Tannehill on a shorter leash for 2014

[nyjunc]

we didnt get 28 tds first off...and i don't care what mark did...if anyones 32 tds looked better than a qbs play it was mark buttfumble...anyways i'm done talking about the guy...i know what he needs to not look terrible...

you said 28, I assume you were combining his TD runs. mark wasn't as good w/ his 32 just like Ryan wasn't as good this year w/ his #. stop touting the TDs as if it was some special #.

No team came close to the number of blown block sacks or quick sacks that the Dolphins gave up. When you are giving up sacks after 4 seconds, that is not on the OL. Hanging in the pocket that long may result in more sacks but it also results in more big play opportunities for the offense. Miami had the high sack totals without the increased opportunities for big plays. This has all been covered in other posts.

so you watched every game of every team?

 

[rent this space]

Yeah, half frozen sitting on sideline, Moore still throws longest completion of day, then gets yanked. Look how many Tanny-Hill threw all season.

he completed 2 to Miami and 2 to Buffalo plus an obligatory fumble(he's good for about one per game).
the only way Matt Moore takes his team to the playoffs is by driving a bus to another city.
I would cut him at 12:01am on the first day of the new NFL year

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

so you watched every game of every team?

Two independent groups (PFF and Football Outsiders) did reviews of all the sacks by all the teams.

I'll help you out and summarize again:

I decided to take the two sources (PFF and Football Outsiders) and see if they are at all consistent with each other. The football outsiders list was not for the complete season and they used different grouping criteria (PFF was blocking or QB, FO was blown block, confusion, or coverage). Clearly the confusion sacks could be on the QB or on the OL. I decided to just sort the FO list by blown blocks and the PFF list by blocking sacks (both highest to lowest) to see how similar the lists were. I split the 32 teams into 3 groups (11 in the top, 10 in the middle, and 11 in the bottom).

For the top 11 list (presumably the worst OLs for pass blocking), 8 out of the 11 were common to both lists. For the bottom 11 list (better OL), 7 out of the 11 were on both lists. Both lists had Miami as the worst and in both cases by a wide margin. For example, on the FO list, Miami's OL was credited with 35 blown blocks with the next four worst at 25, 22, 22, 22. PPF credits Miami's OL with 41 blocking sacks with the next 4 worst at 33, 32, 32, 31.

The two INDEPENDENT lists are very similar to one another and both show that Miami's OL was largely to blame and worse than the rest of the league by a wide margin.

Why is he so dense on this topic. These are not my evaluations.

Another article on Football Outsiders looked at the timing of the sacks. Most people realize that the longer a sack takes, the more likely that the QB is at fault. This article from Football Outsiders looked at that.

Dolphins quarterback Ryan Tannehill has been sacked 17 times (53.1 percent) on short sacks, 12 times (37.5 percent) on medium sacks and three times (9.4 percent) on long sacks. It’s a pretty clear sign that the Dolphins sack problems (and they are significant problems) are the line’s fault, and not the fault of wide receivers failing to get open or a quarterback who holds the ball too long.

Looking at the QBs with 20 or more sacks, there is an interesting breakdown:

QB Short Sacks PCT Normal Sacks PCT Long Sacks PCT
17-R.Tannehill 17 53.10% 12 37.50% 3 9.40% 32
7-G.Smith 5 17.90% 8 28.60% 15 53.60% 28
3-R.Wilson 8 29.60% 9 33.30% 10 37.00% 27
7-B.Roethlisberger 8 30.80% 9 34.60% 9 34.60% 26
11-A.Smith 9 37.50% 8 33.30% 7 29.20% 24
12-T.Brady 14 60.90% 4 17.40% 5 21.70% 23
3-C.Palmer 13 56.50% 5 21.70% 5 21.70% 23
2-T.Pryor 3 13.60% 6 27.30% 13 59.10% 22
1-C.Newton 6 28.60% 5 23.80% 10 47.60% 21
3-B.Weeden 5 23.80% 6 28.60% 10 47.60% 21
5-J.Flacco 7 35.00% 7 35.00% 6 30.00% 20

The young QBs (except Tannehill), G. Smith, Wilson, Pryor, Weeden, Newton all have more long sacks (likely their fault) than short sacks. The veteran QBs, Brady, Palmer have more short sacks. Roethlisberger, A, Smith, and Flacco are evenly distributed. Tannehill takes very, very few long sacks. In fact, despite being sacked most overall (by far), he has the fewest number of long sacks. When compared to QBs with similar amounts of experience, the difference is striking.

