Absolutely, there are so many things not available in a box score but unfortunately we don't have access to all that info. We don't know if a QB throws an INT if he made the wrong read or the WR made the wrong read but in most cases the QB gets blamed.[/quote]
How about you watch the games at least before spouting off - because Wake dominates... Who cares what people say he is or isn't just freakin watch...
Now he dominates:crazy: I assume he'll be 1st team all-pro?
So playing poor enough to almost singlehandedly take your team out of the game in 1 out of every 4 games is not significant? Also, I never said that he was a bad QB. I said he was very inconsistent.
In your last paragraph you even highlight the importance of consistency when referring to Wake's performances. You don't even realize that you are critisizing our backup DE/LB for his lack of consistency while excusing Sanchez's. And Sanchez doesn't have the excuse of recieving irregular playing time. Anyway, I just think it's funny that you tell everyone to completely disregard Sanchez's poor performances while simultaneously telling everyone to "stop being homers for just one minute."
As for the Brady/Manning debate, my issue was not who is better, but rather how you made your argument. I actually agree that Brady has played better in the playoffs. But how does that have anything to do with why we should ignore regular season stats when determining who had the better defense. Did they use different defenses in the playoffs or something?
I don't claim to be impartial, but I try to base my opinions on the evidence I am given. If you choose to selectively highlight statistics based on which ones correlate with your opinions, then your arguments will be just like your QB's arm this season (inconsistent).
He's a ROOKIE, anyone who expected everything to go perfect was kidding themselves. He has played well enough to win 9 of his 12 starts, any fan would take that and run w/ a rookie.
I am not criticizing Wake, I am saying you guys overrate your players all the time and annoint them too quickly. All I am saying is be careful.
Is it Sanchez's fault he was good enought o start as a rookie while it took Wake 5-6 years to get on an NFL field?
Both manning and Brady have been great in the reg season, I seprrate them by their play in the most meaningful games in January- what is wrong w/ that? if it was just about the reg season I give Manning the edge but I weigh postseason more heavily and therefore I put Brady ahead of him- what is wrong w/ that line of thinking?
What does the performance of defenses in the reg season have to do w/ anything? So Manning is great enough to win 79 % of his games w/ a "bad defense" in the reg season then when the D plays much better in postseason he's only able to win 47% of his games and that is the fault of the D?
I am not selective, certain #s are more important than others. I think playing great when it matters most means more than facing Houston in october.
Both are HOF QBs, both had SB caliber talent around them, one elevated his team in January another held his team back.
I actually know why nyjunc post so much over here than on theganggreen. I managed to lurk over there the other day and there are two threads alone where nyjunc gets owned more times than a Tijuana hooker. I guess he doesnt like losing arguements on his own board so he tags along on a Miami Dolphins message board haha.
http://forums.theganggreen.com/showthread.php?t=51360
http://forums.theganggreen.com/showthread.php?t=49987
Please show specific examples of being "owned".
youll never be able to get these 2 jets fans to accept bad games by their players or good games by ours. they always like to "SKEW" the numbers. examples : well if you take away these 22 tds then he is having a bad season or if he didnt throw 83 ints then he would be in the pro bowl.its like talking to a brick wall, they will never admit they are wrong.
yeah b/c I never criticize the jets or praise the dolphins:rolleyes2: I guess that's why I predicted Miami to be better than the jets this year and why I think RIGHT NOW the Dolphins are the best team in the division.
right, you didn't give an opinion straight forward, but picking out two games specifically and belittling them speaks pretty loudly to me.
listen, i don't disagree. we have to wait a bit to decide what Wake will amount to, but bashing him simply by looking at stat-lines is pretty stupid. Jared Allen got 9.5 of his 12.5 sacks in 3 games!! what does that say about him?
I'm not belittling them I'm stating facts. There are a bunch of folks using his sack #s to back up their claims and I simply pointed out that he got 3 sacks in a blowout over Buf and last week had a meaningless sack on the last play of the game.
AGAIN, that doesn't mean he hasn't done a good job but don't use the sack #s to back that up. AGAIN, I believe you guys that he's been getting pressure on the QB. I think pressures are as important, if not more, than sacking the QB.
I'm not sure what you guys are criticizing?
