The Fall of the Patriots | Page 14 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The Fall of the Patriots

dude, but 5 seasons with the browns and 8 games under 500 as there coach, and then 5-11 year 1 with pats, and starts 0-2 in year 2 and looks to be on his way out with another losing season.

its to coincidental that he just all of the sudden became a great coach.

im sorry, and everyone is deff entitled to there own opinion, but his lack of success prior to brady and after brady leans more towards my side of the argument.

lets keep in mind, its not like BB teams were doing well year in and year out and getting bounced from the playoffs before brady, they were pretty bad each year with the exception of the 11-5 season in 94 with cleveland

So if a coach doesn't succeed at each stop then he is just not a good coach and got lucky. I mean one stop with out success then he is no good. every situation is different and we are in a different era of football.
Bill pArcells never made a superbowl without bill Belichek as his DC so does that mean Parcells may not have been a good coach, he just had the best dc in the league. If all it took was a great qb then Peyton Manning would have more than one superbowl ring in 16 years and Dan Marino would definitely have more than none.
 
didn't miss the marino era best qb ever and how may rings did he win by himself. You made my point. Also lets not act like Clayton and Duper were some scrubs he turned into all stars.

actually I believe Clayton and Duper were average players he turned into star receivers.
 
So if a coach doesn't succeed at each stop then he is just not a good coach and got lucky. I mean one stop with out success then he is no good. every situation is different and we are in a different era of football.
Bill pArcells never made a superbowl without bill Belichek as his DC so does that mean Parcells may not have been a good coach, he just had the best dc in the league. If all it took was a great qb then Peyton Manning would have more than one superbowl ring in 16 years and Dan Marino would definitely have more than none.

BB has also never won a SB w/o Parcells' old staff. BB also had the best defensive player of all time on those Giants Ds. If Peyton would play like a great QB in January he'd have 4-5 SBs by now instead of 1 where his run game/D carried him.
 
So if a coach doesn't succeed at each stop then he is just not a good coach and got lucky. I mean one stop with out success then he is no good. every situation is different and we are in a different era of football.
Bill pArcells never made a superbowl without bill Belichek as his DC so does that mean Parcells may not have been a good coach, he just had the best dc in the league. If all it took was a great qb then Peyton Manning would have more than one superbowl ring in 16 years and Dan Marino would definitely have more than none.

it wasnt just one stop, he was doing awful with the pats before brady. in 18 games with the pats, he had a 5-13 record and was most likely on his way out before mo lewis knocked out drew bledsoe and opened the door for tom brady.

good qbs make coaches look good.

lets see if BB sticks around for 3-4 years after brady and see what happens. unfortunately i do not think he will.
 
didn't miss the marino era best qb ever and how may rings did he win by himself. You made my point. Also lets not act like Clayton and Duper were some scrubs he turned into all stars.

Actually I did not make your point. I completely discredited your point by giving an example that proves your point incorrect. I understand your reading comprehension and logic skills suffer greatly so I will try this again. Here was your point.....

That's like judging Pete Carroll by his former nfl stops. No qb in the history of the nfl is so good that the team is good every year because of him.

This states nothing of Super Bowls so I do not know why you brought up the fact that Marino could not win one with a bunch of trash on defense and average players on offense who he lit up scoreboards with. Well actually I do know why. I mentioned it already.

Your statement is simple. You claim there has never been a QB in NFL history to make his team good every year because of his play alone. I offer Dan Marino as a counter to your claim. If you want to get technical and say because we had one losing season with him that discounts him from the "every year" part of your argument, then so be it. That would have been your smart counter, but again, I did not expect you to be able to follow.

I believe the overall point still stands, that having a great QB like Marino or Tom Brady will allow your team to have success almost every season over a long period of time.
 
it wasnt just one stop, he was doing awful with the pats before brady. in 18 games with the pats, he had a 5-13 record and was most likely on his way out before mo lewis knocked out drew bledsoe and opened the door for tom brady.

good qbs make coaches look good.

lets see if BB sticks around for 3-4 years after brady and see what happens. unfortunately i do not think he will.
Your speaking of his first season with the Patriots and here was a reason his previous coach got fired. I doubt he will hang on past Brady for anothereason, he has been coaching a long time and has 5 super bowl rings, two as a DC. He ha nothing else to prove by sticking around. I think at some point he may want to just enjoy his life.He is not far from the age that Don Shula was retire as.
 