We now have three different looks at the sacks. Two attempt to assign blame by observing the actual plays. One uses the timing of the sack (therefore not subjective). All come to the same conclusion. To top it off, the team confirmed the problem by making OL changes in mid season.


I don't know why anyone needs to look any further for blame.

 

[nyjunc]

oh please, here we go w/ these links. yesterday I posted what PFF said and you ignored it and pretended like they bashed your OL.

from one of the sites YOU are touting:

Much was made of the sacks taken by Ryan Tannehill; they were somewhat simplistically used as a means to lament the play of the line in pass protection, but it wasn’t anywhere near as bad with the line producing a Pass Blocking Efficiency ranking right around the middle of the pack.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/2/

so which is it? is this site reputable or not?

 

[Martel13]

No team came close to the number of blown block sacks or quick sacks that the Dolphins gave up. When you are giving up sacks after 4 seconds, that is not on the OL. Hanging in the pocket that long may result in more sacks but it also results in more big play opportunities for the offense. Miami had the high sack totals without the increased opportunities for big plays. This has all been covered in other posts.

Sounds like you have watched every play of every team and read every post on the forum. I haven't. Just stating some facts

 

[truedolfan57]

oh please, here we go w/ these links. yesterday I posted what PFF said and you ignored it and pretended like they bashed your OL.

from one of the sites YOU are touting:



https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/2/

so which is it? is this site reputable or not?

with their own stats, I think it's pretty easy to figure out, that yes, the rate at which tannehill was sacked, compared to drop backs is par the course, but what that quote doesn't say, is that of the sacks, they were quicker than most other teams, when they did happen. which leads the conclusion that the oline is to blame for the majority of the sacks. Seems to be pretty easy to comprehend, but maybe not.

 

[ucfphinfan12]

Moore and devlin are definitely not better, from what I have seen of Bortles I'd take Ryan though I do need to see more of him.

I am sure you would take Tannehill over Bortles, like me saying I would take Geno Smith over Mark San Chez. Kidding aside, I'd love to see Geno Smith as your starting QB for the next 5 years. It would give us a better chance to win every year.

Ryan Tanny-Hill lost to your Geno Smith at home and are coaching staff made no adjustments to beat your team, and we're playing at home? With the playoffs on the line and everyone's jobs at stake?

 

[Shouright]

I don't know why anyone needs to look any further for blame.

And when it comes to looking at Ryan Tannehill's performance, I don't know why anyone needs to look at sacks at all, since they weren't correlated with his performance in 2013, and they aren't correlated with the performance of QBs in the NFL in the salary cap era (since 1994).

It's interesting to look at the relative blame for the sacks, but in a thread about Ryan Tannehill's performance, they're irrelevant.

Moreover, Tannehill wasn't pressured any more often than the average QB in the league in 2013, so to say that his performance somehow suffered due to an inordinate frequency of pressure is also off-base.

This "offensive line" thing is a giant red herring, and serves only to help some folks maintain a positive impression of and hope in Ryan Tannehill, in my opinion.

 

[truedolfan57]

And when it comes to looking at Ryan Tannehill's performance, I don't know why anyone needs to look at sacks at all, since they weren't correlated with his performance in 2013, and they aren't correlated with the performance of QBs in the NFL in the salary cap era (since 1994).

It's interesting to look at the relative blame for the sacks, but in a thread about Ryan Tannehill's performance, they're irrelevant.

Moreover, Tannehill wasn't pressured any more often than the average QB in the league in 2013, so to say that his performance somehow suffered due to an inordinate frequency of pressure is also off-base.