So let me get this straight, the Jets have are #1 in total defense and scoring defense, have the most rushing yards per game in the NFL and are averaging the 4th best YPC of any team in the NFL. The Jets also have a good receiving core. The Titans went 13-3 last year with Kerry f-cking Collins, if Mark Sanchez has been decent, why are the Jets 7-6 with an elite defense and running game? By comparison, the Dolphins are 19th in total defense, 24th in scoring defense, 3rd in rushing offense (rushing yards per game), and 9th in ypc (.1 ypc fewer than the Jets). Despite a having a below average defense behind him, Henne is 7-3 as a starter.
Another example of someone who has not watched the Jets. If it was all about the play at QB we'd be 10-3 right now. Our D, as great as they have been, has blown 2 games and our STs blew a 3rd.
That below average defense was why you won your last 2 games but keep hiding behind #s.
This debate will be over sometime next year when Sanchez is yanked as the starter for his pathetic play, and Henne is having another impactful year but this time even more impressive when you take into consideration Miami is definitely going to upgrade the WR and probably the TE positions.
By the way, Sanchez has had about 2 maybe 3 games that you could consider "Good games" for a rookie starting QB. Lets not pretend like he's had more good games than bad and that he only had a couple bad games, because you absolutely have that backwards.
Henne is way ahead of Sanchez and there's no reason to think that's gonna change any time soon.
We'll see, he's shown more than enough to think he'll not onl;y be starting for the next decade(if healthy) but that he'll be one of the better QBs in this league.
Sanchez has played well enough to win 9 of 12 starts. He's had 3 bad games, if I was told it would play out like that before the season I would have done cartwheels. I expected 6-7 wins and we already have 7.
I love how all offseason Miami fans talked up their WRs and TEs and everything else but now they suck. What happened btw the offseason and now?
henne is ahead of sanchez SLIGHTLY and that has more to do w/ sitting out a season and learning then coming in w/ no pressure this year.
Are Jets' fans constantly drunk or just plain stupid?
- Thread starter ChadHenneShowV2
- Start date
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
What was Henne doing last year as a rookie? Oh yeah holding the clipboards...
Anyways you are right those Jets fans are dumb, comparing a rookie with a 2nd year QB is just stupid. We would have to compare what Sanchez does in his 2nd year compared to what Henne did this year. Either way I don't see why people even care about comparing, lets wait until either are relevant to make comparisons. Kind of lame by that board IMO.
But seriously they are 2 different QBs in different situations, one started 4 years at college than had a year on the bench to learn at a slow pace, the other started 1 full year at college than was thrown into a starting role in the NFL right away and had to learn at a fast pace.
I think Sanchez has more talent overall than Henne, sure Henne has a stronger arm but its not as much as you said or think.
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
Henne didn't outplay Sanchez in their meetings, the first one sure but the 2nd one Sanchez clearly out played him as Henne could barely move the ball on the Jets and was sacked 6 times.
I am sick of people trying to compare a rookie with a player thats been in the league. Sanchez was given unrealistic expectations this year for someone with little experience and starting right away.
But I think in the long run its good for Mark since he needed adversity and experience, he always had things go his way now he felt some losing. Make him a better QB in the long run. I still think hes going to be great, he had 3 really bad games but the rest weren't that bad and he has shown flashes of brilliance. He should of had 3 TD passes at least against the Bills, but BE dropped a easy TD and Clowney dropped a TD. He also over threw a wide open J-Co which would of been a TD. We would be thinking differently if Sanchez made those 4 TD passes.
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
Lol you are quite the character basically saying Sanchez is a bust already? Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco really changed how rookies are looked at huh? And Sanchez decision making has gotten better as the season went on, I know 3 of his INTs vs the PAtriots were because of off throw balls but the right decision as the guy was open. He has to work on his mechanics and timing which will improve his accuracy, its different being 6'2 in college and being 6'2 in the NFL..
Comparing Sanchez's 2nd to Henne this year makes no sense. Sanchez would have had 2 years of being the starter vs one for Henne. The only reason Sanchez is a Jet is b/c they let go of Pennington and Favre left. if Pennington was still there/or Favre, do you honestly believe Sanchez would not only be drafted but start as well?
