Trainer O'neill fires back at Dolphins

[Bumpus]

Who the **** is Kevin O’Neill, and why should any of us care?

 

[finsfanjay13]

I already understand the role of a trainer, but I think you need to spell it out for yourself.

You said the font office shouldn't be asking the trainer for a medical opinion in post #12, and then you admitted that trainers do have medical input in post #27. Seems like you are not sure which side of the fence to **** on.

If you understood the role of an athletic trainer, then you would have understood my point. Since you apparently do not understand my point, I can only deduce that you either 1.) do not understand the role of a trainer or 2.) just like to incessantly argue. Maybe you're the one struggling with where to sh*t.

Regardless, I think I'm done here. We can just agree to disagree.

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

Who the **** is Kevin O’Neill, and why should any of us care?

He used to be the head coach for USC basketball:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_O'Neill_(basketball)

 

[Sons Of Shula]

If you understood the role of an athletic trainer, then you would have understood my point. Since you apparently do not understand my point, I can only deduce that you either 1.) do not understand the role of a trainer or 2.) just like to incessantly argue. Maybe you're the one struggling with where to sh*t.

Regardless, I think I'm done here. We can just agree to disagree.

Care to explain your version of an AT's role to the rest of us?

 

[Zounds]

If you understood the role of an athletic trainer, then you would have understood my point. Since you apparently do not understand my point, I can only deduce that you either 1.) do not understand the role of a trainer or 2.) just like to incessantly argue. Maybe you're the one struggling with where to sh*t.

Regardless, I think I'm done here. We can just agree to disagree.

After you contradicted yourself, I asked you to clarify what you were saying. You refused. That's on you, not me.

 

[JTC111]

O'Neill wants to hide behind HIPPA but he's applying it with much too broad a brush if he thinks it gave him the cover to simply refuse to answer all questions asked during an investigation that his boss, the guy who signs his checks, ordered. He doesn't have a case but it isn't difficult to get some lawyer to take up the cause hoping a team would rather make some settlement than get bogged down in a civil trial.

 

[finsfanjay13]

After you contradicted yourself, I asked you to clarify what you were saying. You refused. That's on you, not me.

Actually, you didn't ask me to clarify what I was saying. I will, though:

Pretty simple: If Kevin O'Neill was the final say on signing Drew Brees or trading for Daunte Culpepper from a medical standpoint, then that is a failure with the organizational structure.

Here's a decent article on how a NFL organization traditionally operates regarding medical evaluations: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sportsdoc/NFL-Draft-a-team-doctors-role.html

A contextual quote:

During this process, free agency is proceeding. The team notifies me a day before the player is scheduled to visit. The 24 hours prior to that visit we scramble to gather as much information as possible. Every NFL player signs a release to allow transfer of all medical data. Based on this information, we schedule diagnostic testing so that it will be available for my review when I examine the player. The visiting free agent is on a tight, rigid schedule with tours of the city and meetings with coaches. Just like the Combine, the player goes through a medical and orthopaedic exam. After reviewing all the data, I then call the GM and give him my recommendation whether the player is medically cleared or there is too much risk in signing this particular player. Conditions such as a significantly degenerative joint(s), multiple failed surgeries and unstable joints are red flags that this athlete may be too great a risk to invest a lot of money for him to play.

That is done *by the physician*, not *the athletic trainer* (two different roles). Straight from a NFL team physician's mouth. And that was my point: If Miami is doing it differently (especially in Drew Brees' case), then whomever decided that was a good structure should be fired, and not Kevin O'Neill. As the team physician is the one most qualified to provide that assessment and *not the athletic trainer*.

And just so you don't continue playing "the semantics game": In #12 (as you've already cited), when I said O'Neill wasn't qualified to do so, I meant *over the team physician*. I thought that was rather obvious, without having to explicitly state it.

And yes, I lied; I guess I wasn't done quite yet. Slow day at the office...

 

[Zounds]

Actually, you didn't ask me to clarify what I was saying.

What exactly did you think I meant when I said by this:

Then what exactly are you saying?

