Statistical Evidence of Shoddy Coaching / Coaching Lost This Game

[lauderdale]

Re: Coaching Lost This Game

Originally posted by Da 'Fins


Going for a FG on 3rd down? If we had the ball on the 5 yard line, fine. But, from the same spot we had one blocked b/c Mare couldn't get the ball up? That was mindboggling stupidity!

The call to go for a FG on 3rd down was a good one. If the new snapper has problems and the setup isn't correct they fall on the ball and try again on 4th down. Remember what happened last year in the 49er Giant game? Mare is supposed to be the best kicker in the NFL.

I think the coaching has been awful and I think DW has lost us some games. However, Mare should have made the kick and only missed it by inches. Of course had Ricky gotten the ball on the goal line earlier in the game it might not have mattered.

Also, I read somewhere that Griese was already getting a lot more snaps with the first team than other backup QB's in the league. I wonder if that is because Jay is/was hurt or if the coaching staff likes what they see from Griese.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally posted by FinaticalOne


First, you need to go back and read the post game quotes of Belichick about stacking the middle w/an extra man on our running downs (1rst and 2nd downs). He doen't deny doing that.

He also stacked the line in the last series against Mia last year.

Originally posted by FinaticalOne
Second, there was some people comlaining about that series of play calling during the NE game last year when he called three straight passing plays. They had good reason to complain, as I recall, Ricky had over 180 yds that game, the running game was working so why abandon it when you need it most at that time?

Because they chose to stack the line....

Originally posted by FinaticalOne
Third, the whole game yesterday, we could not get any positive yards on 1rst and 2nd down because they knew we were going to run. Going into the 4th quarter we were 1 for 9 on third down conversions, because Turner tried to run on first downs 71% of the time, as a result Ricky got stuffed every time and when 3rd down came around it was always 3rd and long (7 yards or more).

Everyone agrees the line play has to improve, but it all starts w/Norv's play-calling as well. It's too predictable, and it doesn't matter who is on the line, if a defense knows what you are going to do, nine out of 10 times they will stop you.

For those of you who claim that we are getting stopped by 8 or 9 guys in the box.... check the stats. Of the tackles on Ricky near the line of scrimmage, 3 were made by safeties or CBs. Thats 3 out of 27! The rest were made by the Dline or LBs. check it out...

(15:00) R.Williams left guard to MIA 22 for 2 yards (M.Chatham).
(13:45) R.Williams right end to MIA 38 for -1 yards (J.Green).
(11:08) R.Williams right tackle to MIA 33 for 2 yards (R.Harrison).
(6:55) R.Williams up the middle to MIA 31 for 18 yards (A.Samuel).
(2:17) R.Williams right end to MIA 43 for 7 yards (M.Chatham).
(1:12) R.Williams up the middle to NE 47 for no gain (R.Seymour; M.Chatham).
(12:49) R.Williams right end to NE 10 for 6 yards (T.Bruschi).
(11:24) R.Williams up the middle to NE 3 for 2 yards (T.Warren).
(8:35) R.Williams left tackle to NE 20 for 3 yards (J.Green).
(7:27) R.Williams up the middle to NE 12 for 3 yards (T.Warren).
(6:43) R.Williams left tackle to NE 3 for 9 yards (R.Harrison).
(12:39) R.Williams left end pushed ob at NE 29 for -1 yards (E.Wilson).
(11:18) R.Williams right end to NE 18 for -4 yards (M.Chatham).
(:21) R.Williams right guard to NE 42 for 3 yards (T.Bruschi; T.Warren).
(12:51) R.Williams right tackle to MIA 28 for 1 yard (B.Hamilton).
(11:03) R.Williams right guard to MIA 10 for no gain (T.Warren; R.Harrison).
(9:39) R.Williams up the middle to MIA 26 for no gain (R.Seymour; B.Hamilton).
(5:17) R.Williams up the middle to NE 31 for 1 yard (M.Chatham; B.Hamilton).
(4:28) R.Williams right guard to NE 21 for 10 yards (E.Wilson; C.Akins).
(3:58) R.Williams up the middle to NE 17 for 4 yards (R.Harrison).
(3:18) R.Williams right tackle to NE 18 for 4 yards (B.Hamilton).
(2:33) R.Williams up the middle to NE 17 for 1 yard (T.Bruschi; T.Warren).
(14:21) R.Williams up the middle to NE 33 for 10 yards (D.Klecko).
(14:02) R.Williams right end pushed ob at NE 20 for 13 yards (E.Wilson).
(13:32) R.Williams up the middle to NE 19 for 1 yard (R.Seymour).
(12:49) R.Williams left guard to NE 17 for 2 yards (R.Seymour; R.Phifer).
(6:49) R.Williams up the middle to MIA 45 for -2 yards (T.Warren).