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
Dude shut up, how much of a homer could you be? The Jets are ranked #1 in most of the defensive stats, they have been the top defense this year. The Dolphins are ranked towards the bottom half in defense, don't say the Dolphins are as good.
And if Revis is really that good to make the entire defense #1 he may be the best of all time. Revis is only 24 years old and is the best in the game, he'll be here for some time. David Harris is emerging as a great player and is 25 years old.
Jets don't even have Kris Jenkins and they been great. The Jets probably will be the better defensive team for a while as long as Rex Ryan is HC who is one of the top defensive minds in the sport and that can't be argued as he turned the Jets defense into the #1 ranked defense in just his first year.
The Jets defense is loaded with talent, if they can get a stud edge rusher like Jerry Hughes in the draft and maybe get a young DE/DT to work in there we will be set.
Yep. And since he didn't, the reaction to Sanchez's season makes 1,000,000% perfect sense.
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
It would make much more sense than comparing a rookie to a 2nd year QB. Henne had an entire offseason and season to learn the system and the NFL. Sanchez came right out of college and had to learn fast, he didn't have the time like Henne to learn the system and work on his craft. Not to mention Henne had more college experience than Sanchez had.
If Pennington was still here yes we would be starting him over Sanchez but Sanchez would be starting anyways because Penny got injured. We would have drafted Sanchez because they have been trying to find a franchise QB for a while, they tried getting Matt Ryan in the 2008 draft and I'm sure they still would of traded up for Mark this year who they also loved.
Breed
Pro Bowler
Quit hiding behind stats? The stats prove without a doubt that Henne has been significantly better than Sanchez, everything else is really hearsay.
I've never been one to say it's "all about QB", as a matter of fact, my motto has always been "the QB position has been and will always be the position that gets the most credit for a win and the most blame for a loss". Having said that, the Jets have a hell of a team, aside from the most important position (QB).
Looking at the stats, if the Jets had a decent QB, they could be winning the division right now.
Points & Yards Allowed Per Game
Jets: 16.2 PAPG/264.7 YAPG
Bengals: 16.7 PAPG/295.5 YAPG
Colts: 16.7 PAPG/337.4 YAPG
Ravens: 16.8 PAPG/305.9 YAPG
Broncos: 17.7 PAPG/290.7 YAPG
Cowboys: 17.9 PAPG/329.4 YAPG
Patriots: 18 PAPG/320.6 YAPG
49ers: 18.6 PAPG/338.6 YAPG
Packers: 18.6 PAPG/272 YAPG
Vikings: 18.7 PAPG/303.6 YAPG
Steelers: 18.8 PAPG/294.1 YAPG
Redskins: 19.3 PAPG/305.5 YAPG
Cardinals: 19.8 PAPG/359.8 YAPG
Chargers: 19.9 PAPG/324.2 YAPG
Bills: 20.8 PAPG/359.8 YAPG
Eagles: 21 PAPG/320.1 YAPG
Texans: 21 PAPG/329.3 YAPG
Saints: 21.1 PAPG/347.6 YAPG
Panthers: 21.7 PAPG/329.7 YAPG
Jaguars: 22.1 PAPG/346.5 YAPG
Bears: 22.4 PAPG/329.7 YAPG
Seahawks: 23.2 PAPG/357.2 YAPG
Falcons: 23.5 PAPG/375.7 YAPG
Dolphins: 23.5 PAPG/339.7 YAPG
Browns: 24.2 PAPG/386.2 YAPG
Raiders: 24.3 PAPG/372.5 YAPG
Titans: 24.8 PAPG/357.5 YAPG
Giants: 25.4 PAPG/307.2 YAPG
Chiefs: 26.3 PAPG/385.2 YAPG
Bucs: 27.4 PAPG/361.5 YAPG
Rams: 27.8 PAPG/370 YAPG
Lions: 31.2 PAPG/400.5 YAPG
Defensive Turnovers/Special Teams & Defensive Touchdowns:
Saints: 37/9
Packers: 33/3
Eagles: 32/6
Bills: 29/2
Panthers: 28/1
Jets: 27/1
49ers: 25/3
Patriots: 24/2
Colts: 24/2
Broncos: 23/4
Bears: 23/2
Ravens: 22/4
Texans: 22/3
Jaguars: 22/0
Bengals: 21/4
Titans: 21/4
Vikings: 21/3
Giants: 21/3
Cardinals: 21/2
Chiefs: 21/1
Chargers: 20/4
Seahawks: 20/3
Bucs: 20/3
Falcons: 20/2
Raiders: 19/0
Lions: 18/2
Dolphins: 16/4
Cowboys: 16/3
Steelers: 16/3
Rams: 16/1
Redskins: 15/0
Browns: 14/2
So on a per game average, New York's defense is allowing 7.3 fewer points per game and forcing an additional .85 turnovers per game. On the flip side, the Dolphins have a combined 3 more touchdowns on defense/special teams (an additional 1.62 points per game if you factor in the extra points).
