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The stolen tapes?

Zod...MisterMurder, thanks for such an informitive thread. Infact.. IMHO the most informitive thread I have had the privilege of reading in this forum todate.

Perhaps it should be made a manditory read before a member can log on. That would certainly cut down on the anti Norv post.

I became a fan of Jay because of the adversity he's had. I just love his heart and pit bull approach to the game. Having said this it has been obivious that Jay is just flat out inaccurate and has cost this team dearly.

Thanks for giving us a glimpse of what Norv was attempting to get done here. Let's hope he gets another chance.
 
Hopefully this turns the vibes around. Norv has integrated many west coast things of late for red zone/ third and short looks (3-5 yard range). The focus was on skill talent in straight ahead schemes winning per man battles to help the team.
Norv has used more pullblocks as well, perhaps an indication his line play is not what he would like.
McMichael is worth a first rounder in my book, Mr.Fundamental blok/catch TE who can line up slot. CHambers has speed clear out ability, the others wr Gadsen and Thompson have size to be go-to in an Irvin mold. DT needs to bulk up for those go-to downs and be durable. Gadsden is just an all around dissappointment after initial success.
Ricky has shown a tremendous effort too. His dedication can not be doubted to the sport, his teammates, and his self. Nice to see him find acceptance of his abilities and demeanor and really become the Ricky everyone hoped for!
Those route upgrades will come soon... hoping to see Norv get them over the hump and make this stuff work. The AFC East deserves that much, and the NFL would be better as well.Good Luck Sunday!
 
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Originally posted by Mr.Murder
Hopefully this turns the vibes around. Norv has integrated many west coast things of late for red zone/ third and short looks 93-5 yard range). The focus was on skill talent in straight ahead schemes winning per man battles to help the team.
Norv has used more pullblocks as well, perhaps an indication his line play is not what he would like.
McMichael is worth a first rounder in my book, Mr.Fundamental blcok/catch TE who can line up slot. CHambers has speed clear out ability, the others wr Gadsen and Thompson have size to be go-to in an Irvin mold. DT needs to bulk up for those go-to downs and be durable. Gadsden is just an all around dissappointment after initial success.
Ricky has shown a tremendous effort too. His dedication can not be doubted to the sport, his teammates, and his self. Nice to see him find acceptance of his abilities and demeanor and really become the Ricky everyone hoped for!
Those route upgrades will come soon... hoping to see Norv get them over the hump and make this stuff work. The AFC East deserves that much, and the NFL would be better as well.Good Luck Sunday!
Click to expand...

Thanks Bro...and keep the quality post coming. I have appreciated all of your post and insight. Not nary a time have I seen you diss the team or a member here.
 
Originally posted by themole
Perhaps it should be made a manditory read before a member can log on. That would certainly cut down on the anti Norv post.
Click to expand...

If anything it should increase the anti-Norv posts.

What Mr. Murder pointed out was that the Cowboys had the offensive talent to get it done. The Saint Louis Rams (since the trade for Faulk) have had the talent to get it done. If you notice a downfield scheme is always dependant upon two excellent wide receivers (Holt and Bruce, Price and Moulds, Irvin and Harper). We don't have that and it's damn difficult to find a team will. The Cowboys attained theirs through the Herschel Walker trade. The Rams attained theirs through perennially sucking and a gift from Indianapolis in Marshall Faulk. Buffalo meanwhile could not mount the defense or offensive line to match their skill players last year.

My point is that you have to go horizontally (ala Walsh) to meet the average play that can be attained. The scheme has to be "average" to meet the "average" talent.

This blueprint is all over the NFL. Philadelphia can't seem to find out which RB to use because they all succeed because of the system. New England has the same trait. The Ravens won the SB with a lessor QB that was quickly snapped up by another Walsh coach in Seattle. The teams that are winning today are the teams that are giving their players a chance with the system. It's not the reverse case as it was with the 90's Cowboys and 1999 Rams.

Check out the "success" a downfield attack based upon running between the tackles to bring the linebackers in is having in the NFL. In the AFC "giveaway" department, the teams that run a Walsh system or a similar spread offense seem to be taking care of the ball better.

Check it out (AFC).

Meanwhile in the NFC, our counterparts that are running the same Gillman approach of running between the tackles to open up downfield lead the division in "giveaways".

Check it out (NFC).

I believe that it is not coincidence that the two guys (Martz and Turner) that are linked at the Zampese hip are turning the ball over the most. You think it's coincidence?

Check out the results for the 2002 season. Same system, same results in the "giveaway" department.

AFC (Miami 30)

NFC (Rams 45)

The difference between the two teams is that one has more offensive talent to overcome the turnovers. That is why this system is flawed. It's difficult to amass the talent needed for it to succeed in the free agency era.