The fact is that the Oline is getting beat at the point of attack. Ricky is becoming more tentative as a result. I think it is time to shake up the oline. Bring on Dixon and McKinney. Ruddy looks awful! How many holding calls is this guy going to get?

 

[finfan54]

I just think its kind of funnythat norv got blamed last year for not running ricky and now he is getting blamed for running him too much! i do blame norv though. he needs to throw more on first down.

 

[FinaticalOne]

Originally posted by FinfanInBuffalo
For those of you who claim that we are getting stopped by 8 or 9 guys in the box.... check the stats. Of the tackles on Ricky near the line of scrimmage, 3 were made by safeties or CBs. Thats 3 out of 27! The rest were made by the Dline or LBs. check it out...

(15:00) R.Williams left guard to MIA 22 for 2 yards (M.Chatham).
(13:45) R.Williams right end to MIA 38 for -1 yards (J.Green).
(11:08) R.Williams right tackle to MIA 33 for 2 yards (R.Harrison).
(6:55) R.Williams up the middle to MIA 31 for 18 yards (A.Samuel).
(2:17) R.Williams right end to MIA 43 for 7 yards (M.Chatham).
(1:12) R.Williams up the middle to NE 47 for no gain (R.Seymour; M.Chatham).
(12:49) R.Williams right end to NE 10 for 6 yards (T.Bruschi).
(11:24) R.Williams up the middle to NE 3 for 2 yards (T.Warren).
(8:35) R.Williams left tackle to NE 20 for 3 yards (J.Green).
(7:27) R.Williams up the middle to NE 12 for 3 yards (T.Warren).
(6:43) R.Williams left tackle to NE 3 for 9 yards (R.Harrison).
(12:39) R.Williams left end pushed ob at NE 29 for -1 yards (E.Wilson).
(11:18) R.Williams right end to NE 18 for -4 yards (M.Chatham).
(:21) R.Williams right guard to NE 42 for 3 yards (T.Bruschi; T.Warren).
(12:51) R.Williams right tackle to MIA 28 for 1 yard (B.Hamilton).
(11:03) R.Williams right guard to MIA 10 for no gain (T.Warren; R.Harrison).
(9:39) R.Williams up the middle to MIA 26 for no gain (R.Seymour; B.Hamilton).
(5:17) R.Williams up the middle to NE 31 for 1 yard (M.Chatham; B.Hamilton).
(4:28) R.Williams right guard to NE 21 for 10 yards (E.Wilson; C.Akins).
(3:58) R.Williams up the middle to NE 17 for 4 yards (R.Harrison).
(3:18) R.Williams right tackle to NE 18 for 4 yards (B.Hamilton).
(2:33) R.Williams up the middle to NE 17 for 1 yard (T.Bruschi; T.Warren).
(14:21) R.Williams up the middle to NE 33 for 10 yards (D.Klecko).
(14:02) R.Williams right end pushed ob at NE 20 for 13 yards (E.Wilson).
(13:32) R.Williams up the middle to NE 19 for 1 yard (R.Seymour).
(12:49) R.Williams left guard to NE 17 for 2 yards (R.Seymour; R.Phifer).
(6:49) R.Williams up the middle to MIA 45 for -2 yards (T.Warren).

The fact is that the Oline is getting beat at the point of attack. Ricky is becoming more tentative as a result. I think it is time to shake up the oline. Bring on Dixon and McKinney. Ruddy looks awful! How many holding calls is this guy going to get?

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

What are these stats trying to prove. You need to check those stats you posted again. I just counted 9 tackles by DBs out of the 27 you mentioned. These DBs included (S Rodney Harrison, S Chris Akins and CB Eugene Wilson). Rodney Harrison had 4 of those tackles by himself. You just made the presence of extra men in the box evident (thanks to your stats). The stats you just presented shows that the DB's made 1/3 of those takles at the line of scrimmage. Even if they only had 3 tackles (which we now know is not the case here), their presence in the box confuses blocking schemes and gives them quicker reaction time to pluggin' the gaps, they don't have to make the tackles, all they have to do is make sure Ricky has nowhere to run which is what they did all game.

