Boomer, Ck: Tell us your take on the Fins picks | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Boomer, Ck: Tell us your take on the Fins picks

NaboCane said:
Allen is an awesome talent, and I'll keep saying that because I believe it and because I don't want anyone to think I'm putting him down at all. Even his health concern I could set aside, unless it will be chronic and debilitating.

But my point is that Saban acted in a way that defied his own blueprint for building the team by taking Allen over Carpenter and Cromartie. As I said in my analysis, those two are custom-made for what Saban wants for his D...that's not me saying it, it's his own definition of the positions.

Allen is a great talent, and will doubtless perform well if the concern about his hip is unfounded or exaggerated; however, an irrefutable fact is Allen's size - he is 6'0"+...now answer me this: if Saban has stated a preference for big corners, then why would he want a small safety!?

Is it possible that he wants his safeties smaller than his corners? Of course not. So Saban went against type for Allen, because he considers Allen to be such a superior player that he overcomes his height and weight. Fine. But what about his injury history? Forget the hip for the moment, this is what Scott Wright and Draft Scout had to say:






Hmm...you know, for all the swooning being done around here for this guy, he sure has a lot of weaknesses that don't translate well to the pros; "Average speed for the outside might be exposed at the next level..." "Has very good timed speed, but struggles a bit to maintain position when trying to cover on the perimeter..." "Slow to recognize plays / sometimes influenced by play-action..."

Here's the bottom line: Might be a 'tweener without a true position... this is not a quality you look for in a 1st-round pick, in the middle of the round.. It's a quality that, if you're a coach with the pedigree of a Nick Saban, as smart and disciplined as he's supposed to be with his draft picks, you let other coaches make the mistake of taking him too early.

If you're a coach with the savvy and the confident knowledge of what you want of each position and each player on your team, you don't pass on a Bobby Carpenter; 6'3"/256#/4.6 - the absolute prototype of the linebacker you've wanted on your team, and a very difficult position to draft for because they don't come along this perfect very often - or an Antonio Cromartie; 6'2"+/ 208#/4.4 - a guy who exceeds the prototype of your ideal corner, a guy with a combination of coverage skills at a high program/competition level and essentially the same speed as the undersized guy you did end up drafting.

You don't take an undersized player with injury concerns - various injury concerns - in the middle of the 1st round. You just don't. And you ABSOLUTELY don't do that when you only have 3 picks in the first 6 rounds, in a draft as deep as this one in talent and players with coachable issues and tremendous upside. You just don't.

Someone argued that Allen is pound-for-pound the best DB in the draft; and that's fine. Except that players don't play pound-for-pound - they play as the sum total of their assets and liabilities. Talent is ONE of the factors that go into evaluating a player; how he fits into your overall plan - your blueprint for your team - is another. And yet another is injury history; a player with a history of more than one injury that is outside the unfortunately normal knee injuries and breaks, bumps and bruises in college doesn't translate well into a world in which all the players are the size, speed and power of the very best you faced in college.

But the one deciding factor in evaluating who's best for a certain pick in a draft in which you have very few picks to begin with is who else is available when it's your turn to make that pick.

And, more than Allen's liabilities, it's the assets of Bobby Carpenter and Antonio Cromartie at that pick, and how well they fit into the plan that Saban himself has for his team, that make me reach the conclusion that Allen was the wrong pick for Saban to make with the 16th pick on Saturday.
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Again, just because your board doesn't agree with his is irrelevent, Allen was a top 12 player to Saban, the players you named were not.

He stayed true to his BPA philosophy.
 
I like his raw talent, size and speed. Saban has a plan, and we're going to love it! Think maybe I need to become a PhinInsider . . .

In Saban We Trust!
 
Nappy Roots said:
how are you disagreeing with me then?
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Because quickness and ability to separate are more important in making big plays than 40 timed speed, as witnessed by Jerry Rice who was slower than Hagen.

Football is not a track race, his excellent 10 yard speed off the line and coming out of breaks is far more important to making big plays.
 
