Simple reasons why Ireland needs to be fired.
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Dthrill_08
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Thanks for reminding me why we need him. You said it yourself he brought in players in Free Agency and spent well on FA. He addressed all our needs man what more do you want. We needed/wanted a seam TE we get Keller but ofcourse it is Irelands fault for him getting injured. We needed WR get sign Wallace and Gibson. Did you forget about Gibson? We needed CB help we kept Patterson (which everyone is riding the bandwagon) and signs Grimes, needed DE help we get Jordan which yet full healthy still shows us he can be a big star. We needed OL help and we sign Clabo which was a probowler and one of the better ranked RT. We have a 4 game skid and we get Mckinnie.
All you have showed me from his past drafts is we got some stars already and some above average starters (Olivier Vernon)
Ireland has shown to be really good at selecting mediocre talent, there are very few players drafted that would be in demand by most teams except his first round picks which were no worse than mid 1st picks. There is not one Star to be found and some of the one's who have performed are no longer with the team, why develop talent without managing the resources properly to actually build around it?
FearTheBeard
FearTheBurke
First off it's asinine to judge a guy on these drafts. First off the first one we're consulting was a shared drafts with the Tuna (argue if you want but he's made a clear change in philosophy over the last 3 or 4). Then you want to judge 3 drafts that we still haven't had enough time to evaluate. BUT I will bite for the sake of it, because I truly believe nobody actually compares other draft classes and assume everyone's supposed to hit on all their picks. So lets look at 2010, 2011 and 2012 (I love the '13 draft, but we can't jump to conclusions, especially with so many early injuries to key picks).
2010
Jared Odrick: Key player on our DL, he's really playing at a probowl level this year.
Koa Misi: Nothing spectacular for a 2nd rounder, but a key contributor, can't hate on a pick when he's been a starter for 2 years
John Jerry: Starter at RG, pretty weak point on the line but still a guy I consider replacement level.
Carroll: Has slowly developed into a capable nickel corner who can start in a pinch. Big jump from last year to this.
Reshad Jones: Probowl safety, struggling a bit this year in the blitzing scheme but he's got the talent to adjust.
Austin Spitler: Special teams contributor, reserve linebacker.
So there's draft 1, 8 picks, 6!!!! that are still on the roster. 4 Starters, and a nickelback.
2011
Mike Pouncey: Top 2 center in football.
Daniel Thomas: A bust of a pick, but still on the roster in a change of pace role.
Charles Clay: Has really broken out this year as a guy who has a very bright future as a move TE.
Jimmy Wilson: Decent reserve defensive back who is asked to do a fair amount considering his role.
So here's draft 2, 6 picks, 4 contributors. One being a probowl center, not the best but with fewer picks we still have 4 guys from it on the roster.
2012 (this is where it gets even better)
Ryan Tannehill: Franchise QB
Jon Martin: *****
Olivier Vernon: Starting DE who has showed very nice flashes this year.
Michael Egnew: This is a bust, but he has a chance to make himself worth something, has shown a bit this year.
Lamar Miller: Starting RB, personally a big fan especially when we find him some thunder.
Rishard Mathews: Looked very good this year and how well he continues to fill in for Gibson will be worth monitoring.
Kheeston Randall: I know he isn't on the team anymore, but I've always liked him. If not for our deep rotation he's another good pick.
So that's 9 picks, we get a franchise QB, a starting DE, a starting RB, and what was a pretty poor RT. But end of the day you have 5 key contributors.
Now lets look at someone who isn't Bellichek, how about the Packers? I'm gonna go in more depth when I can but really I'd love to see some substance from people rather than just posting his drafts and saying "he sucks". Cheers!
2010
1. BRYAN BULAGA, T, Iowa, 23
2. MIKE NEAL, DE, Purdue, 56
3. MORGAN BURNETT, S, Georgia Tech, 71
5a. ANDREW QUARLESS, TE, Penn State, 154
5b. MARSHALL NEWHOUSE, T/G, Texas Christian, 169
6. JAMES STARKS, RB, Buffalo, 193
7. C.J. WILSON, DE, East Carolina, 230
2011
1. DEREK SHERROD, T, Mississippi State, 32
2. RANDALL COBB, WR, Kentucky, 64
3. ALEX GREEN, RB, Hawaii, 96
4. DAVON HOUSE, CB, New Mexico State, 131
5. D.J. WILLIAMS, TE, Arkansas, 141
6a. CALEB SCHLAUDERAFF, G, Utah, 179
6b. D.J. SMITH, LB, Appalachian State, 186
6c. RICKY ELMORE, LB, Arizona, 197
7a. RYAN TAYLOR, TE, North Carolina, 218
7b. LAWRENCE GUY, DE, Arizona State, 233
2012
April 26-28, 2012; Drafted 28th
1. NICK PERRY, LB, Southern California, 28
2a. JEREL WORTHY, DE, Michigan State, 51
2. (to Philadelphia Eagles in draft-day trade), 59
2b. CASEY HAYWARD, CB, Vanderbilt, 62
3. (to New England Patriots in draft-day trade), 90
4. (to Philadelphia Eagles in draft-day trade), 123
4a. MIKE DANIELS, DT, Iowa, 132
4b. JERRON McMILLIAN, S, Maine, 133
5. TERRELL MANNING, LB, North Carolina State, 163
7a. ANDREW DATKO, T, Florida State, 241
7b. B.J. COLEMAN, QB, Tennessee-Chattanooga, 243
2010
Jared Odrick: Key player on our DL, he's really playing at a probowl level this year.