This "offensive line" thing is a giant red herring, and serves only to help some folks maintain a positive impression of and hope in Ryan Tannehill, in my opinion.

just out of curiosity, do you feel the dolphins offensive line should stay exactly the same as it did in 2013? Do you think football even needs an offensive line? since in no way, does their performance affect the qb in their performance? and thirdly, you can guarantee that if the oline didn't allow as many sacks as they did, that tannehill's stats would be exactly the same?

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

oh please, here we go w/ these links. yesterday I posted what PFF said and you ignored it and pretended like they bashed your OL.

from one of the sites YOU are touting:



https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/2/

so which is it? is this site reputable or not?

Apples and oranges.... still

In two of the articles I referenced, the reviewer actually reviewed every sack. They didn't use a bogus summary that includes non-sack plays. Please try to keep up......

 

[hoops]

i used the number 28 cause the shamegame guy used that in his post to reference not enough production from the qb position in 2014 and the need to move on if that was the case...i guess not knowing that even the 24 tds that our 2nd year qb in 2013 put up gives us the most this franchise has had in 15 years...

from a 2nd year qb no less with awful oline play and a team that for the most part couldn't run the ball unless we added an extra ot in a short week...and yes awful oline play is correct and why the only insider worth a damn barry jackson states that miami is looking to replace at least 3 if not 4 starting olinemen this offseason...and this is after trading for a tackle in damn season to try and right the ship

it shouldn't be this hard...

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

And when it comes to looking at Ryan Tannehill's performance, I don't know why anyone needs to look at sacks at all, since they weren't correlated with his performance in 2013, and they aren't correlated with the performance of QBs in the NFL in the salary cap era (since 1994).

Another poorly analyzed attempt at justifications .... what a surprise.

It's interesting to look at the relative blame for the sacks, but in a thread about Ryan Tannehill's performance, they're irrelevant.

Not true for the same reason as above.

Moreover, Tannehill wasn't pressured any more often than the average QB in the league in 2013, so to say that his performance somehow suffered due to an inordinate frequency of pressure is also off-base.

who said that? You are arguing with yourself on that one and have been for quite some time.

This "offensive line" thing is a giant red herring, and serves only to help some folks maintain a positive impression of and hope in Ryan Tannehill, in my opinion.

so says the person who has started the most threads about sacks.........

(1) Sacks matter
(2) The Dolphins gave up the most sacks, by far.
(3) Most of the sacks were the fault of the OL
(4) The types of sacks taken by Tannehill were closer to a veteran QB than a young QB

 

[hoops]

Two independent groups (PFF and Football Outsiders) did reviews of all the sacks by all the teams.

I'll help you out and summarize again:

I decided to take the two sources (PFF and Football Outsiders) and see if they are at all consistent with each other. The football outsiders list was not for the complete season and they used different grouping criteria (PFF was blocking or QB, FO was blown block, confusion, or coverage). Clearly the confusion sacks could be on the QB or on the OL. I decided to just sort the FO list by blown blocks and the PFF list by blocking sacks (both highest to lowest) to see how similar the lists were. I split the 32 teams into 3 groups (11 in the top, 10 in the middle, and 11 in the bottom).

For the top 11 list (presumably the worst OLs for pass blocking), 8 out of the 11 were common to both lists. For the bottom 11 list (better OL), 7 out of the 11 were on both lists. Both lists had Miami as the worst and in both cases by a wide margin. For example, on the FO list, Miami's OL was credited with 35 blown blocks with the next four worst at 25, 22, 22, 22. PPF credits Miami's OL with 41 blocking sacks with the next 4 worst at 33, 32, 32, 31.

The two INDEPENDENT lists are very similar to one another and both show that Miami's OL was largely to blame and worse than the rest of the league by a wide margin.

Why is he so dense on this topic. These are not my evaluations.

Another article on Football Outsiders looked at the timing of the sacks. Most people realize that the longer a sack takes, the more likely that the QB is at fault. This article from Football Outsiders looked at that.



