Tannehill vs Luck | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Tannehill vs Luck

Let's add a bit here. NFL ranks Luck at #12, and Tannehill at #18. They have Dalton at #10, Cutler #11, and Bradford #13, Ben #14, Kaepernick #15, Pryor #16, RG3 #17. I got some problems with that.

PFF's top ten are Peyton, Rivers, Luck, Ryan, Rogers, Stafford, Newton Brees, Wilson, Romo, and RT at #11. This include QB's running, and a big plus for Luck, Newton, and Wilson.

Passing only- Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford, Romo, Rogers, Brees, Tannehill, Luck, and Big Ben.

Thoughts on who is ranked where?
 
Let's add a bit here. NFL ranks Luck at #12, and Tannehill at #18. They have Dalton at #10, Cutler #11, and Bradford #13, Ben #14, Kaepernick #15, Pryor #16, RG3 #17. I got some problems with that.

PFF's top ten are Peyton, Rivers, Luck, Ryan, Rogers, Stafford, Newton Brees, Wilson, Romo, and RT at #11. This include QB's running, and a big plus for Luck, Newton, and Wilson.

Passing only- Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford, Romo, Rogers, Brees, Tannehill, Luck, and Big Ben.

Thoughts on who is ranked where?
I think you'd get your most realistic ranking here:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

...with regard to this statistic:

DVOA EXPLAINED

One running back runs for three yards. Another running back runs for three yards. Which is the better run? This sounds like a stupid question, but it isn’t. In fact, this question is at the heart of nearly all of the analysis on Football Outsiders.

Several factors can differentiate one three-yard run from another. What is the down and distance? Is it third-and-2 or second-and-15? Where on the field is the ball? Does the player get only three yards because he hits the goal line and scores? Is the player’s team up by two touchdowns in the fourth quarter, and thus running out the clock; or down by two touchdowns, and thus facing a defense that is playing purely against the pass? Is the running back playing against the porous defense of the Raiders, or the stalwart defense of the Bears?

Conventional NFL statistics value plays based solely on their net yardage. The NFL determines the best players by adding up all their yards no matter what situations they came in or how many plays it took to get them. Now, why would they do that? Football has one objective -- to get to the end zone -- and two ways to achieve that -- by gaining yards and achieving first downs. These two goals need to be balanced to determine a player’s value or a team’s performance. All the yards in the world won’t help a team win if they all come in six-yard chunks on third-and-10.

The popularity of fantasy football only exacerbates the problem. Fans have gotten used to judging players based on how much they help fantasy teams win and lose, not how much they help real teams win and lose. Typical fantasy scoring further skews things by counting the yard between the one and the goal line as 61 times more important than all the other yards on the field (each yard worth 0.1 points, a touchdown worth 6). Let’s say Larry Fitzgerald catches a pass on third-and-15 and goes 50 yards but gets tackled two yards from the goal line, and then Beanie Wells takes the ball on first-and-goal from the two-yard line and plunges in for the score. Has Beanie Wells done something special? Not really. When an offense gets the ball on first-and-goal at the two-yard line, they're expected to score a touchdown five out of six times. Wells is getting credit for the work done by the passing game.

Doing a better job of distributing credit for scoring points and winning games is the goal of DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. DVOA breaks down every single play of the NFL season, assigning each play a value based on both total yards and yards towards a first down, based on work done by Pete Palmer, Bob Carroll, and John Thorn in their seminal book, The Hidden Game of Football. On first down, a play is considered a success if it gains 45 percent of needed yards; on second down, a play needs to gain 60 percent of needed yards; on third or fourth down, only gaining a new first down is considered success.

We then expand upon that basic idea with a more complicated system of “success points,” improved over the past few years with a lot of mathematics and a bit of trial and error. A successful play is worth one point; an unsuccessful play, zero points with fractional points in between (e.g., eight yards on third-and-10 is worth 0.54 “success points”). Extra points are awarded for big plays, gradually increasing to three points for 10 yards (assuming those yards result in a first down), four points for 20 yards, and five points for 40 yards or more. Losing three or more yards is -1 point. Interceptions occurring on fourth down during the last two minutes of a game incur no penalty whatsoever, but all others average -6 points, with an adjustment for the length of the pass and the location of the interception (since an interception tipped at the line is more likely to produce a long return than an interception on a 40-yard pass). A fumble is worth anywhere from -1.7 to -4.0 points depending on how often a fumble in that situation is lost to the defense -- no matter who actually recovers the fumble. Red zone plays get a bonus: 20 percent for team offense, five percent for team defense, and 10 percent for individual players. There is a bonus given for a touchdown, which acknowledges that the goal line is significantly more difficult to cross than the previous 99 yards (although this bonus is nowhere near as large as the one used in fantasy football).

