Why so much divisiveness on pick #5? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Why so much divisiveness on pick #5?

OmegaPhinsFan

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Let me first start by saying Miami has done a very mediocre job in drafting, developing and keeping players. We all know the usual suspects that fall into this category. But for reference, Landry, Pouncey, James, Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake, etc..
The 800 lb gorilla in the room is that Miami will probably draft Tua at 5. No one will out-bid Miami, so I am not sure how much of a real attempt will be made on that. Luckily, the teams in front of Miami don't need a qb. However, if Miami fails at 5, their fortunes aren't lost for another 20 years. They still have 4 first round picks (and an Iran plane full of cash). To me, the justification is in the extra two picks this year. You traded a LT and DB that were going to be the cornerstones of your franchise in exchange for picks. You have to replace those players with immediate impact players, not Charles Harris-type projects. For a team that hasn't done well in the draft, pick 5 is not a make or break. However, between FA and the draft, Miami must fill back up their bare cupboards.
 
IMO the divisiveness over the 5th pick is fan created. All of these “what if” scenarios keep popping up because it is another season with our team being done without making the playoffs. My take is that Grier and Flores will do what they believe gives us the best chance to win. If that means Tua or Herbert at 5, so be it. If that means Thomas, Okudah, whoever at 5 and other year of Fitz/Rosen, so be it. If that means a trade back from 5 to pick up draft capital for next year, so be it. What will happen is going to happen regardless of how we feel as fans.
 
Let me first start by saying Miami has done a very mediocre job in drafting, developing and keeping players. We all know the usual suspects that fall into this category. But for reference, Landry, Pouncey, James, Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake, etc..
The 800 lb gorilla in the room is that Miami will probably draft Tua at 5. No one will out-bid Miami, so I am not sure how much of a real attempt will be made on that. Luckily, the teams in front of Miami don't need a qb. However, if Miami fails at 5, their fortunes aren't lost for another 20 years. They still have 4 first round picks (and an Iran plane full of cash). To me, the justification is in the extra two picks this year. You traded a LT and DB that were going to be the cornerstones of your franchise in exchange for picks. You have to replace those players with immediate impact players, not Charles Harris-type projects. For a team that hasn't done well in the draft, pick 5 is not a make or break. However, between FA and the draft, Miami must fill back up their bare cupboards.

There are far too many posts masqarading as predicting Miami's pick #5 when, in actuality, they are stating what THEY want at #5. The truth is, no one knows. It could be Tua, Simmons, Chase - who knows who will be available at #5. I don't think Miami will move up, but that's a guess.
Throw in the tired 'ol 'Miami always blows the drafts' or 'Grier makes the the picks' and it gets worse. A lot of new people in the FO. Will that change the result? Who knows, but predicting from the past while ignoring change is a lazy strategy.
Third is those stuck in absolutes. 'Pick Tua at #5' regardless of medical and 'I would NEVER take Tua, regardless of medical. Blind statements Brees decisiveness.
Every poster here wants to win. Every poster has an opinion how to do that. Disagreement is NOT enemy action
 
"IMO the divisiveness over the 5th pick is fan created."

There, somebody had to say it twice. Nobody doubts that Tua is the most talented QB. A lot of people doubt if his body can hold up.

You may be making a mistake if you think the team must replace Tunsil and Minkah with players of the same caliber. They may feel that there isn't a lot of difference between a good OT and a good safety than great or elite ones. On the other hand, they may feel there is a huge difference between a good WR, TE, or CB than great or elite ones. We simply don't know which positions they place a premium on.

The only team with a "franchise QB" that advanced in the playoffs this year was the Chiefs. In the end I wouldn't be surprised if the 49'ers won though.

IMHO it just goes to show you need a balanced team with a good offense and a good defense. You also need to be able to run the ball no matter how potent your passing attack is. Right now I'm thinking it is much wiser for the Dolphins to have two good players rather than one "difference maker" at most positions.
 
We need a different maker at 5.. I dont want no hurt players neither at 5 ,18 or 27 maybe 39. I dont care if he is gone..kc have not been to SB in 50 year. It our turn get back in games. Let go Grier..
 
I think a whole lot of players can make a difference so I don't know what y'all mean by "difference maker".

I think guards like Ben Bredeson and Logan Stenberg would make a heck of a "difference" on our line. I could see them available in the 3rd-4th round range.

When I think of difference "makers" I think of guys like Travis Kelce and Derrick Henry.

I remember talking up George Kittle but nobody was interested.