Look back to where the system first gained it's prominence. Dan Fouts, Charlie Joiner, and Kellen Winslow were the stars that made it successful. The 90's Cowboys were Aikman, Irvin, and Novachek. The 1999 Rams were Warner, Bruce, Hakim, and Holt.

The question you have to ask yourself in the free agency era is "Are we one name away from Fiedler, McMichael, Thompson, and Chambers matching the names above?" I believe we have two. The problem is that one of them is a year away from free agency.
 
Chambers can match it, Mcmichael can match it, Gadsden is the size of an Irvin chain mover. The QB and OL need upgrades. Ricky is great and your FB is the moose reborn...
The O line needs upgrades or Norv would not resort to movement/scheme to get results.
The QB sees less field and locks onto one Iso route more.... A taller QB with vision could look covers off Mcmichael's deep routes and throw downfield to Chambers in the same fashion to loosen a D up and allow Gadsden/DT to use their size to work the control catch. Then the rough edges would be rounded out by your FB ands McKnight...
The Phins skill talent can make this work. The lack of standout QB play across the board has forced more vanilla scheme and more west coast integration.
Proof the west coast can work with average talent.... Ty Detmer got to a championship game for ray RHodes with jon Gurden as his O coodrinator... and Gannon got an MVP with no arm whatsoever just smarts and a scheme....
The Skill is there to achieve the Norv Notion's goal... the man pulling the trigger and the line's stability/technique are what must be addressed.
The Bills are in their roll over and die mode today though, where is tatonka at? That clown paint of his will run when he cries after the loss today... the luck is turning just make it count!
 
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Originally posted by ZOD


If anything it should increase the anti-Norv posts.

What Mr. Murder pointed out was that the Cowboys had the offensive talent to get it done. The Saint Louis Rams (since the trade for Faulk) have had the talent to get it done. If you notice a downfield scheme is always dependant upon two excellent wide receivers (Holt and Bruce, Price and Moulds, Irvin and Harper). We don't have that and it's damn difficult to find a team will. The Cowboys attained theirs through the Herschel Walker trade. The Rams attained theirs through perennially sucking and a gift from Indianapolis in Marshall Faulk. Buffalo meanwhile could not mount the defense or offensive line to match their skill players last year.

My point is that you have to go horizontally (ala Walsh) to meet the average play that can be attained. The scheme has to be "average" to meet the "average" talent.

This blueprint is all over the NFL. Philadelphia can't seem to find out which RB to use because they all succeed because of the system. New England has the same trait. The Ravens won the SB with a lessor QB that was quickly snapped up by another Walsh coach in Seattle. The teams that are winning today are the teams that are giving their players a chance with the system. It's not the reverse case as it was with the 90's Cowboys and 1999 Rams.

Check out the "success" a downfield attack based upon running between the tackles to bring the linebackers in is having in the NFL. In the AFC "giveaway" department, the teams that run a Walsh system or a similar spread offense seem to be taking care of the ball better.

Check it out (AFC).

Meanwhile in the NFC, our counterparts that are running the same Gillman approach of running between the tackles to open up downfield lead the division in "giveaways".

Check it out (NFC).

I believe that it is not coincidence that the two guys (Martz and Turner) that are linked at the Zampese hip are turning the ball over the most. You think it's coincidence?

Check out the results for the 2002 season. Same system, same results in the "giveaway" department.

AFC (Miami 30)

NFC (Rams 45)

The difference between the two teams is that one has more offensive talent to overcome the turnovers. That is why this system is flawed. It's difficult to amass the talent needed for it to succeed in the free agency era.

Look back to where the system first gained it's prominence. Dan Fouts, Charlie Joiner, and Kellen Winslow were the stars that made it successful. The 90's Cowboys were Aikman, Irvin, and Novachek. The 1999 Rams were Warner, Bruce, Hakim, and Holt.

The question you have to ask yourself in the free agency era is "Are we one name away from Fiedler, McMichael, Thompson, and Chambers matching the names above?" I believe we have two. The problem is that one of them is a year away from free agency.
Click to expand...

I think we ARE a quarterback away from making great strides toward what Norv was trying to accomplish.

Shore up the OL and we may be in the running for a title if we can keep the core together.

But this isn't in our hands is it?
 
This thread has been copied to Flipper's Finest. :up: Any relevant posts (i.e. more of the same) will be added to it.
 
Mr. Murder I think in all your analysis you've gotten :topic:

This subject always seems to be a state of confusion for everyone that I discuss it with. I think the confusion starts in the name “West Coast Offenseâ€Â. A name that Bill Walsh said is another animal. He once requested it to be called the “Cincinatti offenseâ€Â.

From my understanding the “Walsh Offense†is total different concept than the Gillman-Coryell-Zampese-Turner-Martz run “West Coast†offense. It is my understanding that the present coordinators (Turner and Martz) rely on an attack that is heavily rooted in that Coryell system. They run between the tackles using mainly “man†blocking schemes then attack downfield based upon the linebackers being sucked in. In contrast the Walsh offense uses more zone blocking schemes and attacks the edges of the field until a defense gives up the middle to the run or downfield to the pass. This is a “dumbed down†assumption but I’m attempting to keep this short.

