What ever happened to the HC buying the groceries?

[Digital]

I'm not sure what you mean. GM's acquiring the players is the traditional way. When the Dolphins began we had a guy named Danny Thomas who built the undefeated 1972 team. No, not THAT Danny Thomas the celebrity partial owner of the Miami Dolphins, I mean the guy who traded for Paul Warfield, plucked Manny Fernandez out of Utah, and drafted Larry Csonka from Syracuse. He was one great GM. Later we had other good GM'S such as Bobby Beathard. There is a long NFL and Dolphin tradition of GM's buying the groceries.

It was more recent that the famous Parcells quote came out and coaches wanted to buck that system. I just can't recall too many coaches with that kind of power being successful. They spend so much time working on their team and their opponents that they couldn't possibly have enough time to be good at projecting collegiate talent to a pro environment. That's when you get things like Sabana choosing Jason Allen in the first round usually.

Personally, I want a person picking the groceries who puts all of his time into that. Let the coach be a coach and hire a capologist/negotiator for attorney type contracts work. I want a guy with a great track record as a scout who knows how to evaluate talent and is a good leader. Better players and better coaches is what makes teams great. So, I'm all for letting each be a specialist at their roles.

 

[scodoublet]

Also, division of labor should theoretically yield better results. A GM should be scouting talent year round while the HC spends a large portion of the year game planning. Overall it should be mutual agreement whenever possible though.

Yes, division of labor will yield better results, given HC & GM are on the same page and have a working relationship.
Hence the reason Ireland is not longer here.

 

[BlueFin]

Philbin said Jonathan Martin wasn't good enough to play LT. Ireland said he was good enough. Ireland was fired. A HC knows what he needs to succeed, and probably more than the GM does. That's all I got for this thread.

There are two problems with your example, one Jeff Ireland IS NOT a good evaluator of talent, and two , while Philbin didn't like Martin, most talent evaluators though Martin was too soft for the NFL....which is why despite his talent he slipped so far in the draft, Philbin was no genius nor was this an extraordinary evaluation.

It just points out why Jeff Ireland should have been goon with Parcells years ago.

 

[BlueFin]

I'm not sure what you mean. GM's acquiring the players is the traditional way. When the Dolphins began we had a guy named Danny Thomas who built the undefeated 1972 team. No, not THAT Danny Thomas the celebrity partial owner of the Miami Dolphins, I mean the guy who traded for Paul Warfield, plucked Manny Fernandez out of Utah, and drafted Larry Csonka from Syracuse. He was one great GM. Later we had other good GM'S such as Bobby Beathard. There is a long NFL and Dolphin tradition of GM's buying the groceries.

It was more recent that the famous Parcells quote came out and coaches wanted to buck that system. I just can't recall too many coaches with that kind of power being successful. They spend so much time working on their team and their opponents that they couldn't possibly have enough time to be good at projecting collegiate talent to a pro environment. That's when you get things like Sabana choosing Jason Allen in the first round usually.

Personally, I want a person picking the groceries who puts all of his time into that. Let the coach be a coach and hire a capologist/negotiator for attorney type contracts work. I want a guy with a great track record as a scout who knows how to evaluate talent and is a good leader. Better players and better coaches is what makes teams great. So, I'm all for letting each be a specialist at their roles.

That was Joe Thomas bro, as I stated in my previous post.

 

[roy_miami]

The key is that the GM and coach need to be on the same page talent wise. Whoever the new GM needs to at least have an understanding of what type of player Philbin and his staff want. Based on everything I've seen, Ireland and Philbin had a real disconnect there even without their mutual dislike for each other.

Yup.

Philbin basically said: Martin sucks, I don't care if benching him makes you/us look bad, he just sucks.
And Ireland said: No, you're wrong, Martin is a decent enough cornfed.

And I'm sure knowing he'd get murdered by the fans for trading a second round pick for a cornfed after he just drafted one in the second round influenced his decision. That and I also think he wanted more praise this offseason for having us in such great cap space. In the end Ireland was making decisions based on getting him back in the good graces with the fans.