BlueFin said:
Because quickness and ability to separate are more important in making big plays than 40 timed speed, as witnessed by Jerry Rice who was slower than Hagen.

Football is not a track race, his excellent 10 yard speed off the line and coming out of breaks is far more important to making big plays.
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:lol: ok...when did i say any different?
 
BlueFin said:
Because quickness and ability to separate are more important in making big plays than 40 timed speed, as witnessed by Jerry Rice who was slower than Hagen.

Football is not a track race, his excellent 10 yard speed off the line and coming out of breaks is far more important to making big plays.
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Bingo. Terrell Owens is another guy who wasn't considered a burner and he lasted to the 3rd round, I believe.

Blazing speed is often overrated in WR's, IMO.
 
as far as Hagan goes, how fast was OJ Mcduffie? 4.50, 4.55 or thereabouts? his tremendous quickness and heart made him the super productive receiver he was over his career. danny throwing to him didn't hurt either. OJ was also selected a lot higher. i like the pick, he's big, he's fast, and he was super productive at the college level. as long as he holds on to the ball, i think he's going to impress.
 
Nabocane, didn't Cromartie miss all of 2005 with a knee injury? Doesn't that go against your injury argument? And Cromartie is less than 2 inches taller and barely 5 pounds lighter. How does that make Allen undersized but Cromartie the perfect match for Saban's philosophy? Allen is a tremendous tackler and led the SEC safeties in tackles one year I believe. I have to disagree with your assessment of him, however it was a well thought out arguement.
 
how many great linebackers at OSU come in to the NFL and perform the way they did in college? I always think of the BIG KAT! maybe that's just me...
 
greatwade said:
Not sure I should do this, but I really enjoyed NaboCane's post (from VIP) -



CK's response, that Allen was lb for lb the most physically gifted athlete to be tested at the combine in 7 years, was a good counter argument. CK, if you read this, what lb4lb defensive back tested so well 7 years ago??
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Well, that is his opinion, which means that there is little fact in it, until he is proven right, just like in my opinion, most of what wrote is wrong, and it will not be fact until I am proven right.
 
cromartie has only 1 start in college, so what kind of player will he be...no one really knows. he's got great measurables but measurables don't make great football players. plus most of these draft scout sites if you read them carefully do tend to contradict their own points. they'll say someone's is great in run support but then say he needs to be more aggresive or they'll say he's got speed to get to the outside but later it will say not a homerun threat and lacks a 2nd gear. Just wait and watch them perform before jumpin all over someone 'cuz some guy who claims to be a scout when all he is is a journalist writes down his own ideas bout someone. we should look what these so-called scouts wrote about Brady or Terrel Davis...they probably were way off!
 
how can you not love the Allen and Hagan selections? they are both going to be stars at their positions. also, Toledo is an interesting selection. he has rare ability and is a great project for Houck to work with
 
circumstances said:
as far as Hagan goes, how fast was OJ Mcduffie? 4.50, 4.55 or thereabouts? his tremendous quickness and heart made him the super productive receiver he was over his career. danny throwing to him didn't hurt either. OJ was also selected a lot higher. i like the pick, he's big, he's fast, and he was super productive at the college level. as long as he holds on to the ball, i think he's going to impress.
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OJ did have the drops.
 
Hudson Houck loves later round draft picks on offensive line....he actually said that...because they come in hungry and soak up everything he tells them. Toledo is an athlete just by the fact he was recruited as a wide reciever got big and played TE and got HUGE and now is an OT/OG great size, strength and smarts. a project but probably a good one down the road...maybe a Tom Ashworth type of guy who knows...we'll see. has Saban let us down yet?
 
NaboCane said:
Allen is an awesome talent, and I'll keep saying that because I believe it and because I don't want anyone to think I'm putting him down at all. Even his health concern I could set aside, unless it will be chronic and debilitating.

But my point is that Saban acted in a way that defied his own blueprint for building the team by taking Allen over Carpenter and Cromartie. As I said in my analysis, those two are custom-made for what Saban wants for his D...that's not me saying it, it's his own definition of the positions.