(Our system is a bit more complex than the one in Hidden Game thanks to our subsequent research, which added larger penalties for turnovers, the fractional points, and a slightly higher baseline for success on first down. The reason why all fumbles are counted, no matter whether they are recovered by the offense or defense, is explained in FO Basics.)

Every single play run in the NFL gets a “success value” based on this system, and then that number gets compared to the average success values of plays in similar situations for all players, adjusted for a number of variables. These include down and distance, field location, time remaining in game, and the team’s lead or deficit in the game score. Teams are always compared to the overall offensive average, as the team made its own choice whether to pass or rush. When it comes to individual players, however, rushing plays are compared to other rushing plays, passing plays to other passing plays, tight ends to tight ends, wideouts to wideouts, and so on.

Going back to our example of the three-yard rush, if Player A gains three yards under a set of circumstances in which the average NFL running back gains only one yard, then Player A has a certain amount of value above others at his position. Likewise, if Player B gains three yards on a play on which, under similar circumstances, an average NFL back gains four yards, that Player B has negative value relative to others at his position. Once we make all our adjustments, we can evaluate the difference between this player’s rate of success and the expected success rate of an average running back in the same situation (or between the opposing defense and the average defense in the same situation, etc.). Add up every play by a certain team or player, divide by the total of the various baselines* for success in all those situations, and you get VOA, or Value Over Average.

The biggest variable in football is the fact that each team plays a different schedule against teams of disparate quality. By adjusting each play based on the opposing defense’s average success in stopping that type of play over the course of a season, we get DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. Rushing and passing plays are adjusted based on down and location on the field; passing plays are also adjusted based on how the defense performs against passes to running backs, tight ends, or wide receivers. Defenses are adjusted based on the average success of the offenses they are facing. (Yes, technically the defensive stats are actually “offense-adjusted.” If it seems weird, think of the “D” in “DVOA” as standing for “opponent-Dependent” or something.)

The final step in calculating DVOA involves normalizing each year's ratings. As you may know, offensive levels in the NFL have gone up and down over the years. Right now, the overall level of offense in the league is probably at its highest level of all time. Therefore, we need to ensure that DVOA in a given season isn't skewed by league environment.

For teams, DVOA is normalized so that league averages for offense and defense are 0%. (However, because pass plays are more efficient than run plays, league averages for team passing and team rushing are not zero.) For players, DVOA is normalized separately for individual passing, individual rushing, and the three individual receiving groups (wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs) so that the league average for each is 0%.

Of course, one of the hardest parts of understanding a new statistic is interpreting its scale. To use DVOA, you have to know what numbers represent good performance and what numbers represent bad performance. We’ve made that easy. In all cases, 0% represents league-average. A positive DVOA represents a situation that favors the offense, while a negative DVOA represents a situation that favors the defense. This is why the best offenses have positive DVOA ratings (last year, Green Bay led the league at +33.8%) and the best defenses have negative DVOA ratings (with Baltimore number one in 2011 at -17.1%). In most years, the best and worst offenses tend to rate around ± 30%, while the best and worst defenses tend to rate around ± 25%. For starting players, the scale tends to reach roughly ± 40% for passing and receiving, and ± 30% for rushing. As you might imagine, some players with fewer attempts will surpass both extremes.

DVOA has three main advantages over more traditional ways to judge NFL performance. First, by subtracting defense DVOA from offense DVOA (and adding in special teams DVOA, which is described below), we can create a set of team rankings that's based on play-by-play efficiency rather than total yards. Because DVOA does a better job of explaining past wins and predicting future wins than total yards, it gives a more accurate picture of how much better (or worse) a team really is relative to the rest of the league.