Your speaking of his first season with the Patriots and here was a reason his previous coach got fired. I doubt he will hang on past Brady for anothereason, he has been coaching a long time and has 5 super bowl rings, two as a DC. He ha nothing else to prove by sticking around. I think at some point he may want to just enjoy his life.He is not far from the age that Don Shula was retire as.

his first season plus the beginning of 2001 w/o Brady. They were 8-8 the year before he took over(and only had one losing season since 1994- in 1995) and many of the players that would help them win the SB in 2001 were on the team.

had a QB Parcells somehow managed to get to a SB
Kevin Faulk
Troy Brown
Terry Glenn(though he didn't help them in 2001)
Damien Woody
Ted Johnson
Tedy Bruschi
Willie McGinest
Ty Law
Lawyer Milloy
Adam Vinatieri

and a bunch of guys he brought in that offseason that would help them win like Andruzzi, Otis Smith, Bobby Hamilton, etc... yet he could only get 5 wins out of that group- their worst record since Parcells took over an awful franchise in 1993.

In 2001 they started 0-2 w/o Brady including losing to a bad Bengal team then magically they won 11 of 14 games as soon as Brady became starter. I guess it all just clicked at that point.
 
his first season plus the beginning of 2001 w/o Brady. They were 8-8 the year before he took over(and only had one losing season since 1994- in 1995) and many of the players that would help them win the SB in 2001 were on the team.

had a QB Parcells somehow managed to get to a SB
Kevin Faulk
Troy Brown
Terry Glenn(though he didn't help them in 2001)
Damien Woody
Ted Johnson
Tedy Bruschi
Willie McGinest
Ty Law
Lawyer Milloy
Adam Vinatieri

and a bunch of guys he brought in that offseason that would help them win like Andruzzi, Otis Smith, Bobby Hamilton, etc... yet he could only get 5 wins out of that group- their worst record since Parcells took over an awful franchise in 1993.

In 2001 they started 0-2 w/o Brady including losing to a bad Bengal team then magically they won 11 of 14 games as soon as Brady became starter. I guess it all just clicked at that point.
Please go back to the years when the Patriots won the superbowls and actually study them and tell me the only reason they won was because of Brady. 2001 Their defense played great in the playoffs and same in the other two superbowls. 2001 first game of playoffs against Oakland help them to 159 yards passing and 230 total yards. won 16-13. Game 2 versus Pittsburgh , intercepted them 3 times and sacked him three times winning 24-17. Brady was knocked out of this game early and they won it with Drew Bledsoe at qb. Superbowl versus St Louis. The Rams gained a decent amount of yards from their high powered offense but the patriot defense holds one of the best offenses ever to 17 friggin points. The patriots defense that year went the last nine games without letting an opponent break 20 points a game, kind of a coincidence since they won the last nine games. Please o back and revise the history of the Patriot during the superbowl wins and tell me the defense was not as big a factor as Brady was in the victories.
 
Please go back to the years when the Patriots won the superbowls and actually study them and tell me the only reason they won was because of Brady. 2001 Their defense played great in the playoffs and same in the other two superbowls. 2001 first game of playoffs against Oakland help them to 159 yards passing and 230 total yards. won 16-13. Game 2 versus Pittsburgh , intercepted them 3 times and sacked him three times winning 24-17. Brady was knocked out of this game early and they won it with Drew Bledsoe at qb. Superbowl versus St Louis. The Rams gained a decent amount of yards from their high powered offense but the patriot defense holds one of the best offenses ever to 17 friggin points. The patriots defense that year went the last nine games without letting an opponent break 20 points a game, kind of a coincidence since they won the last nine games. Please o back and revise the history of the Patriot during the superbowl wins and tell me the defense was not as big a factor as Brady was in the victories.

at no point did I say the ONLY reason they won was b/c of Brady. He was the biggest reason, they don't even make the playoffs w/o him but of course he wasn't the only reason.

the only SB winning postseason the D played really well in was 2001 but Oak was in a blizzard, Pitt was led by Kordell Stewart and they blew a 14 pt 4th qtr lead to SL.

