Beating the Patriots (notes and observations) | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Beating the Patriots (notes and observations)

On offense: We have to be able to run the ball...period! Not every play but enough to control the clock and keep Brady on the sidelines where he belongs. Short passing game, getting first downs and not turning it over is how we beat them, not 45 yd bombs. If we have to kick a field goal so be it, but Sturgis has to be money on Sunday. Tannehill HAS TO avoid his one boneheaded INT this week.
On defense: it's simple--pressure Brady and take away the running game. He rolls up like a little girl when he feels pressure. Wake will not consistently get to him on the outside--he will just step up and avoid it. We need to attack him up the middle with more twists and stunts. Not having to face Gronk is HUGE for us, as we can focus on stopping the run. I believe it will be a very close game and if we can finish in the 4th quarter we will win. We are going to shock the world, but our players will not be shocked--they expect to win this game.
 
our offense is doing more than it probably should be because the qb is carrying it...we have limitations that a lot of qbs would fail miserably with...in that regard tannehills saving some of these guys skins...

i think when moss was getting up there in years as in he couldn't separate anymore from single coverage vertical which was a major red flag i saw before the pats traded him they did the right thing and went with welker as the focal point...that's one thing about beli and the pats they id their future returns studs and guys who are about to or are falling off with almost perfect timing and adjust their scheme and who they should hitch their wagon to damn well...and usually can find some sucker still living off what a players past reputation is instead of future return...

imo off what i saw it went moss, welker, gronk and 2 tight end...it was gronk still this year and they were starting to kill people with it before he went out sunday although the 2 tight end mismatch thing was out the window cause they didn't have it...thus more slot emphasis with amendola and edelman...nothing was gonna change any time soon there barring yet another major injury

now it looks to me like shane vereen is gonna be driving the train for the short term...although i don't think he's the level of any of those guys who carried em in the past and easier to limit

The point in this case, though, is if you're Belichick and you're looking at Dolphins tape... which skill position player are you trying to stop? For me it's Hartline, with your second focus on Clay. Take away Tannehill's security blanket. Make Rishard Matthews beat you between the hashes and make Tannehill and Wallace connect deep.
 
The point in this case, though, is if you're Belichick and you're looking at Dolphins tape... which skill position player are you trying to stop? For me it's Hartline, with your second focus on Clay. Take away Tannehill's security blanket. Make Rishard Matthews beat you between the hashes and make Tannehill and Wallace connect deep.

i know clays on that list...i guess i could see where they would feel confident talib can handle mike wallace for the most part on his own...physically he will own him so sherman needs to understand this and work to get him off the los clean etc...talib does a pretty good job of shutting down your top weapon

but if we work off pa on first down like we did vs carolina we could have some vertical success...problem is though that the pats aren't gonna play it like the panthers did where they commit 8 to the box when they can limit our run game with just 7 as it is...carolina dared us to work em deep with wallace on early downs...i don't think beli will play it like that...he could but talib could have problems with that speed...

so yeah they are gonna make mathews make plays and show em and like you said probably focus on hartline and the move the sticks guy and they know that they got some issues with a lb on clay so may see more safety attention there in some sets
 
Until Wallace and Tannehill prove they can hit consistently I wouldn't pay Wallace any special attention at all if I'm a D coordinator. When they had the chance in that Panthers game if they would have hit on 3 or 4 of those wide open TDs and blown the game wide open it might be a different story, but that was as good as it'll ever get for those 2 and they still only managed 7 points.
 
i know clays on that list...i guess i could see where they would feel confident talib can handle mike wallace for the most part on his own...physically he will own him so sherman needs to understand this and work to get him off the los clean etc...talib does a pretty good job of shutting down your top weapon

but if we work off pa on first down like we did vs carolina we could have some vertical success...problem is though that the pats aren't gonna play it like the panthers did where they commit 8 to the box when they can limit our run game with just 7 as it is...carolina dared us to work em deep with wallace on early downs...i don't think beli will play it like that...he could but talib could have problems with that speed...

so yeah they are gonna make mathews make plays and show em and like you said probably focus on hartline and the move the sticks guy and they know that they got some issues with a lb on clay so may see more safety attention there in some sets

Exactly. Now that the coaches film has been released I can go and take a look at the Patriots' tendencies but I'd expect a good deal of cover 6 in this game. That's a cover 2/man under (or flat/zone) look to one side and a cover 4 look to the other. That's not an uncommon coverage against us, but usually it's Wallace that gets the cover 2 side of the defense (as that is the "double team" side). Belichick might give those looks to Hartline instead.

Anyway, what you give up here is the comeback to Wallace's side. Not his best route. And you leave yourself open to the deep post if your pass rush doesn't get home (if the offense can influence the cover 4 side safety with something in front of him).

Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about:

coverages-1.jpg


In the scenario I'm talking about, the defense would be in this alignment with Hartline to the bottom of the screen. Wallace would be on the top. You can see how Wallace would have the comeback open to him because of the delay the linebacker has in getting into his hook/curl responsibility. However, the corner to Hartline's side would essentially be eliminating any comeback Hartline would try to run, which is his best route.
 
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Exactly. Now that the coaches film has been released I can go and take a look at the Patriots' tendencies but I'd expect a good deal of cover 6 in this game. That's a cover 2/man under (or flat/zone) look to one side and a cover 4 look to the other. That's not an uncommon coverage against us, but usually it's Wallace that gets the cover 2 side of the defense (as that is the "double team" side). Belichick might give those looks to Hartline instead.

Anyway, what you give up here is the comeback to Wallace's side. Not his best route. And you leave yourself open to the deep post if your pass rush doesn't get home (if you can influence the cover 4 side safety with something in front of him).

Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about:

coverages-1.jpg


In the scenario I'm talking about, the defense would be in this alignment with Hartline to the bottom of the screen. Wallace would be on the top. You can see how Wallace would have the comeback open to him because of the delay the linebacker has in getting into his flat responsibility. However, the corner to Hartline's side would essentially be eliminating any comeback Hartline would try to run, which is his best route.

that's why if i'm miami and i don't disagree with your assessments of what is not the best route for wallace and what is the best route for hartline i would look to get mathews in the game and run with a slot true wr and a flexed tight end in clay on the opposite side of the formation...2 wr sets with single in line tight ends play into what the defense and route tendencies...

it's also why i would look to work the field more vertical on play action on 1st down...that's when our best opportunities will arise...and yes you can if the protection holds up with wallace speed run a deep post and bang em in this scenario you presented especially with the growith i see in tannehills ability to hold safeties with his eyes in his drop and get movement and flow away from his intentions provided you threaten that safety with something down the seam underneath but sherman knows what you and i both know also...that they can't trust the protection to hold up for that route to develop...we have adjusted to more stop routes vs off coverage and short quick hitters to get the ball out

so you take your shots off pa where even in max protect some times the protection can break down...and work more 3 wr and flexed tight end looks in shot gun...and in empty sets motion a lamar miller out for a potential mismatch

one thing you do have to be careful of is mathews in the slot same side as hartlin on the boundary and an 8 yard off coverage presnap look cause tannehill is gonna read it the comeback to hartline is the primary and i have seen instances where the slot defender forgoes the slot ie mathews and drops right back into that area outside the numbers to make a play on the ball...

anyways i agree that we will probably see a lot of that coverage if we run a lot of 2 wr sets...and the way hartline dimes guys at the sticks he may well be the one that gets more attention...although to me i'd much rather have em dime me all the way down the field than let a guy with over the top speed on any play beat me...but like you said the pats may be thinking the protection wont hold up long enough to let those routes to wallace develop and beat you with them...i know they see our issues there and what we are doing to try and compensate...they are definitely not a mystery
 
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that's why if i'm miami and i don't disagree with your assessments of what is not the best route for wallace and what is the best route for hartline i would look to get mathews in the game and run with a slot true wr and a flexed tight end in clay on the opposite side of the formation...2 wr sets with single in line tight ends play into what the defense and route tendencies...

The Patriots are going to read this as a passing formation, though, so you're kind of tipping your hand. I'd like to see us run out of this and try to take advantage of Dane Fletcher.

it's also why i would look to work the field more vertical on play action on 1st down...that's when our best opportunities will arise...and yes you can if the protection holds up with wallace speed run a deep post and bang em in this scenario you presented especially with the growith i see in tannehills ability to hold safeties with his eyes in his drop and get movement and flow away from his intentions provided you threaten that safety with something down the seam underneath but sherman knows what you and i both know also...that they can't trust the protection to hold up for that route to develop...we have adjusted to more stop routes vs off coverage and short quick hitters to get the ball out

I agree. But as I said in my initial post, I also like our opportunities for Clay and even Egnew in the passing game on early downs. Hightower and Spikes are weak coverage linebackers. One other thing I'd like in this game is to run an end around with Matthews. Not a staple play, obviously, but I'm interested in any way to extend the Patriots horizontally with the running game.

so you take your shots off pa where even in max protect some times the protection can break down...and work more 3 wr and flexed tight end looks in shot gun...and in empty sets motion a lamar miller out for a potential mismatch

Maybe. But they've tried it a few times this year and it hasn't worked. Miller isn't a natural receiver.

one thing you do have to be careful of is mathews in the slot same side as hartlin on the boundary and an 8 yard off coverage presnap look cause tannehill is gonna read it the comeback to hartline is the primary and i have seen instances where the slot defender forgoes the slot ie mathews and drops right back into that area outside the numbers to make a play on the ball...

Absolutely a concern.
 