Because it compares each play only to plays with similar circumstances, this advantage also applies vis-a-vis situational team rankings. The list of top DVOA offenses on third down, for example, is more accurate than the conventional NFL conversion statistic because it takes into account that converting third-and-long is more difficult than converting third-and-short, and that a turnover is worse than an incomplete pass because it eliminates the opportunity to move the other team back with a punt on fourth down. The same could be said about plays on fourth down or in the red zone.

Second, unlike formulas based on comparing drives rather than individual plays, DVOA can be separated into a myriad of splits (e.g., by down, by week, by distance needed for a first down, etc.). Therefore, we're able to break teams and players down to find strengths and weaknesses in a variety of situations. All Pittsburgh third downs can be compared to how an average team does on third down. Kevin Kolb and John Skelton can each be compared to how an average quarterback performs in the red zone, or with a lead, or in the second half of the game. This doesn't just give us a better idea of which team or player is better. More importantly, it helps us understand why they're better, and therefore allows us to offer prescriptions for improvement in the future.

Finally, a third advantage of DVOA is that normalization makes our comparisons of current teams and players to past teams and players (going back to 1991) more accurate than those based on traditional statistics like wins or total yards, as well as those based on more sophisticated metrics that aren't normalized (e.g., expected points added, passer rating differential, etc.). For instance, which team had the better offense: the 2011 New Orleans Saints or the 1998 Denver Broncos? Going by total yardage (7,474 vs. 6,092) or even yards per play (6.7 vs. 5.9), it's not even a contest. The Saints were clearly better. However, this ignores the fact that the average NFL offense was much more pass-oriented, and thus more efficient, in 2011 than in 1998. If we take the difference in offensive environment into account by using DVOA, it turns out that Denver's offense was slightly better relative to the rest of the league (34.5% to 33.0%).
 
Love Tannehill as the QB for the Phins, but you can't compare the 2. Luck is and was a bonafide starter from high school up to the pro ranks. He's got all the tools to become an Elite QB and the reason why he was a general consensus #1 pick, QBs like him only come out every few years. I'm not gunna lie I was on the 'suck for luck' bandwagon that year and would trade the whole team for the kid and 2 1st rd picks. When the Phins started winning games is when I thought alright who would be the next best and I've always believed Tannehill was the 2nd best QB in that draft, yes even over RG3 and Wilson, and would make him the pick over and over again if it wasn't going to be Luck.
With all that said I still believe in Tannehill he has all the tools as well to at least come somewhat close to that, he just needs to grow.
 
Tannehill was always a bit of a project. Hell some people want him to sit a year.

Luck was considered the next Peyton Manning. He was considered the top pick his entire senior year.

I don't understand why people feel the need to compare them right now.
 
When I am at the games, I do have the luxury of following players on the sideline to monitor their demeanor. If you're watching on TV then I don't expect you to see the same. For example, Tom Brady usually rips someone a new ******* if they drop a pass or run the wrong route. I love that passion because he is willing to hold himself and others accountable.

Yet qbs like Peyton Manning and Montana are not like that. I guess they lacked passion. This argument is ridiculous.
 
183 yards rushing 3 TD vs 70 yards rushing (1 fumble) no TD's. That is another dimension Luck adds to the game.

That and his pocket awareness which is special, while Tannehill has "below average" pocket awareness. However I think Tannehill must be judged with a better combo of OT's, still sometimes he hold the ball way too much time, and makes stupid throws. I think experience might cut some of that, but like Sanchez, it might not. Still too soon to tell. I am optimistic about him but not SOLD at all.

They all make stupid throws. Tannehill has 7 Ints, he had 5 of those in 2 games. Look defense have figured out the line is really bad and his tendencies. What I want see the rest of the way and what will determine how good he could be is whether he adjusts or not. Honestly, this team was never going anywhere, so if Tannehill shakes off the ass kickings and shows progress, I will be ok with an 8-8 season, because it means that we have a qb and we could add other pieces.
 
Luck's play in the clutch and playmaking ability overall was much better than Tannehill's last year, and it is again this year, and that has been while running a more difficult offense from the standpoint of the quarterback's role. See here, for example:

http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...eden-An-Objective-Analysis-(Part-I)&highlight=

http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...hill-Going-to-Become-a-Franchise-QB&highlight=

This likely has a great deal to do with why their teams have had such different records during their tenures with them.