 

[Digital]

That was Joe Thomas bro, as I stated in my previous post.

Thanks man. For some reason I thought they were both Dannys.

I was typing my post with my phone on a train between stops and never saw your post just before mine until now. Great minds ... even if I couldn't remember the exact names, heh.

 

[phins_4_ever]

Usually it is a committee approach between GM and HC. One has to have final say which normally is the GM.
The player has to fit the system and has to be a 'need player' not just a fancy name or because the GM thinks that player would be cool.

In the NFL usually the GM has final say. I can think only of a handful of HCs who might have final say. Bellichek is one, Kelly is the other - just of the top of my head.

But no matter who has final say the GM/HC/Business Side will always have to work as a team. The GM is responsible to find the best player fitting a team's system and philosophy and is a position we need. That would come from the HC. And the business side will tell the GM if it is financially possible.

There is no one-governs-everything.

Our disconnect was easy to look through: Ireland did not like Philbin so he trash talked him and was trying to get Aponte fired. He got caught in the cross fire and since he had no results to offer and was no team player he had to go. Anything else is just garbage.

On the other hand Philbin was also caught in the middle of garbage from two sides. He was a powerless HC. Half of that was his fault. For one I believe that Ireland picked his players and not what Philbin wanted or needed (see Dion). The part which resides with Philbin is his pick of a an OC. While as a rookie HC you can easily pick a former HC as a coordinator (happens all the time) it is almost poison to pick your former mentor and former boss as a coordinator.

I was very unhappy with Philbin throughout the season but the more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that he was in a no-win situation. Maybe that's why just Sherman and Ireland are gone. They cut out the two poison pills.

The new GM and Philbin will have a clean slate for next year. Let's see what they can do with that.

 

[Shouright]

Sticking with the analogy, how about the head coach and the GM huddle real close, figure out how they want the food to taste, and then send the GM off to get the best ingredients, so the head coach can spend all his time doing the cooking.

And then we can call in Jeff Ireland to do the dishes.

 

[HoneyB]

I'm not sure what you mean. GM's acquiring the players is the traditional way. When the Dolphins began we had a guy named Danny Thomas who built the undefeated 1972 team. No, not THAT Danny Thomas the celebrity partial owner of the Miami Dolphins, I mean the guy who traded for Paul Warfield, plucked Manny Fernandez out of Utah, and drafted Larry Csonka from Syracuse. He was one great GM. Later we had other good GM'S such as Bobby Beathard. There is a long NFL and Dolphin tradition of GM's buying the groceries.

It was more recent that the famous Parcells quote came out and coaches wanted to buck that system. I just can't recall too many coaches with that kind of power being successful. They spend so much time working on their team and their opponents that they couldn't possibly have enough time to be good at projecting collegiate talent to a pro environment. That's when you get things like Sabana choosing Jason Allen in the first round usually.

Shula actually was coach, vp and part owner, so he had a heavy hand in Dolphins operations. But yes, I agree we had a good gm who found Warfield and Csonka. After Thomas left, there were still great drafts.

I also believe that how you use the talent and who you keep on your team matters just as much as who you bring in. If you can't retain the talent, or recognize who needs to be cut, it's pointless. For example, Don Shula wouldn't have put up with Chad Henne for 4 years, he would have drafted another quarterback. When Peyton Manning was rumored to come here, Shula said Manning was worth it at any price. Winners want to win. Others are satisfied with 8-8 seasons.

We need leadership. I'm hoping Philbin steps it up. And I'm hoping the vacancies are filled with competent people.

 

[TheWalrus]

It's difficult to get two or three people on the same page but I think it just comes down to the fact that the Earth is spinning too rapidly on it's axis to have it any other way.

 

[Shouright]

Sometimes you don't necessarily want two or three of the people in a triumvirate on the same page. There is the "football Czar" model of NFL front office leadership, and there is the "checks and balances" model this team may be moving toward here.