My point is "difference makers" don't have to be high picks. They don't have to play the premiere positions. They do have to be unstoppable nightmare match ups:)

Curious to see what happens with Cheyenne O’Grady but I think it is a weak TE class. I'd take Shenault high, as high as our 1C pick.
 
I think a big part of the problem has been player development. It's one thing to draft talent and another to actually get those players to play to the best of their ability. Perhaps now, the right coach is finally in place. There were a lot of positives in that regard in the 5-11 season.

Another point. The Dolphins have a lot of money to spend in free agency. So it's the draft haul, plus free agency. The team will hit and miss, but they have a great opportunity right now to get this thing moving in the right direction.
 
Keep in mind that I'm the only poster here who is NOT and expert.........so many geniuses in here is the reason why we can't agree on who to draft or should be stay at 5 or move up or down. Some people think their opinion is the only one that matters.
 
Let me first start by saying Miami has done a very mediocre job in drafting, developing and keeping players. We all know the usual suspects that fall into this category. But for reference, Landry, Pouncey, James, Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake, etc..
The 800 lb gorilla in the room is that Miami will probably draft Tua at 5. No one will out-bid Miami, so I am not sure how much of a real attempt will be made on that. Luckily, the teams in front of Miami don't need a qb. However, if Miami fails at 5, their fortunes aren't lost for another 20 years. They still have 4 first round picks (and an Iran plane full of cash). To me, the justification is in the extra two picks this year. You traded a LT and DB that were going to be the cornerstones of your franchise in exchange for picks. You have to replace those players with immediate impact players, not Charles Harris-type projects. For a team that hasn't done well in the draft, pick 5 is not a make or break. However, between FA and the draft, Miami must fill back up their bare cupboards.
Divisiveness on a MD fan board? Lol
 
If he is on schedule medically, Tua will not be there at 5. Some team will trade up to get him. QBs always get overvalued
 
If he is on schedule medically, Tua will not be there at 5. Some team will trade up to get him. QBs always get overvalued
There's 0% chance a team could out trade the fins if that's who they want. The call would go to Miami saying we've been offered this, what's your counter and if they want him they beat it. No other team has the firepower Miami has.

It's just a matter of if they use it.
 
If he is on schedule medically, Tua will not be there at 5. Some team will trade up to get him. QBs always get overvalued

Yep. I don't think the Tua at #5 or not question will matter. If he's recovering on schedule, he'll go top 3. I've had the same surgery, and expect Tua will look good jogging around and doing passing drills in April before the draft.

If Tua has issues with his recovery, he'll drop way lower than 5 and we'll pick someone else. Tua's situation will just push up the draft stock of the second tier of QBs.
 
Let me first start by saying Miami has done a very mediocre job in drafting, developing and keeping players. We all know the usual suspects that fall into this category. But for reference, Landry, Pouncey, James, Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake, etc..

The 800 lb gorilla in the room is that Miami will probably draft Tua at 5.

...You traded a LT and DB that were going to be the cornerstones of your franchise in exchange for picks.

"The 800 lb gorilla in the room is that Miami will probably draft Tua at 5."

Fans (and the media) need to air their opinions; none of which are actually based on official info straight from the team's decision makers. Many fans and the media said that Miami was tanking to attain the top pick in this upcoming draft. Who came up with this idea? NO ONE related to the Dolphins EVER mentioned tanking! Ross did say that the way they were doing things wasn't working, so they needed to pretty much tear it down and rebuild the team the "right" way, and that it could/would probably mean that there will be a few losses along the way while they rebuild. How could anyone hear this and then say it's proof that the team is tanking? The media is the problem... they need to get people to read their articles to keep their job, so they make up "facts" to attract attention. There was never a plan to "Tank For Tua"... it was all the doing of the media. I don't recall ever seeing an official news release from the Dolphins saying that they 100% wanted to draft Tua. Did you? Why do so many fans believe that Miami wants Tua? It's possible, or maybe even probable that they were thinking about drafting him, but it's not a certainty; especially now after his injuries and surgery.

"... Miami has done a very mediocre job in drafting, developing and keeping players. You traded a LT and DB that were going to be the cornerstones of your franchise in exchange for picks."