Koa Misi: Nothing spectacular for a 2nd rounder, but a key contributor, can't hate on a pick when he's been a starter for 2 years
John Jerry: Starter at RG, pretty weak point on the line but still a guy I consider replacement level.
Carroll: Has slowly developed into a capable nickel corner who can start in a pinch. Big jump from last year to this.
Reshad Jones: Probowl safety, struggling a bit this year in the blitzing scheme but he's got the talent to adjust.
Austin Spitler: Special teams contributor, reserve linebacker.
So there's draft 1, 8 picks, 6!!!! that are still on the roster. 4 Starters, and a nickelback.
2011
Mike Pouncey: Top 2 center in football.
Daniel Thomas: A bust of a pick, but still on the roster in a change of pace role.
Charles Clay: Has really broken out this year as a guy who has a very bright future as a move TE.
Jimmy Wilson: Decent reserve defensive back who is asked to do a fair amount considering his role.
So here's draft 2, 6 picks, 4 contributors. One being a probowl center, not the best but with fewer picks we still have 4 guys from it on the roster.
2012 (this is where it gets even better)
Ryan Tannehill: Franchise QB
Jon Martin: *****
Olivier Vernon: Starting DE who has showed very nice flashes this year.
Michael Egnew: This is a bust, but he has a chance to make himself worth something, has shown a bit this year.
Lamar Miller: Starting RB, personally a big fan especially when we find him some thunder.
Rishard Mathews: Looked very good this year and how well he continues to fill in for Gibson will be worth monitoring.
Kheeston Randall: I know he isn't on the team anymore, but I've always liked him. If not for our deep rotation he's another good pick.
So that's 9 picks, we get a franchise QB, a starting DE, a starting RB, and what was a pretty poor RT. But end of the day you have 5 key contributors.
Now lets look at someone who isn't Bellichek, how about the Packers? I'm gonna go in more depth when I can but really I'd love to see some substance from people rather than just posting his drafts and saying "he sucks". Cheers!
2010
1. BRYAN BULAGA, T, Iowa, 23
2. MIKE NEAL, DE, Purdue, 56
3. MORGAN BURNETT, S, Georgia Tech, 71
5a. ANDREW QUARLESS, TE, Penn State, 154
5b. MARSHALL NEWHOUSE, T/G, Texas Christian, 169
6. JAMES STARKS, RB, Buffalo, 193
7. C.J. WILSON, DE, East Carolina, 230
2011
1. DEREK SHERROD, T, Mississippi State, 32
2. RANDALL COBB, WR, Kentucky, 64
3. ALEX GREEN, RB, Hawaii, 96
4. DAVON HOUSE, CB, New Mexico State, 131
5. D.J. WILLIAMS, TE, Arkansas, 141
6a. CALEB SCHLAUDERAFF, G, Utah, 179
6b. D.J. SMITH, LB, Appalachian State, 186
6c. RICKY ELMORE, LB, Arizona, 197
7a. RYAN TAYLOR, TE, North Carolina, 218
7b. LAWRENCE GUY, DE, Arizona State, 233
2012
April 26-28, 2012; Drafted 28th
1. NICK PERRY, LB, Southern California, 28
2a. JEREL WORTHY, DE, Michigan State, 51
2. (to Philadelphia Eagles in draft-day trade), 59
2b. CASEY HAYWARD, CB, Vanderbilt, 62
3. (to New England Patriots in draft-day trade), 90
4. (to Philadelphia Eagles in draft-day trade), 123
4a. MIKE DANIELS, DT, Iowa, 132
4b. JERRON McMILLIAN, S, Maine, 133
5. TERRELL MANNING, LB, North Carolina State, 163
7a. ANDREW DATKO, T, Florida State, 241
7b. B.J. COLEMAN, QB, Tennessee-Chattanooga, 243
flynryan15
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Dthrill_08
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Great post! Randall Cobb is a good player but we don't know if a different scheme he would have success. It also depends on coaching your draft picks and prepare them. I am sure if you look at more drafts from other teams you will see ours is not even in the bottom 10 of drafts.