I'd rather have three bright minds who do their jobs well and who can flexibly agree and disagree based on their own expertise, each doing what's best for the organization from their own unique perspective (coaching, personnel, salary cap), than have three people engaged in groupthink heading the wrong direction together, or one "Czar" who's running the team into the ground.

The key of course are the relationships among the triumvirate, and whether they can function effectively in that manner. If so, the "checks and balances" model beats the "Czar" model anyday in my opinion, because it prevents any one person from running the organization into the ground.

So like I said above:

Sticking with the analogy, how about the head coach and the GM huddle real close, figure out how they want the food to taste, and then send the GM off to get the best ingredients, so the head coach can spend all his time doing the cooking.

You do that, you ask Dawn Aponte how much you can spend at the supermarket, and you're good to go.

 

[Fins_of_Fury]

The HC is an extremely labor intensive position. He rarely has time in his day to scout college ball players or pro personnel film unless in preparation for a match-up against them. You need an advanced scouting department working around the clock to have a shot at drafting quality players. I was never a fan of a HC with too much responsibility, aside from preparing his team for ultimate success on and off the field. That being said, a coach needs to impart upon the front office exactly what his vision is, and THEY need to bring home the right groceries.

 

[flynryan15]

Terrible analogy brought to us by a fat fraud stank ass tuna that happens to be the biggest smoke and mirrors thief quiter in Dolphins history!

 

[circumstances]

as was said before, the HC job should be full time, year round, and the GM job should be full time year round. I want my coach coaching, and I want my GM traveling around and eyeballing draft prospects and free agent prospects and canadian football league prospects and arena league prospects and semi-pro prospects, etc. (with the scouting department, of course).

 

[Phishpunk@WCU]

Maybe it's just habit, but I still think of a HC as a powerful football guy who picks his owns players. He and only he is responsible and the buck stops there. I guess that's less common now, but for the life of me I still can't figure out how you consolidate two football minds into one. Or, sometimes three or four.

We had the trifecta before, and it didn't seem to work and in the end nobody was accountable. They said they didn't draft any player they didn't all agree on. That's like going into a restaurant and ending up with chicken fingers and fries, because one guy doesn't like eat fish so the lobster is out of the question, and the other two guys are arguing over getting the porterhouse or the filet minon, so steak is ruled out too.

We got out of that mess and down to two people, Philbin and Ireland. They started out fine, loving each other, with Philbin heavily influencing the process of player acquisition. The results reflected that, as Ireland chose OT Martin described as a "finesse blocker" and a non-Parcells type player who was smart and athletic, and would fit the zbs. Similarly, Lamar Miller was not Ronnie Brown, his thing was speed. FA picks were geared toward same thing, speed. But eventually, the blame game started again. Ireland, we hear, was complaining about Philbin and Sherman's way of running the team, and on Philbins part, I do recall at least one occasion where Philbin waved his hand when asked about players and saying scouting is not his job, that's the GM's job. I thought that was odd at the time, but dismissed it. In retrospect, it seemed to be early indications of CYA happening on both ends.

So here we are again, two people hired separately (Philbin and the unknown GM), who are going to try to work together, and not blame each other when and if we start losing.

So we'll see. Hopefully this new GM will know how to 1) draft players, 2) retain good players already on the roster, and 3) be the kind of guy that FA players would want to deal with.

Really, all I want is one guy who is a mastermind at the game of football, and knows how to handle people around him, and everything else falls into place. Ireland was not that guy. Philbin in year 2 was not that guy, but he could be in year 3 and he'll be the identity of this team. Or, the new GM may be a wiz, and he'll assert himself in the organization to the point where he actually wins the ability to hire/fire the coach. I think Ross is waiting for someone to step up, and this season we'll see.

We hired Dave Wannestedt to do just that and we ended up with Jamar Fletcher, Eddie Moore, and AJ Feeley (trade) as draft picks. so it didn't work out so well.