In the game against the Patriots, the Dolphins gave up 21 points and created 2 turnovers, pretty good against that sort of offense. But Henne also played lights out, and without him the Dolphins very likely would've lost that game (offense scored 22 points against a defense that has allowed an average of 18 points per game).
In the game against the Jaguars, the Dolphins were moving the ball really well and were definitely better than the 14 points indicated. There were 3 offensive turnovers (Henne-1, Williams-1, Bess-1) and a missed fg (38 yards). The defense played great (despite not causing any turnovers), but Henne also played really well and we won.
Henne hasn't lost games for the Dolphins anywhere near to the extent Sanchez has for the Jets.
Henne has only started in 3 games where his team has given up 17 or fewer points, the Dolphins have won all of those games. Those games were won 38-10 against the Bills, 24-17 against the Panthers and 14-10 against the Jaguars. Sanchez has started in 7 such games, where the Jets have gone 6-1. Here are the results of those games: 24-7 win against the Texans, 16-9 win against the Patriots, 24-17 win against the Titans, 16-13 loss against the Bills, 38-0 win agains the Raiders, 17-6 win against the Panthers and a 19-13 win against the Bills. Most of those 7 games could've been won by almost any scrub QB.
Of the games Henne has started where the Dolphins have given up between 18-27 points, the Dolphins are 1-1. The Dolphins won one of those games 31-27 against the Jets and lost the other game 27-17 against the Patriots. The Jets are 0-2 in such games under Sanchez. The Jets lost 24-10 against the Saints (in large part because of the poor performance by Sanchez) and 24-22 against the Jaguars.
Record as a starter (2009)
Henne: 7-3
Sanchez: 6-6
TD/TO (2009)
Henne: 1.11 (10/9)
Sanchez: .70 (14/20)
Net Yard Average (2009):
Sanchez: 5.68
Henne: 5.34
YPA (2009)
Sanchez: 6.9
Henne: 6.3
YPC (2009)
Sanchez: 3.3
Henne: .9 (a far higher % of his "rushing attempts" have been qb kneels)
Sacks per drop back (2009)
Henne: 1 sack every 17.5 drop backs
Sanchez: 1 sack every 14.5 drop backs
Completion % (2009)
Henne: 58.8
Sanchez: 53.2
There is absolutely no doubt, if Henne had the supporting cast that Sanchez has, the Dolphins would be better than 7-6. As it is, with a similar running game and an inferior defense, Henne has been considerably better than Sanchez, no matter which stats you look at (personal or team).
Henne does have the advantage in that he's not a rookie, like Sanchez, but that's offset by the talent the Jets have over the Dolphins. There isn't much of a sample size for either player and they are both talented, so who knows who will be better long-term, but so far, Henne has clearly been the better of the two.
As for judging the two on pure talent....
Athleticism: Sanchez>>Henne
Arm Strength: Henne>Sanchez
Accuracy: Henne>Sanchez
Pocket Presence: draw
Breed
Pro Bowler
Then again, Henne and Sanchez weren't facing each other, they were facing each other's defenses. Considering how much better New York's defense is than Miami's, it's not hard to see why Sanchez outplayed Henne in the 2nd Miami vs New York matchup.
You can show me any #s you want but the bottom line is he has played well enough to win 9 of his 12 starts. If it was about the QB we'd be 10-3.
The Dolphins D shut down the Pats in the 2nd half allowing the Miami O time to come back and win that game.
Turnovers are part of the game, Henne has turned it over alot in the 4th qtr and he did it at jax too. Sure we can take out the TOs and your O moved the ball well against them but you turned it over and didn't score on those possessions.