If you look around the NFL and survey the successful defenses since the advent of the Walsh system and the “copycat†spread offenses you find one dominant feature. That feature would be the 34 defense. The Superbowl teams of Pittsburgh and New England stand out but there are other defenses worth noting today such as New England, Philadelphia, and most recently Baltimore has made the switch. I think the Baltimore’s decision is related to Billick’s understanding of the Walsh offense or a similar spread system. Why else would he handcuff the best linebacker in the league?

It also seems to me that the 34 is a better system for the mediocrity that free agency has created in the league. The New England defense quietly ranks as good every year to defenses stack with the “marquee†names and I’m beginning to favor what Bellichek does versus a league dominated by spread offenses. It seems that he has taken a variation of the 46 defense and uses Mike Vrabel as that defensive end in the 46 scheme that has to be able to play pass coverage.

I could ramble on here but I think you get the picture that I’m attempting to display. The “Walsh offense†or similar spread offenses are all over this league and it’s allowing “the mediocre†to make plays. The 34 looks like the defense that is having the most success with all the transition of free agency and combating these “Walsh†type offenses.

The main reason for all my confoundment is that I’m a Dolphin fan and I no longer believe in what Dave Wannestadt is attempting to sell. I don’t believe Turner will ever have the success he had with that offense unless he acquires stars such as (Fouts, Joiner, and Winslow or Aikman, Novachek, and Irvin). The “throwback†offense of Chan Gailey had more success than Turners. I am also beginning to believe that the “manââ¬Â 4-3 that Wannestadt runs is a dinosaur in this league. That defense took 33 million worth of cap this year to run and it was still defeated by the spread offenses of Indianapolis, New England (x2), Philadelphia, Tennessee, and Houston.
 
Our defense was defeated by Philly, Washington and Tennessee....that's it.

We run the 4-3 flex with a cover 2 shell.

Teams that run that defense:

Cowboys
Broncos
Dolphins
49ers
Saints
Panthers
Buccanears
Browns
Bills
Packers
Lions
Bears
Cardinals

I would say that it is the defense Du Jour.
 
I'm not about to attempt that I know anything here but, I don't see any Super Bowl contending teams on that list with the possible exception of denver being a sleeper.

Maybe du jour is a day late.
 
I looked at that list and really didn't want to address it as it is a whole new topic in and of itself but........

The trends of the various teams on that list vary greatly. There is alot you can do out of the 43 defense and those teams do nothing alike.

I will say this though...

This thread could be enhanced by a "total point" based study with the 43 vs. spread offense and the 34 vs. spread offense as the focal point.

To do that would take a little more than blanket type statements such as the one section126 just made though.
 
Those defenses I posted for the most part, rank very high.

As far as scheme, the 4-3 flex was a fad defense brought to the NFL by one Jimmy Johnson....it's origins are with Tom landry, and it is a defense that has been tweaked over the years and is now the staple for the teams I posted. It is a simple defense.

ZOD is making it sound too complicated. Defense has two play bridges. The West Coast offense for example has as little as 4 and as many as 7 play bridges. Defense is simple.

The 4-3 flex is a defense designed to allow free flow from the linebackers in base. The defense does not use pursuit angles as a requirement because it attacks the gaps on the offense on every play. The defense requires very athletic linebackers because they are needed to "Beat" the backs to the 0,1,2,3,4,5 holes. The DT's are supposed to use "set" technique as the Ends are more free. The DL for lack of a better word is required to "force" double teams or to achieve "push" but never a stale mate. When the "flex" moves to nickel, or Dime things change drastically. EVERY SINGLE TEAM in the NFL runs the exact same coverages......some call one more than the other.....The Bucs Super Bowl team called two specific coverages almost the whole game: soft shell man under and 2 deep quarters. In the super bowl, they created ALOT OF CONFUSION when they would switch at the snap to a 3 deep shell and run up the SS to take away the "slant" throwing lanes....Brilliant. So what had started as a 4-3 cover 2 shell, then became the old "gator" 4-4-3......Too many bodies in the short throwing lanes. The raiders could not handle it.

When people say that our defense is vanilla......they are right.....it was never more "vanilla" than it was in 2000......look up their ranking.

This season they have experimented with alot of stuff that quite frankly they ripped off from Monte Kiffin's super bowl game plan......

Defense is simple.....don't make it complicated. cuz when we start talking "D" I'm an expert.
 
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I personally think that the problem with the west coast offense right now is that the defenders are too fast now days. I think you can sprinkle the WC in but you can't marry yourself to it. However, I am not doing the research you are. It is a good article and an interesting thread.
 
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