Wrong again. Luck is running the exact same offense he ran at Stanford this year as the Colts hired his old OC from Stanford this past offseason. The Colts new offense is much more run based with less down field throwing and more short/intermediate routes. They actually chose to switch to this offensive philosophy because Luck is more comfortable in it. Sorry to point these things out but we don't want to get things like facts in the way of a good argument.
 
Wrong again. Luck is running the exact same offense he ran at Stanford this year as the Colts hired his old OC from Stanford this past offseason. The Colts new offense is much more run based with less down field throwing and more short/intermediate routes. They actually chose to switch to this offensive philosophy because Luck is more comfortable in it. Sorry to point these things out but we don't want to get things like facts in the way of a good argument.
I'm happy to see any objective evidence that says the frequency with which Luck passes the ball, and the frequency with which he throws downfield, both of which were detailed in the thread you quoted, are significantly different this year from last year. :)

In other words, you have a point you aren't supporting with any data. You're going on theory alone, based on the fact that he now has his college OC in tow, whereas it could be the case that he's functioning with regard to those two variables no differently this year than he was last year.

So, do your research, and then get back to me when you can actually have a legitimate attitude. ;)
 
I'm happy to see any objective evidence that says the frequency with which Luck passes the ball, and the frequency with which he throws downfield, both of which were detailed in the thread you quoted, are significantly different this year from last year. :)

In other words, you have a point you aren't supporting with any data. You're going on theory alone, based on the fact that he now has his college OC in tow, whereas it could be the case that he's functioning with regard to those two variables no differently this year than he was last year.

So, do your research, and then get back to me when you can actually have a legitimate attitude. ;)

Here's some research, actual video evidence that I didn't have to make up.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ove-Deco...walls/204086042?N=bza7Z1z0zd61#specifications

Here's also an excerpt from the article. Like I said, don't let facts get in the way.

Hamilton, the Colts' first-year offensive coordinator, spent two seasons working with Luck at Stanford. Hamilton's extensive knowledge of Luck's game makes it easy for him to build around the quarterback's strengths as a passer. Also, Hamilton is well aware of Luck's uncanny ability to get his team in the correct call in the running game. Stanford pummeled opponents with a power running game that featured a number of "check with me" calls (the quarterback decides whether to run or pass at the line of scrimmage, based on the defensive alignment). Additionally, Hamilton's implementation of a power-based running game helps Luck see more loaded boxes, which creates high-percentage passing opportunities on the outside in early downs. Given Luck's high football IQ/arm talent, the presence of a stout running game could take his game to another level.

The Colts spent the entire offseason crafting a power-based system that features a ton of inside runs designed to soften the interior of the defense. This is the perfect system for free-agent addition Ahmad Bradshaw and trade acquisition Trent Richardson. They both excel at grinding out tough yards between the tackles while also providing a hint of explosiveness on the perimeter.

Also here's another article describing how the new Colts offense is much more west coast based and horizontal vs the old vertical offense from 2012. With actual quotes from Luck and Hamilton.

Instead, we can expect Hamilton to import the offense he ran at Stanford -- basically the West Coast offense, which spreads the field horizontally and focuses on shorter passes that pick up smaller chunks of yardage -- and tweak it for the Colts players.

“It'll be a variation of the West Coast [with] West Coast principles,” Hamilton said, via the newspaper. “The short, efficient passing game, a high completion rate.

“But I enjoy watching our guys just come off the ball, the guys up front, and trying to knock the opponent back. I'm a big believer of the power-running game and ... I think that ultimately opens up your passing game, the play-action passes.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...rew-luck-excited-to-be-working-together-again

How's that for you and your ****ty,smug smiley faces you like to post when YOU THINK you have someone outsmarted. Now tell me again why the offense the Colts run is so much tougher to run than the Fins, when in fact they actually share the exact same philosophies. That's right it isn't, you made it up, got caught in a lie and will now probably not respond.
 
Here's some research, actual video evidence that I didn't have to make up.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ove-Deco...walls/204086042?N=bza7Z1z0zd61#specifications

Here's also an excerpt from the article. Like I said, don't let facts get in the way.