Sanchez has lost 3 games(and one of them if we don't gte a holding call we have a chip shot in OT to win it) and Henne has cost Miami at least 2 games as a starter and one game when he came on in relief.
The D blew the Jaguar game, Sanchez led us to the go ahead TD in the final 5 mins.
Henne has had the better year BUT he's also had a year+ to learn on the bench and came in w/ absolutely no pressure. Sanchez came in w/ a ton of pressure and started day 1 as a rookie. That is a HUGE difference and there isn't a huge difference btw the play of both this year.
Henne may turn out better in the long run, there's plenty of time for that to play out but to act like henne has arrived and sanchez sucks is just plain ignorant.
Sanchez lost his best playmaker on offense in Leon Washington, Edwards came here in week 5, Cotchery has been in and out of the lineup. Sheer talent we have alot but you can't minimize what has happened to that talent.
Accuracy on long balls: Sanchez>henne
Accuracy intermediate: Henne>Sanchez
I hope both of these guys turn out to be really good b/c then we will see alot of great games and div races btw our teams in the future. I wouldn'g trade Sanchez and I'm sure you guys wouldn't trade Henne, we'll see in a few years where this battle is at.
Obviously our FO wasn't happy w/ the QB situation which was why they traded for Favre. If we still had Chad I think we still make the trade but not if we still had favre b/c of the $$.
Remember, Chad P. wasn't there when henne was drafted- they picked him up late in camp b/c they didn't think henne was ready. if the Jets thought the same thing about sanchez they would have picked up a vet.
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
No Jets talent does not off set the factor that Henne is in year 2 and Sanchez is a rookie, or that Henne had far more college experience and a NFL mentor in Pennington. Or that Henne has a much better OC than Sanchez who knows how to keep it simple for the young guy and also had that wild cat taking pressure off of him. Heck our first meeting vs each other this year the Jets barely gameplanned vs Henne and admittedly so, they focused on the Wild cat.
You cannot compare the 2 as they are in totally different situations. Ones a rookie and the others a 2nd year player.
One of my biggest pet peeves is when people compare rookies to players that been in the league, you just can't do it. QB is a difficult position to play and when you are a rookie not only are you learning the teams system but trying to learn how to play in the NFL.
And not everything can be blamed on Sanchez that we aren't leading the division right now. Against you guys the 2nd time we played Sanchez played a good game but Shonn Greene fumbling and the 2 KR for TDs lost the game. Or in the Bills game when Sanchez had 5 INTs, if the OC just kept running the ball Sanchez wouldn't of had 5 INTs and we would of won the game as the Bills barely were moving on us.
I think its a good learning experience for Mark and later he'll be winning those games. Also the Braylon Edwards trade ended up costing some INTs IMO, getting him in mid season. Some INTs by Sanchez was him forcing the ball downfield to him or trying to hit him on a post that either Sanchez just plain missed or you could say it was because BE wasn't running a great route and wasn't where he should have been.
Yes I am glad we have BE but I wish we had gotten him earlier, he does help in the run game as he gets more respect than a guy like Stuckey. Sanchez is most comfortable when throwing to Cotchery who he had time with in training camp.
Some of Sanchez worst games were when he only had either BE or J-Co.
I just think its too early to judge Sanchez, some of you are going off with how bad Sanchez is and how Henne is a star (even though he has a 74 QB rating and Tom Brady who came in year 2 was much better)
I have a feeling Sanchez will have a higher QB rating than 74 next year. I think Henne is a solid game manager, just don't know how good he'll be. I hated him in college as he always choked in games and was hesitate with the ball. Hes doing solid though right now. He has been better than Mark this year, but he has a very big advantage.
You would think you guys would hope that Sanchez becomes a good QB, so that there will be great battles between Henne and Sanchez in the future if both turn out to be franchise guys. Always more interesting when teams have good QBs.
Jetsfan0099
Scout Team
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 9
Numbers aren't everything, you have to watch the player to see the full story. I remember Derek Anderson had some decent stats a few years ago, but when I watched him in a game I was like "wow this guy is overrated" he turned out to be a 1 yr wonder.
AphexPhin
Active Roster
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2009
- Messages
- 5,110
- Reaction score
- 2,061
- Location
- about 2000 miles away from Miami ugh