This is an excellent thread. Allow me to add a Patriots point of view.

This has been a very odd season. Its been very inspiring with all the late game wins. At the same time its be depressing watching 5 key players go to the IR (Mayo, Wilfolk, Kelly., Volmer, and Gronk) and have many more missing games or obviously limited, (Talib, Dennard, Gregory, Dobson, Thompkins, Cannon, Hooman, etc). I thought that this year was going to be the best defense the Pats have had since 2007, and we now have line up littered with UDFA's, FA cuts, and rookie low round picks having to start. But on the other hand if you had told me at the start of the season the Pats would be 10-3 with everyone healthy, I would have been thrilled. Very confusing.

But it is what it is, and now its one to Miami, where the Pats have a hard time under the best of conditions. I think its clear now that there is no game the Pats can't win, but on the other hand there is not team that isn't capable of beating them if they don't play well. Miami easily has as much individual talent as the Pats if not more. But what has made this team one of my personal favorites is the sum is clearly greater than the individual parts, and its one of the more mentally tough teams of the BB era. But they are also a flawed team and the OP pointed it out well right from the start of the thread.

Now I will do what we all try and do and usually fail, and that's trying to predict how BB will game plan the Fins. Here is my attempt. Take it for what its worth.

When the Pats are on offense:

1. I think BB is going to go back to one of his first innovations from back in the 2003-2006 era It was about that time when BB went from a run first philosophy to going primarily to 4 and 5 wides and an empty backfield, especial against teams with good defenses (ie Steelers) and shredded them with this. Right now the 2 major offensive threats on the Pats are their WR's and RBs.

2. WR's I don't think Dobson will be ready for this game so the Dolphins will likely see some combination Amendola, Edelman, Boyce, and Thompkins. Amendola still playing with a torn groin, but seems to slowly be gettiing better. Edelman is having a career season. Boyce showed that he's an explosive player who can get deep in his first real action of the year, and Thompkins is having a nice rookie year playing in the Deion Branch role. Not one of them is going to strike fear in any DC's heart, and the TE's threats quite frankly will leave them laughing. But this isn't about individuals, but the collective and the guy making the decisions. And that is something to be feared.

Don't forget the Pats won 3 superbowls without ever having a WR with 1000 yds or 10 TDs. The good news for Miami is that they won't have to game plan against any mismatch nightmares. The bad news is WHERE do the Dolphins focus. I think the Pats will spread the Dolphins out and let the Dolphins decide where the ball is going by their coverage. If the Dolphins Blits, the ball will be go even if the have a man come clean on the outside. Brady is simply the best QB in the league in reading where throw against the blitz. The ONLY way to effectively pass rush against him is up the middle.

3. RB's The Pats have a very solid running game. I think Ridley is a top 10 RB .....when he holds on to the ball. If he gets his 15-20 carries he going to be well over 4ypc and have at least one run over 10yd

Blount has been a revelation. I was against this trade from the outset. Bucs fans told us he was a 250lb power back that thought he was Barry Sanders. Nothing he did in the first 9 game led me to believe anything different. He had his moments, but more often than not he wound up NOT falling forward at the end of his runs. Then just as suddenly the last few games somehow the coaches finally got through to him, and he's completely turned his game around. He hits the hole hard. He's moving the pile. He's getting the tough short yardage. I don't know how it happened, but he's a great asset to the Pats RB core.

Boldin - is a good solid workmanlike RB. He's there era's BJGE, only surrounded by better RBs

Vareen - We all thought that Vareen was Danny Woodhead, only bigger, and with more upside. He hasn't disappointed. He's run between the tackles on the GL and he's split wide on pass plays.

Devlin - He's the FB who has had his role increasing as his execution has improved. A former Ivy league DE, he's made himself into a decent receiver. A big surprise.

4. So the Pats will run some TE formations and will throw Play Action off them, but I think for the most part the Dolphins will see lots of multiple WR formations and motion, with quick passes and no huddle.

When the Pats are on defense: OUCH

I am among the minority who think that the Pats can still score over 25 points with the offense minus Gronk. Lots of problems you saw in the first game with the receivers have been improved on. The DEFENSE however is in really bad shape.

1. On the plus side they CAN play decently against the run. They held the Panther RB's to under 40 yds collectively, and did well against the Browns, so they CAN, on occasion play decent run defense. I know Thomas did well last week, but the Pats historically do better against big power backs than smaller quick ones, you your injury situation is in our favor.

2. If I were the DC this game I wouldn't do the obvious and put Talib on Wallace. First I don't know if he's healthy enough, and 2nd Wallace is the kind of receiver that give Talib the most problems. So I'd put Talib on Hartline and completely shut him down, and them use Dennard (who is very physical) with a Safety over the top to cover Wallace.

