins is a defensive statistic. Otherwise, we'd give the win to the guy that hits the game winning homer or scores the goal in overtime.
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uncle_joe
Practice Squad
Originally posted by Jimmy James
A winning/losing pitcher isn't responsible for every run given up in a game. Indeed, he might only be responsible for 1/3 of an inning (if he came on in relief) or as little as 5 innings for a winning starting pitcher. This argument is really rather laughable in light of that little detail, isn't it?
Also, wasn't your original premise that Jay isn't deserving of being praised for Wins because the defense did all the work? How is that any different than 100% of AL pitchers who don't contribute to a single bit of offense they get (in the NL, a pitcher only contributes in any way to runs scored probably 5% of the time, but that opportunity is there). Why should any member of the Yankees get credit for any wins when they have Soriano, Jeter, Williams, Posada and the rest driving in so many runs for them? I guess the guys in Cooperstown don't have to rush those Clemens induction plans because he didn't really get to 300...
I'm a Red Sox fan, I see no problem in taking away those Yankee titles
A backup QB could come in on the finaol play of the game and win the game for his team, earning himself the victory, as a repky to your 'laughable' statement.
I used Jay as an example, the point was I don't think wins should be given to any individuals in football but few have followed the criteria...
You say that AL pitchers don't contribute to the offense...well, QB's are not responsible for giving up points to the other team. At least, they're not supposed to be, unless a pick is returned for a TD. Besides, I don't believe in the idea of batting pitchers because they are almost an automatic out.
It is the pitchers fault if he gives up runs unless a really dumb error occurs. QB's don't carry the burden of starting pitchers.
You don't see wins attributed to Michael Jordan; he is merely mentioned as being part of a bunch of teams that won over 60 games including a record 72 win season. But those are not attributed to him, nor should they be. Goalies and pitchers deserve for wins to be attributed to them; no one in football does. Pitchers and goalies are defense, they maintain the score/lead. QB's can pad the lead, but they are not the reason a team wins, unless it is a ridiculous offense w/ a terrible defense. Even then it is very rarely the result of just the QB.
Some QB's I can give wins to. Dan Marino and Brett Favre immediately come to mind. Neither of them had much in their careers but made it work. Even when Favre won the Super Bowl in 96, it wasn't a great assembly of talent. It was Favre's doing(w/ a good D, of course).
But are you telling me that when Baltimore went on their streak of how ever many games w/o an offensive TD in 2000(yet had a good record during it, even though Miami-on Dan Marino night, no less-beat them soundly), you still give those wins to Dilfer and not the D? That is flawed reasoning.
EDIT: In the New England game, the Patriots D scored more points than the offense, including NO points by Brady(although, it can be argued that Fiedler deserves the win for sucking so incredibly hard that game but I digress). However, Brady gets the win. You see that as being right?
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DolfanF150
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YOU ARE DEAD WRONG. 2000 was Lamar's his best year he sucked in 2001. Fiedler really did carry are offense in 2001 like it or not. I can remember even NFL tonight debating and agreeing that Jay was carrying the offense. We had 5 or 6 4th quarter comebacks that season and only lost the division title because this defense, that everybody loves and never criticizes, let us down when it counted most (@ New England). We gave up a 40+ yard completion from Kevin Faulk to TOM BRADY and a 44 yard run to ANTOWAIN SMITH when the season was on the line. Jay was leading a major comeback in that game when Wanny finally gave up on the run but Jed Weaver and Lamar Smith fumbles killed us.