Bledsoe did very little at Pitt other than finish off a drive Brady started. STs scored twice I think.
 
at no point did I say the ONLY reason they won was b/c of Brady. He was the biggest reason, they don't even make the playoffs w/o him but of course he wasn't the only reason.

the only SB winning postseason the D played really well in was 2001 but Oak was in a blizzard, Pitt was led by Kordell Stewart and they blew a 14 pt 4th qtr lead to SL.

Bledsoe did very little at Pitt other than finish off a drive Brady started. STs scored twice I think.

I think u might want to research 2003 . 17 -14 win over tennesee. Brady went 21 of 41 for 200 yards. the defense played great that game. 24-14 win over Peyton Manning and the Colts.4 sacks and 4 interceptions. They held a team that had scored 41 and 38 pts in their previous two playff wins to 14. defense was a huge part of those super bowl wins. The reason that the Pats haven't won a superbowl since is their defense hasn't been as good as it was. In 2003 and 2004 the pats had one of the best defenses in the nfl
 
I think u might want to research 2003 . 17 -14 win over tennesee. Brady went 21 of 41 for 200 yards. the defense played great that game. 24-14 win over Peyton Manning and the Colts.4 sacks and 4 interceptions. They held a team that had scored 41 and 38 pts in their previous two playff wins to 14. defense was a huge part of those super bowl wins. The reason that the Pats haven't won a superbowl since is their defense hasn't been as good as it was. In 2003 and 2004 the pats had one of the best defenses in the nfl

2003 postseason when the D allowed 29 pts in the SB including 19 pts in the 4th qtr yet still won somehow.

The reason the Pats won those first 2 SBs and lost the last 2 was b/c when the D choked they gave Brady enough time in the first 2 and didn't give him enough time in the last 2- that's the only difference.
 
2003 postseason when the D allowed 29 pts in the SB including 19 pts in the 4th qtr yet still won somehow.

The reason the Pats won those first 2 SBs and lost the last 2 was b/c when the D choked they gave Brady enough time in the first 2 and didn't give him enough time in the last 2- that's the only difference.

so in 6 playoff games the d gives up 29 points once and the d choked. 5 playoff games of holding teams below 20 points and the d was choking. You obviously are not dealing with any facts just an opinion u will stick to regardless.
Then there was 2004 they held the colts to 3 points while scoring 20 holding the colts to 276 yards total offense, They did give up 27 points to Pittsburgh but also intercepted the qb 3 times including returning one for a td.
Superbowl intercepted Mcnabb three times and sacked him 4 times while holding out for a 24-21 win. Those patriot superbowls were built on defense. The reason they lost the most recent superbowls was the defense was not as good.
You can post away on this all you want now. I have shown the numbers you choose to ignore because of your bias. So the one game they did allow 29 points you use as your evidence although ignoring how they shutdown the Colts and other teams in playoffs and the key turnovers that the defense created.
Not to mention in that same game the sack that caused the fumble at the Panthers 20 yard line which led to a touchdown which Im sure matters since they won the game by only three points. Brady has been a huge part of their success but to ignore that they had a top notch defense during that run and act like he is the only reason they have won shows that you truly don't know what you are talking about. How do you cannot give credit to the d when they intercept Manning 4 times is beyond me and act like that has no impact on the game or that intercepting mcnabb three times has not as much impact as Brady is beyond me. Im done with the argument. I have presented what actually happened you can portray belicheck as just along for the ride after his team held the colts to to an average of 8.5 points in two playoff games . Im sure the patriots being ranked 1st and 2nd in points given up in 2003 and 2004 had nothing to do with them winning a superbowl. or being 6th in points given up in their first superbowl. Im done
 
blew an historic 14 pt lead in the first SB
2 years later gave up 19 4th qtr pts in the 2nd SB

nah, they were great

held the Colts to 3 pts? that's great, Peyton choked again. we shut him out 2 years earlier.

you are flustered, nowhere did I say they didn't contribute but they won on the back of Brady. of course the other units helped but w/o Brady they have no shot.
 