And regarding the article you linked and quoted....it is what a physician does during combine examinations, and as you said yourself, that doesn't apply:

What does that have to do with *current NFL football players*? Pretty sure Drew Brees didn't work out at the combine when Miami was evaluating him, nor Daunte Culpepper.

 

[spiketex]

O'Neill wants to hide behind HIPPA but he's applying it with much too broad a brush if he thinks it gave him the cover to simply refuse to answer all questions asked during an investigation that his boss, the guy who signs his checks, ordered. He doesn't have a case but it isn't difficult to get some lawyer to take up the cause hoping a team would rather make some settlement than get bogged down in a civil trial.

I think that Kevin O'Neill showed poor judgement by not cooperating with the Wells investigation. It was his right to take a very strict HIPPA interpretation as the cover and refuse to answer all questions, but ultimately he should have known that there would be consequences. After the NFL engaged Wells, it was always going to be a big deal and it wasn't just going to disappear. O'Neill should have had an attorney with him and attempted to be more cooperative. It is unfortunate that his stellar career was halted by this issue, but he lives with the consequences. He could have asked the Jeff Ireland, Dawn Aponte and Joe Philbin about his predicament and sought their advice, but it appears that he preferred to be difficult and uncooperative.
He may have a legal case to pursue a big payout but it will probably be painful. All he had to do was answer honestly and show some respect.
I would not be surprised if Goodell leaned on Stephen Ross to axe O'Neill. The NFL Commissioner made the decision to address the allegations seriously by appointing Wells to do the investigation.

 

[finsfanjay13]

What exactly did you think I meant when I said by this:

Another miss, obviously.

And regarding the article you linked and quoted....it is what a physician does during combine examinations, and as you said yourself, that doesn't apply:

Uhm, did you not read the quote I provided you?

Here, I'll quote it again to save you time (and even bold the important things):

During this process, free agency is proceeding. The team notifies me a day before the player is scheduled to visit. The 24 hours prior to that visit we scramble to gather as much information as possible. Every NFL player signs a release to allow transfer of all medical data. Based on this information, we schedule diagnostic testing so that it will be available for my review when I examine the player. The visiting free agent is on a tight, rigid schedule with tours of the city and meetings with coaches. Just like the Combine, the player goes through a medical and orthopaedic exam. After reviewing all the data, I then call the GM and give him my recommendation whether the player is medically cleared or there is too much risk in signing this particular player. Conditions such as a significantly degenerative joint(s), multiple failed surgeries and unstable joints are red flags that this athlete may be too great a risk to invest a lot of money for him to play.

You're welcome.

 

[Zounds]

You're welcome.

Yes, thanks for the entertainment.

Do you even realize you said combine examinations don't count, and then you are trying to cite a combine examination as an example? And that we are talking about the head trainer here, and not the head physician? And that you said trainers don't give medical input, and then you admitted that they do have medical input?

I really don't know how to respond to moving targets, but to assume that the head trainer has nothing to do with the health and medical evaluations of players - current and potential players - is just naive.

 

[finsfanjay13]

Yes, thanks for the entertainment.

Do you even realize you said combine examinations don't count, and then you are trying to cite a combine examination as an example? And that we are talking about the head trainer here, and not the head physician? And that you said trainers don't give medical input, and then you admitted that they do have medical input?

I really don't know how to respond to moving targets, but to assume that the head trainer has nothing to do with the health and medical evaluations of players - current and potential players - is just naive.

Uhm, what?

Please provide proof of me saying that "combine examinations don't count" and that "the head trainer has nothing to do with the health and medical evaluations of players". Also, please show me in that article where it's only talking about examinations done at the combine, and mentions nothing about free agency evaluations. Furthermore, please show where I specifically said that they do not give medical input, contextually.

When you can do those things, I will then respond to you. Otherwise, you have just proven that you suck at comprehension.

Thank *you* for the entertainment.