3. The Pats blitz and stunt probably as little as anyone in the league. IIRC the average blitz percentage in the league is around 30%. The Pats are around 15%. For this game I think they need to be at LEAST at the league average if the Pats are going to win. They need to make Tannyhill unsure of what he's seeing. Otherwise I think the Dolphins are fully capable of carving up the Pats like the Browns did, and make this game a shoot out, which I think favors them, because, while I think this offense is going to be OK by the playoffs, this is the first game without Gronk, so there will be growing pains.

4. Finally it will all come down like it usually does to TURNOVERS - The team that ends up on the plus side of this stat is likely to be the winner and all the talk that came before this will end up being meaningless :D
 
I'm watching this Pats/Browns game on the All 22. I'm focusing just on the Browns passing plays, looking at the kind of coverages the Patriots are using. And it's actually kind of ****ing amazing how much better a football player Josh Gordon is than Aqib Talib.

Talib's game is all about strength, yet Gordon is manhandling him. And he's quicker than him. And of course he blows by him deep. He is absolutely no match, not in the same class.

Yet here it is and I'm not quite through the first half and the Pats are having Talib shadow Gordon everywhere and leaving him without safety help most of the time. No wonder Gordon ended up burning them. He's open on just about every play. I wish Wallace were 1/4 as good as he is.
 
Josh Gordon is amazing and people said I was nuts when I came in here and said 'see if Cleveland will trade him to us for a 2nd' earlier in the year. I don't look like a nut anymore! And you're right, we don't have anyone of that caliber on our roster.
 
work more pa on first down to try and get vertical...but you better watch out for and focus on chandler jones cause he can beat you by himself...attack the lbs in coverage the base guys that's a no brainer...no one can cover worth a hoot but we always seem to have a hard time getting after them...

cam wake needs to dominate the right tackle cannon too...i suspect vernon or jordan is gonna struggle with solder

FYI, Soldier missed practice with a concussion yesterday although he returned today. Going to be interesting to see if this plays a factor on Sunday.
 
Josh Gordon is amazing and people said I was nuts when I came in here and said 'see if Cleveland will trade him to us for a 2nd' earlier in the year. I don't look like a nut anymore! And you're right, we don't have anyone of that caliber on our roster.

The problem with trading for Gordon isn't his talent. It's the fact that he's one more violation from getting suspended for a year and has a well deserved reputation for laziness and hanging around with thugs.
 
Here's an excerpt from an article in the Providence Journal stating just how many problems the Patsies D has had recently. It's a pretty good read. With the problems their D is having and the O beginning to really click I could see the Fins putting at least 30 points on the board.

The defense never allowed more than 27 points in its first six games. Since then, opponents have scored at least 30 points four times. In the last five games, playing against only one team ranked in the top half of offensive units in the league, the Patriots have allowed an average of 28.6 points.

Coach Bill Belichick and defensive coordinator Matt Patricia have done all kinds of shuffling throughout the defense. But without several of their best players, it has been a challenge.

The team has dropped all the way to 24th in total defense, having allowed 4,840 yards, which is 303 more than 16th place Miami. Perhaps the biggest issue has been the defensive line and its inability to stop the run.

Wilfork and Kelly are big, wide men who can hold their ground. They have been replaced by two much smaller rookies in Joe Vellano and Chris Jones. Those two were pleasant surprises early on, but as opposing offenses have studied film, they have seen the Pats’ duo can be moved around. The Pats brought in veterans Andre Carter and Isaac Sopoaga to help. Both are past their prime. Carter has helped in spots, but Sopoaga has seen his time cut back.

Last week, Sealver Siliga was promoted from the practice squad (he earlier had been on the practice squad with three others teams) and thrown into action.

The Pats have fallen all the way to next-to-last (31st) in the league in rushing yards allowed at 135.8 per start.

The linebacker situation is unsettled, as well. Brandon Spikes, who saw limited action early, has taken over as the team’s leading tackler, but he struggles in pass defense. Dont’a Hightower has taken over as the signal-caller who communicates with the sideline. Belichick was asked Wednesday how Hightower has done and the coach offered a less-than-ringing endorsement.

“Better each week,” Belichick said. “He’s a smart guy. … I don’t think any of that is too much for him. He has a lot of experience this year obviously in our system. He’s a lot more comfortable with what we’re doing, whereas last year he knew it, but I think this year he just knows it better because he’s had a year of experience. He’s done a good job. It really hasn’t been an issue.”

With all the injuries, the Patriots are more limited in what they are able to do. The defense looks more like the unit that struggled at times in the last several years than the one that looked so good early on. It is understandable if New England fans question what will happen from here on in.

Miami, on the other hand, is peaking offensively. The Dolphins scored a season-high 34 points last week in Pittsburgh.

http://www.providencejournal.com/sp...ill-make-it-tougher-to-live-without-gronk.ece
 
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