And one for you and your buddies' LoveIreland threads.
FearTheBeard
FearTheBurke
We don't constantly praise him or make threads about how much we love Ireland. Most of the pro-Ireland talk comes up in one of the 5 daily threads about firing him...
PhinSoldia
Miami Dolphin Columnist in the Making
yes please...they are incredibly counter productive
The one good thing I get from all the Fireland threads is how honored I am. How honored I am to be around such brilliant draft guru's, personnel geniuses, business moguls, negotiation experts, scouting prodigies, PR execs, omnipotent mediums, and just all together perfect group of MENSA card carrying NFL savants. If only we could have you in the FO....if only
My main problem with Ireland and the evaluation process with the players is that keep missing character issues with the players. The two most glaring examples are Martin and Incognito. Martin has been labeled as soft all the way from his high school coach. Also how can you not notice that he does not look at players in eye? An observation from several players that played with him. He has the physical talent, but his mental commitment has been questioned.
Incognito has been kicked off four teams for anger issues, that who you are bringing into a young locker room.
And he kicked off Marshal and Davis, are their character worse than Incognito?
Incognito has been kicked off four teams for anger issues, that who you are bringing into a young locker room.
And he kicked off Marshal and Davis, are their character worse than Incognito?
FearTheBeard
FearTheBurke
Alright so I'm intrigued about this debate, because I really don't think people look around the league before assuming the grass is always greener. So here's what I've put together, to compare teams (might do more teams but this is a sample). It's very arbitrary, but it weights each based on the round a guy was drafted and the expectation for that draft slot. If you hit on the high picks you will be in very good shape, hit on some low round picks and you will exceed expectations easier and score higher. I'm going to compare the Dolphins to the Packers, it's very much a work in progress and I'm only marginal with #'s but here's what I find (obviously I only know so much about the Packers so a lot of this is reports I've read mixed with PFF and how much of an impact they've had on their team).
So for example you draft a guy like Olivier Vernon int the 3rd round. His expectation is he's an NFL starter and he has met that but then in my opinion he's been slighly above expectations so he gets a 7/10 grade. Convert it to the weighted 18 and you'll get 12.6/18.
Grading scale
Expectation (RND) How well they have reached their expectations
1. Top 3rd at position 8-10. Exceeded expectations
2. Solid NFL Starter 7-8 Above expectations
3. NFL Starter 6-7 Slightly above expectations
4. Fringe starter/top backup 5-6 Met expectations
5. Decent backup level player 4-5 Slightly below expectations
6. Depth player 3-4 Below expectations
7. Solid special teamer/backup 0-3 Well below expecations/Bust
Rnd Pos Grade Scale
2012 1 Ryan Tannehill QB 20 25
2012 2 Jonathan Martin T 7 20
2012 3 Olivier Vernon DE 12.6 18
2012 3 Michael Egnew TE 5.4 18
2012 4 Lamar Miller RB 11.2 14
2012 5 Josh Kaddu LB 4 10
2012 6 B.J. Cunningham WR 2.1 7
2012 7 Kheeston Randall DT 3.5 5
2012 7 Rishard Matthews WR 4.75 5
70.55 122
Average: 57.83%
Year Rnd Pos Grade Scale
2011 1 Mike Pouncey OL 23.125 25
2011 2 Daniel Thomas RB 7 20
2011 4 Clyde Gates WR 4.2 14
2011 6 Charles Clay TE 6.3 7
2011 7 Frank Kearse DT 0 5
2011 7 Jimmy Wilson DB 4.25 5
44.875 76
Average: 59.05%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2010 1 Jared Odrick DE 18.75 25
2010 2 Koa Misi LB 12 20
2010 3 John Jerry T 9.9 18
2010 4 A.J. Edds LB 3.5 14
2010 5 Nolan Carroll DB 8 10
2010 5 Reshad Jones DB 10 10
2010 7 Chris McCoy DE 0 5
2010 7 Austin Spitler LB 3 5
65.15 107
Average: 60.89%
Jeff Ireland grade: 59.25%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2012 1 Nick Perry DE 15 25
2012 2 Jerel Worthy DT 7 20
2012 2 Casey Hayward DB 15 20
2012 4 Mike Daniels DT 9.8 14
2012 4 Jerron McMillian SS 5.6 14
2012 5 Terrell Manning OLB 2.5 10
2012 7 Andrew Datko T 0 5
2012 7 B.J. Coleman QB 1.5 5
56.4 113
49.91%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2011 1 Derek Sherrod OL 6.25 25
2011 2 Randall Cobb WR 19 20
2011 3 Alex Green RB 6.3 18
2011 4 Davon House DB 7.7 14
2011 5 D.J. Williams TE 4 10
2011 6 Caleb Schlauderaff OL 3 7
2011 6 D.J. Smith LB 3.5 7
2011 6 Ricky Elmore DL 0 7
2011 7 Ryan Taylor TE 3.5 5
2011 7 Lawrence Guy DT 3.5 5
56.75 118
48.09%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2010 1 Bryan Bulaga T 10 25
2010 2 Mike Neal DE 10 20
2010 3 Morgan Burnett DB 10.8 18
2010 5 Andrew Quarless TE 6 10
2010 5 Marshall Newhouse G 5.5 10
2010 6 James Starks RB 5.6 7
2010 7 C.J. Wilson DE 4 5
51.9 95
54.63%
Ted Thompson grade: 50.88%
So for example you draft a guy like Olivier Vernon int the 3rd round. His expectation is he's an NFL starter and he has met that but then in my opinion he's been slighly above expectations so he gets a 7/10 grade. Convert it to the weighted 18 and you'll get 12.6/18.