Allen is a great talent, and will doubtless perform well if the concern about his hip is unfounded or exaggerated; however, an irrefutable fact is Allen's size - he is 6'0"+...now answer me this: if Saban has stated a preference for big corners, then why would he want a small safety!?

Is it possible that he wants his safeties smaller than his corners? Of course not. So Saban went against type for Allen, because he considers Allen to be such a superior player that he overcomes his height and weight. Fine. But what about his injury history? Forget the hip for the moment, this is what Scott Wright and Draft Scout had to say:






Hmm...you know, for all the swooning being done around here for this guy, he sure has a lot of weaknesses that don't translate well to the pros; "Average speed for the outside might be exposed at the next level..." "Has very good timed speed, but struggles a bit to maintain position when trying to cover on the perimeter..." "Slow to recognize plays / sometimes influenced by play-action..."

Here's the bottom line: Might be a 'tweener without a true position... this is not a quality you look for in a 1st-round pick, in the middle of the round.. It's a quality that, if you're a coach with the pedigree of a Nick Saban, as smart and disciplined as he's supposed to be with his draft picks, you let other coaches make the mistake of taking him too early.

If you're a coach with the savvy and the confident knowledge of what you want of each position and each player on your team, you don't pass on a Bobby Carpenter; 6'3"/256#/4.6 - the absolute prototype of the linebacker you've wanted on your team, and a very difficult position to draft for because they don't come along this perfect very often - or an Antonio Cromartie; 6'2"+/ 208#/4.4 - a guy who exceeds the prototype of your ideal corner, a guy with a combination of coverage skills at a high program/competition level and essentially the same speed as the undersized guy you did end up drafting.

You don't take an undersized player with injury concerns - various injury concerns - in the middle of the 1st round. You just don't. And you ABSOLUTELY don't do that when you only have 3 picks in the first 6 rounds, in a draft as deep as this one in talent and players with coachable issues and tremendous upside. You just don't.

Someone argued that Allen is pound-for-pound the best DB in the draft; and that's fine. Except that players don't play pound-for-pound - they play as the sum total of their assets and liabilities. Talent is ONE of the factors that go into evaluating a player; how he fits into your overall plan - your blueprint for your team - is another. And yet another is injury history; a player with a history of more than one injury that is outside the unfortunately normal knee injuries and breaks, bumps and bruises in college doesn't translate well into a world in which all the players are the size, speed and power of the very best you faced in college.

But the one deciding factor in evaluating who's best for a certain pick in a draft in which you have very few picks to begin with is who else is available when it's your turn to make that pick.

And, more than Allen's liabilities, it's the assets of Bobby Carpenter and Antonio Cromartie at that pick, and how well they fit into the plan that Saban himself has for his team, that make me reach the conclusion that Allen was the wrong pick for Saban to make with the 16th pick on Saturday.
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Sorry Nabo you are way off on this one.
Where o where do i begin. Cromartie is the most overrated player maybe ever. He started ONE Game. The game is played on field not on measurables. Allen is a freak if you stood them side by side only a fool would consider Allen as "smaller". Allen is the biggest db that was available he is a monster. He has huge bicepts and is very solid. Crom. is a little taller and more lean. Allen is a proven great talent Crom. would be trashed on this website. He couldnt even win a starting job. You prob havent seen Allen cause i havent met anyone who watched him who wouldnt consider him a big DB. There are so many draft experts I am sure I can find one that says the opp. of what you said so its really pointless. I am glad you have thought out ideas but it doesnt make them fact. We have some depth and i am not really sold on Carpenter and I could list his weeknesses but I will save my self the time. Saban is familiar with J. Allen and so we took him. I will back Saban cause I have seen too many things on how good at drafting he is and the 3 starters he got us last year should give him some equity.
 
finfan32 said:
boomer, ck how do i tie my shoes?
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Take your hand, clench it up into a fist and then repeatedly hit yourself in the face until you pass out.
 
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