An excellent article unsimplifying the disingenuous fans and excusers attempts to exonerate the Cheatriots

http://nypost.com/20...started-it-all/

Before the start of the football season, Cary Williams, a veteran cornerback for the Philadelphia Eagles, reminded the sports world about a scandal the NFL would prefer people forget.

“One fact still remains: They haven’t won a Super Bowl since they got caught. They are cheaters,” Williams said in August.

He was referring to Spygate, when the New England Patriots were busted for illegally videotaping the Jets’ defensive signals during the first game of the 2007 season.

Then, as now with a series of disturbing incidents of domestic violence, the NFL seemed more interested in covering up the problem than investigating it.

“It really shows you what’s truly important to the NFL — and that’s ‘duck and cover,’ ” said Bryan O’Leary, author of the book “Spygate: The Untold Story.”

And that’s why certain allegations — including that the Pats were using a radio frequency outside the NFL’s purview to ­illegally communicate information to quarterback Tom Brady during the game — were seemingly ignored, O’Leary says.

The Jets play their arch rivals again this Thursday, and some fans are still fuming about the advantage the Patriots had over them — and that it was never fully probed.

“I just don’t understand it,” said lifelong Jets fan Ira Lieberfarb, 60. “They got caught cheating, and it should have been investigated in more ­detail. I find it very strange.”

It was seven years ago that Jets security confiscated a sideline camera and tape from a Patriots video assistant during their Sept. 9 game at the Meadowlands.

The spying was a blatant violation of league rules, since knowing what an opponent will do on any given play confers an ­immense advantage to a team.

As 49ers quarterback Steve Young once explained to ESPN: “The game would be over. If I knew what was coming, that’s the whole game.”

It was Jets head coach Eric Mangini, a former Pats defensive coordinator, who dropped a dime to NFL security about the sideline shenanigans of his former mentor, New England head coach Bill Belichick.

Mangini already had prepared an elaborate system to foil his former team.

“He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots” the previous year, a former Pats employee told Sports Illustrated.

But that meant extra work — that both teams were not playing on the same level field, the ex-staffer noted.

“I wasn’t going to give them the convenience of doing it in our stadium, and I wanted to shut it down,” Mangini said on “NFL Live,” adding that he later regretted doing it. “There was no intent to have the landslide that it has become.”

The filming was fairly straightforward — a staffer pointed a camera at an opposing team’s coaches from across the field. And it had gone on for nearly a decade — since Belichick took over the Pats in 2000, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell later revealed.

It was so obvious, the Pats were busted several times before Spygate erupted, including a year earlier, during a 35-0 thrashing of Green Bay.


The Packers spotted Pats video assistant Matt Estrella — who was also shooting the video during the Jets game the next season — shooting unauthorized video from the sidelines. He was asked to leave — then was spotted doing it from a tunnel, which got him booted from Lambeau Field.

“From what I can remember, he had quite a fit when we took him out,” Packers President Bob Harlan said.

When the Lions played the Pats in Foxboro in 2006, the same thing happened, Sports ­Illustrated reported.

“ ‘There’s a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?’ a Lions’ employee asked in a call to the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again,” the magazine reported at the time.

But it wasn’t just a matter of filming opposing team’s coaches — it was also how that information was allegedly passed to Brady.


As the scandal broke, the NFL was investigating a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during the Jets game, sources told ESPN’s Chris Mortensen, who reported at the time that the Pats did not “have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.”

Quarterbacks communicate with the sidelines via microphones in their helmets that pick up an NFL-monitored radio frequency. An NFL sideline official cuts off communications on this frequency 15 seconds before the play clock runs out.

O’Leary — who uses data crunched by a Las Vegas bookie and a Ph.D. statistician from China with no previous familiarity with Spygate — suggests Patriots “director of football research” Ernie Adams, a prep-school chum of Belichick from Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass., was the nerve center behind the chicanery.