Belichick already admitted to crowding the line the whole game with extra men on first and second downs, so what is your point? And what do we do in retrospect.......run the ball 71% of the time on those downs.

McKinney already had a chance to take over the center position, remember. It didn't go well.

I am glad that Dixon is coming back too, and hopefully that should help our line out.

I have faith in our coaches to make the changes necessary to be effective on offense, but these stats show that Norv is TOO PREDICTABLE on first and second down.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally posted by FinaticalOne


WRONG WRONG WRONG.

What are these stats trying to prove. You need to check those stats you posted again. I just counted 9 tackles by DBs out of the 27 you mentioned. These DBs included (S Rodney Harrison, S Chris Akins and CB Eugene Wilson). Rodney Harrison had 4 of those tackles by himself. You just made the presence of extra men in the box evident (thanks to your stats). The stats you just presented shows that the DB's made 1/3 of those takles at the line of scrimmage. Even if they only had 3 tackles (which we now know is not the case here), their presence in the box confuses blocking schemes and gives them quicker reaction time to pluggin' the gaps, they don't have to make the tackles, all they have to do is make sure Ricky has nowhere to run which is what they did all game.

Please reread my post. I said only 3 were made by safeties or CBs NEAR THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. I meant less than 4 yds.

You can't possibly attribute a tackle by a CB or safety 10, 13. or 18 yds down field to 8 in the box.

Have you ever seen such a high percentage of tackles by D Linemen?

 

[FinaticalOne]

Originally posted by FinfanInBuffalo


Please reread my post. I said only 3 were made by safeties or CBs NEAR THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. I meant less than 4 yds.

You can't possibly attribute a tackle by a CB or safety 10, 13. or 18 yds down field to 8 in the box.

Have you ever seen such a high percentage of tackles by D Linemen?

Hey FinFanInBuff, I didn't see the yds part on the tackle, so I stand corrected on that part. But I differ with you, because like I said earlier, those stats don't prove a thing. BTW, are those first down results? They look a little different than the ones we were already talking about on the first page.

Belichick has already stated that everyone knows we will run on first and second down, so that's why he put extra men in the box on first and second, those are facts and cannot be disputed. And since that is the point that can't be disputed because he admitts it, the DB's don't have to make the tackles, the job is to plug every gap providing Ricky no where to run. That is all that has to be done. Do you understand that.

Now I'm with you that are o-line is failing, but Turner's play-calling is hurting them more. We run the ball 65% of the time on first down, that is the facts and the whole NFL knows it. You know they will gear up to stop the run on first down and what did we do yesterday on first down? Run the ball 72% on first down. So tell me. Is Norv doing anything to help the offense improve? Hell no..:fire:

Look at the first down results on the first page and you will see that being predictable has set us up for third and longs all game which set the offense up to fail. The changes that need to be made should start with Norv's first and second down play-calling because it is killin' us.

 

[Da 'Fins]

Originally posted by FinaticalOne


WRONG WRONG WRONG.

What are these stats trying to prove. You need to check those stats you posted again. I just counted 9 tackles by DBs out of the 27 you mentioned. These DBs included (S Rodney Harrison, S Chris Akins and CB Eugene Wilson). Rodney Harrison had 4 of those tackles by himself. You just made the presence of extra men in the box evident (thanks to your stats). The stats you just presented shows that the DB's made 1/3 of those takles at the line of scrimmage. Even if they only had 3 tackles (which we now know is not the case here), their presence in the box confuses blocking schemes and gives them quicker reaction time to pluggin' the gaps, they don't have to make the tackles, all they have to do is make sure Ricky has nowhere to run which is what they did all game.

Exactly.

 

[Da 'Fins]

Re: Re: Coaching Lost This Game

Originally posted by lauderdale


The call to go for a FG on 3rd down was a good one. If the new snapper has problems and the setup isn't correct they fall on the ball and try again on 4th down. Remember what happened last year in the 49er Giant game? Mare is supposed to be the best kicker in the NFL.

I think the coaching has been awful and I think DW has lost us some games. However, Mare should have made the kick and only missed it by inches. Of course had Ricky gotten the ball on the goal line earlier in the game it might not have mattered.