Also here's another article describing how the new Colts offense is much more west coast based and horizontal vs the old vertical offense from 2012. With actual quotes from Luck and Hamilton.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...rew-luck-excited-to-be-working-together-again

How's that for you and your ****ty,smug smiley faces you like to post when YOU THINK you have someone outsmarted. Now tell me again why the offense the Colts run is so much tougher to run than the Fins, when in fact they actually share the exact same philosophies. That's right it isn't, you made it up, got caught in a lie and will now probably not respond.
Again, you're stuck in the land of theory. Next. :)
 
1. Luck vs Tannehill has played out twice so far, the 1st one Luck looked better, the 2nd Tannehill looked, better, but the consistent thing from both games is, neither was much better the other but both looked good, one happned to looked better, and the winner just looked a little better then the other.

2. Last year both were rated close each other, and this year both have been again rated close to each other.

3. Both are big, both are very smart, both are pocket passers that can run with the ball if need be. The thing that makes them different is, Luck is a far more finished product, Tannehill is still learning, and has more ceiling to reach, real question is how much more ceiling, and is Tannehill able to reach it.

4. Both have O-line issues, Luck if the O-line collapses will still make something out of nothing better with his legs, while Tannehill of the two does not need as much time to make a pass play as Luck does.

5. Both had the advantage of very QB position savvy fathers, and from a very young age, learned the position better then most got the chance to.


I know nobody wants to hear that Tannehill could be as good as Luck, but the eye test normally tells you more then what the reputation of each is supposed to indicate. Tannehill still has a ways to go, but you can tell if he continues to grow, people will not just be forced to add his name to the Luck, Wilson, RGIII conversation, but they may need to add which of the four is actually better.
 
1. Luck vs Tannehill has played out twice so far, the 1st one Luck looked better, the 2nd Tannehill looked, better, but the consistent thing from both games is, neither was much better the other but both looked good, one happned to looked better, and the winner just looked a little better then the other.

2. Last year both were rated close each other, and this year both have been again rated close to each other.

3. Both are big, both are very smart, both are pocket passers that can run with the ball if need be. The thing that makes them different is, Luck is a far more finished product, Tannehill is still learning, and has more ceiling to reach, real question is how much more ceiling, and is Tannehill able to reach it.

4. Both have O-line issues, Luck if the O-line collapses will still make something out of nothing better with his legs, while Tannehill of the two does not need as much time to make a pass play as Luck does.

5. Both had the advantage of very QB position savvy fathers, and from a very young age, learned the position better then most got the chance to.


I know nobody wants to hear that Tannehill could be as good as Luck, but the eye test normally tells you more then what the reputation of each is supposed to indicate. Tannehill still has a ways to go, but you can tell if he continues to grow, people will not just be forced to add his name to the Luck, Wilson, RGIII conversation, but they may need to add which of the four is actually better.

Please Luck is a once in a decade talent... he will win multiple super bowls.

Tanny is just another in a long line of mediocre QB's we've trotted out since Dan.
 
I am tired to death of this topic so I'll just say this once. Luck was the once in a generation QB that Dan Marino, Brady, Manning, and Montana were. You only get so many of these QB's and every year they're contenders. They carry their squads, make something out of nothing, and have the "it" factor.

Ryan Tannehill does not have this factor. He has no feel for the pocket collapsing. He has no passion for the game. He probably couldn't tell you the teams in every division. He plays the QB position like a guy who used to be a WR.

From year 1 to year 2 he's still staring guys down, still using the same "go go" snaps, still turning the ball over at alarming rates, and still under .500. Sorry, Luck and Tannehill are not close in talent or ability.
 
I am tired to death of this topic so I'll just say this once. Luck was the once in a generation QB that Dan Marino, Brady, Manning, and Montana were. You only get so many of these QB's and every year they're contenders. They carry their squads, make something out of nothing, and have the "it" factor.

Ryan Tannehill does not have this factor. He has no feel for the pocket collapsing. He has no passion for the game. He probably couldn't tell you the teams in every division. He plays the QB position like a guy who used to be a WR.

From year 1 to year 2 he's still staring guys down, still using the same "go go" snaps, still turning the ball over at alarming rates, and still under .500. Sorry, Luck and Tannehill are not close in talent or ability.

Stupid assumptions meet fan speak...
 
Again, you're stuck in the land of theory. Next. :)

How are direct quotes from the Colts OC a theory? He states his offensive philosophy, which directly disproves your prior post that the Colts offense is tougher to run than the Fins, as the philosophies behind the two are almost exactly the same. Some of the things you post when you are proven wrong are just asinine.
 
Back
Top Bottom