True, but that's because the past two regimes (Philbin and Gase) and Tannenbaum were idiots who should NEVER have been hired by the Dolphins. Those two coaching staffs were terrible at developing young players, and their schemes did little to take advantage of their players' strengths and put them in a position to succeed. As for keeping players, it's not always the smart thing to do. Many fans wanted to keep RT James, even though he was often injured and was going to want a pay increase. His play never lived up to his draft status, and he was in no way, shape, or form worth the amount of money that he eventually received (from another team). Good riddance. Fitzpatrick's trade is debatable, and both sides of the argument have merit. Tunsil's trade, IMO, was a HUGE success for Miami. They're rebuilding from the ground up, and those draft picks will be a big help.

So many fans disagree with me when it comes to Tunsil; they think hes "all that", and I think he's not worth paying, or keeping. I'll explain my position: Under Philbin, Miami's offensive philosophy was to create mismatches at the line and then to throw a short pass almost immediately after the snap to the best target, with the hope that the receiver will gains yards after the catch. And, these short passes will basically take the place of the run. So, since Philbin's "dynamic, explosive, and high-scoring" (his words) offense was based on a quick short pass, Philbin had no need for tough, physical, old-school style o-linemen who could sustain their blocks. And, since these short passes replaced the running game, there was little to no emphasis placed on the ability to run-block. This is evident in his favoring someone like Jonathan Martin over a physical player like Incognito. However, the result of this philosophy resulted in Tannehill being sacked more than any other QB during his first 4 seasons. Also, the o-line's poor run-blocking led to an inability to consistently convert 3rd or 4th and short on the ground, and they were considered to be one of the worst o-lines in the league. (For the sake of comparison, Sparano's o-line with FB Polite was nearly perfect in converting 3rd or 4th and short!) Next came Gase, who was better at calling trick plays than normal, everyday football plays. It seems to me that the plays he called were ones that would have the least chance of success; he'd run up the middle for no gain on 3rd and long, and he'd call a pass behind the line of scrimmage for a loss on 3rd or 4th and short. When they did attempt to run on 3rd or 4th and short, they usually failed because, like Philbin, Gase had no desire to build a tough, physical o-line that could dominate the line of scrimmage, or to have a powerful running game. He preferred using the RBs as receivers out of the backfield. So, why did I just ramble on about all of this? Because Flores, when hired, said that he wants a tough, physical football team with a strong running game. There was NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING about Miami's o-line or running game under Philbin and Gase that could even remotely be described as being tough or physicallly dominating. Was their o-line dominating with a strong running game, while first round draft picks Tunsil and James were the anchors? Nope! They had a problem pass-blocking let alone being able to run-block. Tunsil was selected because he was seen as a "top talent" who would fit into Miami's short pass based offense. But, he doesn't fit Flores' need for tough, physical players. Tunsil gave up few sacks because the other 4 guys were even worse than him; he was the best of the worst.

And, finally, I LOVE talking about Landry. Loved by millions of fans. I have no idea why! I admit he was talented. But, he was also a "me-first" immature diva who couldn't control his emotions and was overall a detriment to the (future) success of the team. Why a me-first diva? It's a well-known fact that he's best friends with Odell Beckham Jr, and is very competitive. They both crave attention and the spotlight. Ever notice that when ODB made a one-handed catch in an early game, odds were that Landry playing later would also make a one-handed catch. He wants to be seen on the highlights; he didn't care that if he dropped that pass it could possibly hurt his team's chances of winning. The "team-first" decision would be to make that catch with both hands; not to show off for attention! And, how many times did he make bone-headed mistakes and get penalized? Too many times! He enjoyed taunting defenders (and was often called for it) because of his need to show his superiority (diva). Last, but not least, he set a record for the most catches made by a WR over his first 4 seasons. Sounds good, doesn't it? Sounds like Miami ran the offense through Landry, right? His record for the most receptions should have been accompanied by the record for the most yards too, right? Or at least close to a record? Nope. Landry was the main check-down target in a short pass based offense in which the QB rarely had time to wait for a WR to get open downfield. Running the offense through Landry via short passes created a lot of first downs, but overall, without a potent vertical passing game, competent o-line, or strong running game, Miami's offense was mostly ineffective. Landry was a good slot receiver who could move the chains, but there was too much baggage with his ego and he was definitely not worth the money he wanted in Free Agency. I liked watching Wilson (keep at a reduced salary for next year) and Hurns this past season more than I ever liked watching Landry's immature antics.
 
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Divisiveness is not necessary a problem.
Yes we traded a promising LT and DB that were potential strengths of this team.
If used right the strengths could simply change to a franchise QB and a different OL or pass rusher.
The real success of the draft will be if we can add more strengths across the board of this team.
 
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