Also, I read somewhere that Griese was already getting a lot more snaps with the first team than other backup QB's in the league. I wonder if that is because Jay is/was hurt or if the coaching staff likes what they see from Griese.

You are assuming we won't move closer or won't get a first down. The point I'm making is this: when we got to the 20, Dave just quit trying to go any further. He shut down the aggressiveness, became conservative on two no gain runs and then went for the FG. I'm saying, play the same way you did to get to the 20! I'm not saying don't run, but, on 1st down, do a play action (they were expecting run!) - try to get closer. Do a bootleg with a short pass. Or, go for a corner or post into the endzone to end it right there. Once they got there, Dave was worried about a mistake and put his trust in an unreliable situation. I could almost hear the announcer saying "Ricky for no gain" before the play even started.

I don't care if Mare SHOULD have been able to make that. The miss at the end of the 4th quarter demonstrated the "iffy" nature of this - it was not your typical 35 yarder! He went too conservative and predictable at the end. Another point is this: Suppose it was a botched snap? Where would the ball have been? No closer than the 25, at best. That makes it a 42 yarder, still off the dirt and longer - plus puts NE in better position.

Dave was trying to play it close to the vest - and he has done this in critical games every year he's been there - and it has backfired far too many times.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally posted by FinaticalOne


Hey FinFanInBuff, I didn't see the yds part on the tackle, so I stand corrected on that part. But I differ with you, because like I said earlier, those stats don't prove a thing. BTW, are those first down results? They look a little different than the ones we were already talking about on the first page.

Those are all 27 carries. We'll just have to agree to disagree. When the dline makes all the tackles, I don't care if the cheeleaders are near the line of scrimmage.

 

[Da 'Fins]

Re: I too was disgusted with the playcalling

Originally posted by rhadaddy
I really believe that we are one of the few teams, Carolina and Baltimore included, that needs to pass to open up the running game. It's an anomoly in the NFL, but we highly depend on the run to win us games and teams know it and respect it, so they do everything to stop it. It was unbeleivable how many times we were in second and 9. While NE were constantly in 2nd and short. All NE was doing was dumping of a pass to the flat every first down or a quick slant for five to seven yards. Very short high percentage passing. Certainly something Fiedler could handle. I got tired of them running ricky on first down cause he had no running lanes and I had flashbacks of Lamar Smith and his dancing in the backfield.

Point is teams look for us to run ricky on 1st and 2nd down. So they run blitz us to clog up the lanes. It was obvious the mismatches that we could've continued to exploit with McMicheal on Harrison or Femi out in the flat for short gains. Hindsight is a
b!tch, but damn the coaching and playcalling absolutely stunk. It was way too predictable and ineffective.

I agree wholeheartedly. This is exactly my point. The coaches keep crying about the "deep" passing game. But, that's not all there is to it. We just need to mix up the passes and runs. You are exactly right - Fiedler is VERY good at passes under 20 yards. He can have pinpoint accuracy at times. Hit some 5-12 yard passes that are high percentage. Then run Ricky on 2nd and 4 or 5 or even 6. Or, throw passes on consecutive 1st downs (if you hit one) then, run a draw!

It's not rocket science. It's simple imagination.

 

[Da 'Fins]

Originally posted by FinfanInBuffalo


Those are all 27 carries. We'll just have to agree to disagree. When the dline makes all the tackles, I don't care if the cheeleaders are near the line of scrimmage.

So, you are saying, that 8 guys up on the line - don't affect, in any way whatsoever, the blocking schemes?

Also, when you pass more, it keeps the linemen in less of a "run stopping" attack and into a pass rush attack. If you know about how a DL works, they attack an OL differently depending on whether they think "run" or "pass" - If they think pass, they charge up the lanes. WHen they do that, they can be "had" on running plays by a lineman simply taking the right angle.

If they think, "run" - they try to fill the holes and keep from being moved - they become rocks in there - trying to stuff any running lanes. If they are thinking "run" and you are passing, you have them as well - they are not charging to the backfield and you can set up to block them.

That's the way it works. When you keep a DL off balance, you can dominate even without a great OL. This is what great offensive coordinators do.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally posted by Da 'Fins


So, you are saying, that 8 guys up on the line - don't affect, in any way whatsoever, the blocking schemes?