Offensive plays would be called based on stolen signals and the information relayed straight to Brady’s helmet, O’Leary theorizes.

In this scenario, the extra frequency is critical, as it allows the team to do something in real time with the stolen signals, out of earshot of the NFL monitor, and change its plays accordingly.

If there’s an open channel during the play itself, you can also alert the quarterback to open receivers he may not see.

O’Leary repeats a rumor that Pats backup quarterback Doug Flutie once said he accidentally picked up Brady’s helmet during the 2005 season.

“He was amazed that the coaches kept right on speaking to Brady past the 15-second cutoff, right up until the snap,” ­according to O’Leary.

“The voice in Tom Brady’s helmet was explaining the exact defense he was about to face.”


That same year, Pats linebacker Ted Johnson told USA Today that an hour before game time, a list of the opposing team’s audibles — the signals a QB would use at the line of scrimmage just before a snap to change the play — would sometimes appear in his locker. He had no idea where the lists came from. Three years later, he said he was as surprised as anyone to hear about the cheating allegations.

Action from then-rookie  Commissioner Goodell  was suspiciously swift, critics said.

Less than a week after the tape was confiscated, Goodell on Sept. 13 issued an emergency order compelling the Pats to fork over any other tapes. Yet before receiving any of them, he handed down his punishment: taking away the Pats’ first-round draft pick the next year, while fining the team $250,000 and Belichick — who claimed he simply misinterpreted the rulebook and never used video to gain a competitive advantage — the league maximum $500,000.

On Sept. 20, the NFL announced the Pats handed over six tapes and two days later said little about what the recordings contained — only that they had been destroyed.

“When somebody has a hit that looks suspicious, it takes the league three to four days of looking at a tape, then they ­issue a fine,” O’Leary said.

“In this case, they had a team that potentially stole three Super Bowls, and they issued a verdict in four days. Does that sound like the NFL was trying to get to the bottom of anything?”

And the league’s actions didn’t sit well with some outside observers, including the Sen. Arlen Specter, who requested a meeting with Goodell in November 2008 to learn why the tapes had been destroyed
.

What Specter learned from the one-hour, 40-minute sitdown in February 2008 was that the Pats had been spying on opposing teams for nearly a decade, ever since Belichick’s first year as head coach of the Pats.

“There was confirmation that there has been taping since 2000, when Coach Belichick took over,” said Specter, who called for an independent probe similar to a Mitchell Report on performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. It never materialized.

“I found a lot of questions unanswerable because the tapes and notes had been destroyed,” said the late Pennsylvania lawmaker. “We have a right to have honest football games.”

Despite rhetoric from the Beltway, the Patriots received no further sanctions — even after a long-delayed meeting in May 2008 between Goodell and Matt Walsh, an ex-Pats videographer who worked for the team from 2000 to 2002. Walsh came forward and eventually handed the league eight additional tapes, including evidence that the team was swiping in-game defensive and offensive signals against ­Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and San Diego in 2000 and 2001.

Belichick assured the league the team never used information from the tapes during the same game and said he simply misinterpreted the league’s rule.

But critics such as O’Leary don’t buy it.

“If you tape a defensive coach’s signaling in the plays, and you compare it to the action of the field, you can quickly discover that when they flap their arms like a seagull, they’re in a blitz,” he said. “The basic formations are pretty easy to decipher with just a quarter of the action taped.”

Walsh did not return The Post’s call for comment, but
in 2008 he told “Real Sports With Bryant Gumbel” that the team’s intent was clear.

“Coach Belichick’s explanation for having misinterpreted the rules, to me, that really didn’t sound like taking responsibility for what we had done, especially considering the great lengths that we had gone through to hide what we were doing.”


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"Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did," Johnson said, before confirming it was done via video.
"Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league," Johnson continued. "Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you're going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace."

"My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you'd just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That's the best way to do it, but anyway you can't always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they're on the same side as the opposing team that's when you need to do it from the sideline."


I am sure it was ok for Jimmy Johnson to do it though
 
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