Grading scale
Expectation (RND) How well they have reached their expectations
1. Top 3rd at position 8-10. Exceeded expectations
2. Solid NFL Starter 7-8 Above expectations
3. NFL Starter 6-7 Slightly above expectations
4. Fringe starter/top backup 5-6 Met expectations
5. Decent backup level player 4-5 Slightly below expectations
6. Depth player 3-4 Below expectations
7. Solid special teamer/backup 0-3 Well below expecations/Bust
Rnd Pos Grade Scale
2012 1 Ryan Tannehill QB 20 25
2012 2 Jonathan Martin T 7 20
2012 3 Olivier Vernon DE 12.6 18
2012 3 Michael Egnew TE 5.4 18
2012 4 Lamar Miller RB 11.2 14
2012 5 Josh Kaddu LB 4 10
2012 6 B.J. Cunningham WR 2.1 7
2012 7 Kheeston Randall DT 3.5 5
2012 7 Rishard Matthews WR 4.75 5
70.55 122
Average: 57.83%
Year Rnd Pos Grade Scale
2011 1 Mike Pouncey OL 23.125 25
2011 2 Daniel Thomas RB 7 20
2011 4 Clyde Gates WR 4.2 14
2011 6 Charles Clay TE 6.3 7
2011 7 Frank Kearse DT 0 5
2011 7 Jimmy Wilson DB 4.25 5
44.875 76
Average: 59.05%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2010 1 Jared Odrick DE 18.75 25
2010 2 Koa Misi LB 12 20
2010 3 John Jerry T 9.9 18
2010 4 A.J. Edds LB 3.5 14
2010 5 Nolan Carroll DB 8 10
2010 5 Reshad Jones DB 10 10
2010 7 Chris McCoy DE 0 5
2010 7 Austin Spitler LB 3 5
65.15 107
Average: 60.89%
Jeff Ireland grade: 59.25%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2012 1 Nick Perry DE 15 25
2012 2 Jerel Worthy DT 7 20
2012 2 Casey Hayward DB 15 20
2012 4 Mike Daniels DT 9.8 14
2012 4 Jerron McMillian SS 5.6 14
2012 5 Terrell Manning OLB 2.5 10
2012 7 Andrew Datko T 0 5
2012 7 B.J. Coleman QB 1.5 5
56.4 113
49.91%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2011 1 Derek Sherrod OL 6.25 25
2011 2 Randall Cobb WR 19 20
2011 3 Alex Green RB 6.3 18
2011 4 Davon House DB 7.7 14
2011 5 D.J. Williams TE 4 10
2011 6 Caleb Schlauderaff OL 3 7
2011 6 D.J. Smith LB 3.5 7
2011 6 Ricky Elmore DL 0 7
2011 7 Ryan Taylor TE 3.5 5
2011 7 Lawrence Guy DT 3.5 5
56.75 118
48.09%
Year Rnd Pos Grd Scale
2010 1 Bryan Bulaga T 10 25
2010 2 Mike Neal DE 10 20
2010 3 Morgan Burnett DB 10.8 18
2010 5 Andrew Quarless TE 6 10
2010 5 Marshall Newhouse G 5.5 10
2010 6 James Starks RB 5.6 7
2010 7 C.J. Wilson DE 4 5
51.9 95
54.63%
Ted Thompson grade: 50.88%
ATL_PHIN_FAN
Winner Under Construction
Nicely done, grushcow. I like your weighted evaluation system. Looks realistic and fair to me. 