I never said that. I simply asked if 8 guys up was the reason for the run not working, why aren't there more tackles near the LOS by the extra guy being brought up? Nobody seems to have an explanation for that. I would understand the argument if there were more tackles by safeties, that is simply not the case.

I watched the game. I recall our O line getting outplayed by their D line.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally posted by FinaticalOne


Hey FinFanInBuff, I didn't see the yds part on the tackle, so I stand corrected on that part. But I differ with you, because like I said earlier, those stats don't prove a thing. BTW, are those first down results? They look a little different than the ones we were already talking about on the first page.

BTW, you didn't say the stats didn't prove anything. You said they proved your point, which (of course) we now know was wrong.

 

[FinaticalOne]

Sorry everyone, this is going to be a long post....the lawyer is about to come out of me.

Ok first FINFANINBUFF, let's stop putting up smokescreens and get back to the root of the matter in this thread.

Before you jumped into the topic on this thread. We were talking about shoddy coaching decisions. MAINLY about Norv Tuner being TOO PREDICTABLE on first and second downs. Before the Pats game, we averaged running the ball a ridiculous 65% of the time on those downs, but against the Pats we ran a sickening 72% on those downs. PREDICTABLE? YES!

Now Belichick has been quoted in different media columns on his post game comments about knowing the percentage (65%) of run plays we call on first and second downs, so Belichick admit to, and I quote, "crowding the box on their running downs, plugging every gap hoping to bounce Ricky to the outside." Belichick admits this....this is a fact. It can't be disputed because he admits it. But you go and post this.....

and I quote you from another thread........
"Please check your facts. We are not getting beat by 8 or 9 in the box. That is wishful thinking. Rodney Harrison was busy covering McMichael and the WRs were not single covered all day. Our O-line is getting beat by athletic d-lines. We need to get Ruddy and Nails out of the lineup for McKinney and Dixon."

He wasn't busy covering McMichael on first down because we ran the ball 72% of the time on first down. So I guess Belichick is lying, huh?

Then we have people from our beloved Finheaven forum try to tell you the same thing, but you still don't want to listen, here is one that was directed at you from that same thread.....

From Phins 13... quote:
I was at the game and there were 8 guys in the box and for the most part they had a safety near the line of scrimmage all day......just like Jax,Buff, Giants,Jets and Hou. .........Starting to get the picture here! They(and I mean the rest of the teams on our schedule) will have the same plan until we show that we can score T.Ds throwing the football.

So you try to find stats out there to prove your point. So you go and put those stats up to prove that, since DL's and LB's made most of those tackles that they couldn't possibly be crowding the box ....am I right?

After it has been made painfully evident that the box was crowded by not only a FinFan who was at the game in person, but also by the head coach of the Pats who devised the scheme and went public about it after the game, you still don't understand. Or is it, you don't want to understand??????

I quote you once again.....
"Can you please explain to me why there were so few tackles near the line of scrimmage by safeties then? RW was tackled for 3 yds or less 18 times. A safety made a solo tackle ONCE!!!!! A safety assisted on a tackle ONCE!!!! Thats two for the whole game!!!!"
"15 of the 18 tackles were made by D Linemen. Can you please explain to me why a defense would put 8 men in the box when 4 will do the job?"
"I don't care how many men are in the box. The front 4 of the defense are kicking our butts."
"Anyone care to explain this?"

It's been explained to you in previous posts over and over again by myself, DaFins, Phins12 and Bill Belichick, but you still don't understand. The point is they crowded the box on first and second downs making it hard for else to get any positive yards, as a result; we were stuck in third and long situations the whole game. Turner was TOO PREDICTABLE, they crowded the box on first and second down and we ran the ball 72% on those downs. Now, was Norv predictable? Hell yes!!!!!

Go back and read the posts on this thread from DaFins and I about crowding the box will confuse blocking schemes. Doing this will force the o-line to make a decision on who to block. Crowding the box will give the D a quicker reaction time to plug every hole, leaving Ricky nowhere to run.

Now I've tried to explain this to you the best way I can (Football 101). If you don't get it now, unfortunately for you; you never will. Take it easy.

 

[DeDolfan]

Originally posted by finfan54
I just think its kind of funnythat norv got blamed last year for not running ricky and now he is getting blamed for running him too much! i do blame norv though. he needs to throw more on first down.

Norv could cause alot of misdirection by using spread formations more and still run the same basic plays from them.