 

[Zounds]

please provide proof of me saying that "combine examinations don't count" and that "the head trainer has nothing to do with the health and medical evaluations of players". Also, please show me in that article where it's only talking about examinations done at the combine, and mentions nothing about free agency evaluations. Furthermore, please show where i specifically said that they do not give medical input, contextually.

ok...

Here's where you said a front office shouldn't be getting a medial evalutaion from a trainer:

O'Neill is an athletic trainer, not a physician. If the front office was asking him to provide a medical opinion, then *they* should have been fired, as he is not qualified to do so.

And here is where you said combine examinations don't apply to current players:

What does that have to do with *current NFL football players*? Pretty sure Drew Brees didn't work out at the combine when Miami was evaluating him, nor Daunte Culpepper.

Next time, look up your own dam quotes. You wrote them, and I shouldnt have to explain them to you.

 

[finsfanjay13]

ok...

Here's where you said a front office shouldn't be getting a medial evalutaion from a trainer:

Exhibit A that you suck at comprehension and also chose to ignore my other posts. I will reiterate, as I already did before: If they relied on his opinion as the *final word*, then they should be fired. I even qualified that for you, and you *still chose to ignore it*.

And here is where you said combine examinations don't apply to current players:

Well, it is true that combine examinations don't apply to current players. Because they aren't examined at the combine when they are a current NFL player. They are examined at a team's facility. See, I can play the semantics game too!

Next time, look up your own dam quotes. You wrote them, and I shouldnt have to explain them to you.

Congratulations, you failed. You also couldn't even provide me the further information I requested. Furthermore, you didn't explain a damn thing. Just showed that you are ignorant to the concept of "context".

I think we're done here. It's sad that the taxes I'm currently doing are more enjoyable than this discussion.

 

[phinking]

If O'Neil was in charge when the Dolphins made the decision to give the medical green light to sign Dante Culpepper and the medical red light to pass on Drew Brees, if it was him that said Dion Jordan's shoulder shouldn't be an issue and Jamar Taylor's surgery should be all healed up by training camp, if it was O'Neil that gave the go ahead on any of these things the guy should have been fired regardless of bullygate. Just my opinion.

And there was also the Lance Louis signing. We were all told by the organization that his knee would have been fine by training camp. It wasn't and he still can't find a roster spot.

 

[JTC111]

I think that Kevin O'Neill showed poor judgement by not cooperating with the Wells investigation. It was his right to take a very strict HIPPA interpretation as the cover and refuse to answer all questions, but ultimately he should have known that there would be consequences.

Exactly. He absolutely has the right to do it. However, he didn't have to right to keep his job after he did it.

After the NFL engaged Wells, it was always going to be a big deal and it wasn't just going to disappear. O'Neill should have had an attorney with him and attempted to be more cooperative. It is unfortunate that his stellar career was halted by this issue, but he lives with the consequences. He could have asked the Jeff Ireland, Dawn Aponte and Joe Philbin about his predicament and sought their advice, but it appears that he preferred to be difficult and uncooperative.

I have little doubt that if he'd have called the front office, explained HIPPA concerns, and asked for an attorney to be present to advise him as to what he could answer without violating confidentiality, they'd have provided that for him. Because he didn't, it makes his story very suspect in my eyes. It feels more like he didn't want to participate for whatever personal reasons he had, and then came up with the HIPPA excuse after the fact.

He may have a legal case to pursue a big payout but it will probably be painful. All he had to do was answer honestly and show some respect.

A legal case would have to be based upon some kind of injurious action. I don't see one here. They gave the guy two years pay walking away. How was he injured?

I would not be surprised if Goodell leaned on Stephen Ross to axe O'Neill. The NFL Commissioner made the decision to address the allegations seriously by appointing Wells to do the investigation.

Ross had more than enough cause to fire O'Neill just on the basis of his lack of cooperation with the investigation. There's no real downside to firing O'Neill for either the Fins or the League (had Goodell wanted to push him out). If the league wanted to take action, they could have suspended him. As it is, he walks away from Miami with two years pay in his pocket and can apply for a new job with any other team in this league or any other pro sports league. From a financial pov, it looks to me like he made out very well.