Looking at the QBs with 20 or more sacks, there is an interesting breakdown:

QB Short Sacks PCT Normal Sacks PCT Long Sacks PCT
17-R.Tannehill 17 53.10% 12 37.50% 3 9.40% 32
7-G.Smith 5 17.90% 8 28.60% 15 53.60% 28
3-R.Wilson 8 29.60% 9 33.30% 10 37.00% 27
7-B.Roethlisberger 8 30.80% 9 34.60% 9 34.60% 26
11-A.Smith 9 37.50% 8 33.30% 7 29.20% 24
12-T.Brady 14 60.90% 4 17.40% 5 21.70% 23
3-C.Palmer 13 56.50% 5 21.70% 5 21.70% 23
2-T.Pryor 3 13.60% 6 27.30% 13 59.10% 22
1-C.Newton 6 28.60% 5 23.80% 10 47.60% 21
3-B.Weeden 5 23.80% 6 28.60% 10 47.60% 21
5-J.Flacco 7 35.00% 7 35.00% 6 30.00% 20

The young QBs (except Tannehill), G. Smith, Wilson, Pryor, Weeden, Newton all have more long sacks (likely their fault) than short sacks. The veteran QBs, Brady, Palmer have more short sacks. Roethlisberger, A, Smith, and Flacco are evenly distributed. Tannehill takes very, very few long sacks. In fact, despite being sacked most overall (by far), he has the fewest number of long sacks. When compared to QBs with similar amounts of experience, the difference is striking.

We now have three different looks at the sacks. Two attempt to assign blame by observing the actual plays. One uses the timing of the sack (therefore not subjective). All come to the same conclusion. To top it off, the team confirmed the problem by making OL changes in mid season.


I don't know why anyone needs to look any further for blame.

they shouldn't...the teams putting the blame where it should be also...by making an oline overhaul the top priority this offseason...

 

[Wildbill3]

i used the number 28 cause the shamegame guy used that in his post to reference not enough production from the qb position in 2014 and the need to move on if that was the case...i guess not knowing that even the 24 tds that our 2nd year qb in 2013 put up gives us the most this franchise has had in 15 years...

from a 2nd year qb no less with awful oline play and a team that for the most part couldn't run the ball unless we added an extra ot in a short week...and yes awful oline play is correct and why the only insider worth a damn barry jackson states that miami is looking to replace at least 3 if not 4 starting olinemen this offseason...and this is after trading for a tackle in damn season to try and right the ship

it shouldn't be this hard...

58. 58 times that instead of the ball finding a running back, WR, TE, or even a QB rushing for positive yardage, 58 times that a play went nowhere. 58 times that a QB took damage. 58 times that killed a play. 58 times that possible stalled a drive. 58 times that possibly changed momentum, and at least 3 games I know of (buffalo both times, Ravens) that they pinned their ears back on our final drive and owned our Line, costing us 3 games.

58. times that we had no chance at a TD.

 

[Vaark]

Love how PFF is suddenly gospel. Well if it is, by every measurable evaluation, according to them buttfumble has always been "woeful"
The (supposedly) ever-reliable PFF killing buttfumble in every which way. Some notable observations:

They just keep making apologies for Mark buttfumble.He’s young and learning. His receivers aren’t good enough. His line is terrible.All we ever hear are excuses for why Mark buttfumble plays poorly. How about this for a novel concept.
Our grading isn’t flawless. But why is he consistently near the bottom? We account for things like dropped passes and how receivers impact a quarterback. We even developed a signature stat that takes this into account. Our adjusted Accuracy Percentage treats drops as completions and doesn’t factor thing likes throw aways and spikes. How does ‘The Sanchize’ do? Well see for yourself.
know people want to blame the offensive line for giving up a load of pressure but look at the numbers. How often is buttfumble under pressure compared to his peers? This is one table where the lower you’re ranked means your facing less pressure. buttfumble consistently spends a smaller percentage of his time under pressure than those around the league, and that includes any pressure he brings on himself.
It probably just seems more than it is because he performs so badly when he is under pressure.

The sad thing is I need to stop myself. I have probably 10 more tables that will highlight how woeful Mark buttfumble has consistently been for the Jets but you already know this. He fails the eye test nearly every time he steps onto a field, and what’s more he doesn’t look all that much better than the rookie we saw in 2009. Yes he has won some playoff games but don’t go thinking that was because of his brilliance. That was because of the guys around him. So poor has he been that we now seem conditioned to praise him for simply not making the mistakes that have characterized his career.