Cap Situation - If Dolphins trade for LT Branden Albert

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by fisi, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. fisi

    fisi A True Fan Donator

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    • The Dolphins have $9.1 million remaining in cap space with 65 players under contract. Remember, only the top 51 cap numbers count against the cap, so we have 14 players under contract that do not impact the cap.


    • Also remember that the Dolphins will need about $6 million in cap space for rookie contracts. That leaves $3.1 million in cap space to spend right now.


    • After June 1st, the Dolphins will get an additional $10+ million in cap space. But this cap space CANNOT be used prior to June 1st, so the Dolphins can't sign Albert and wait for June 1st to come. If they are over the cap at any point, the NFL will take action.


    • The Dolphins could afford to trade for Albert and take the full $9.8 million hit if they were to cut Dmitri Patterson and Richard Marshall. This would open up an additional $8 million in cap space, putting the Dolphins at around $11 million in cap space (excluding rookie cap) prior to June 1st, which is enough to then fit in Albert's cap numbers.


    • There are two ways to handle the cap situation Albert would create.

    [h=3]Senario 1[/h]The Dolphins could trade for Albert and sign him to a long-term deal. His cap number for 2013 would be low and would mostly likely escalate in 2014 or 2015. The risk here is that we have several contracts escalating in 2014 and another big contract would put further strain on that. But there is a way around that risk. Remember that the cap space that the Dolphins have at the end of the 2013 season will roll over. If the Dolphins were to make Albert their last significant signing and part ways with big cap numbers such as Patterson's and Marshall's, after June 1st they would still have a considerable amount of cap space and would presumably be done with big signings. Barring a significant amount of injuries forcing the Dolphins to sign more players, the Dolphins could conceivably roll over a large amount of cap space for 2014. Some quick napkin math.
    Current cap space:

    • $9.1 million
    • $6 million for rookies
    • $3 million

    Cut Patterson and Marshall

    • $11 million in cap space

    Trade for Albert, sign to long-term deal

    • $4 million cap hit in 2013
    • $7 million in cap space

    June 1st - Dansby and Burnett off the books

    • $15 million in cap space

    Dolphins do not sign anymore free agents.

    That $15 million roll overs to 2014, where it is much needed.

    [h=3]Scenario 2 [/h]The Dolphins trade for Albert and decide to absord the $9.8 million hit this season. This could be worked under the cap and then Albert can resign for a long-term deal in 2014, with a smaller cap hit, it would fit nicely while other contracts escalate.

    Current cap space:

    • $9.1 million
    • $6 million for rookies
    • $3 million

    Cut Patterson and Marshall

    • $11 million in cap space

    Trade for Albert, take $9.8 million hit

    • $1 million in cap space

    June 1st - Dansby and Burnett off the books

    • $9 million in cap space

    Dolphins do not sign anymore free agents.

    That $9 million roll overs to 2014

    The Dolphins were willing to resign Jake Long to a long-term deal, so there is no reason they can't figure something out with Branden Albert. They can then focus on cornerback, which makes big cap numbers such as Dmitri Patterson and Richard Marshall very expendable.

    http://www.phinfever.com/newsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=953&Itemid=1
     
  2. Zounds

    Zounds A True Fan Donator

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    Its more like $8 million in savings from cutting Patterson and Marshall.

    Patterson costs $4.5 mil this year and Marshall costs $5.72 mil this year, but cutting Marshall creates $2.34 mil in dead weight due to the signing bonus issued last year, netting us only a cap savings of $7.88 mill if we cut both.

    Cutting one of the 2 players certainly is possible, but I dont see them cutting both CB's being its such a thin position.
     
  3. nate

    nate Scout Team

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    They could also sign starks to a long term deal
     
  4. Scotty P

    Scotty P Well-Known Member Donator

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    Pretty sure you can only roll over 10 mil to the next year.....i might be wrong though.
     
  5. ITS!MATEO

    ITS!MATEO A True Fan

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    He'll command 8-9 mill a year.... PASS!
     
  6. allsilverdreams

    allsilverdreams Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    i didnt think there was a cap on the money being allowed to roll over to the next season.in fact i think we rolled over more than 10million this year
     
  7. matt11390

    matt11390 Starter

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    In Dawn Aponte we trust. :bighug:
     
  8. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Or option 3.....don't make the trade and draft at OT in round 2. Our cap is going to be horrible next year with Wallace counting 17mill all by himself which is crazy. We can't afford to take on another big contract. If Ireland makes that trade then for sure he's forgetting about the future and he's trying to win noiw no matter what. I can understand him trying to win now since we haven't won in 40 years but this is very risky. If we don't win right now then we're back to having to cut pplayers again next off season and we'll start all over again. I'd just rather draft our own OT and go from there.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  9. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    There is no limit. A team HAS to roll over any unused cap space, regardless of the amount, to comply with the new CBA in spending 89% over 4 years.
     
  10. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    Money is not an issue here.
     
  11. Dolfan4life!

    Dolfan4life! A True Fan

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    Option 3 - wait until after June 1st to sign the bulk of the draft class.
     
  12. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Dolphins rookie cost number will be around $8M. A new contract for Albert will be cheap the first year, likely around $2M with it escalating next year. It is not a problem. Hell, we could even guarantee a roster bonus, which would come after June 1.
     
  13. Ferretsquig

    Ferretsquig Perennial All-Pro

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    While its not entirely out of the realm of possibility that these guys are that stupid, I have to believe either Ireland or people in his employ have the ability to plan more than two years ahead. They probably cannot sign another play to a deal structured like Wallace's, but that doesn't mean they couldn't hand out another 50 mil deal tomorrow without destroying any future cap flexibility.
     
  14. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Do they? Keep on mind that teams get into cap hell all the time even tho they have people working in the FO that "should" know better. It happens all the time. Teams trying to win now and they start giving out big contracts like we've done this off season.

    Ozzy rules!
     
  15. mnphinfan

    mnphinfan Lifelong Fin Fan

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    I've seen you spewing this nonsense for quite some time now. As of right now the Fins have only $93 mill comitted to salary for 2014. Sure they will need to resign Jones and possibly Cogs or Jerry and Starks or Soliai as well as next years draft class, but to say they are facing cap hell next year is blatantly false.

    I urge everyone to do yourself a favor and click on the link below to educate youself on what the Fins cap situation is for next year.

    http://www.thephinsider.com/2013/3/...gency-2013-miami-dolphins-salary-cap-2014-cap
     
  16. Ferretsquig

    Ferretsquig Perennial All-Pro

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    It does happen, but Miami appears to be in very good shape for at least the next couple years. I thought the Wallace contract showed a certain amount of foresight from the team's perspective. I don't know why he signed it, but I guess he figures that even if hes cut after two years he'll get another deal from someone and he'll walk away with 30 mil.

    I don't know how you see it, but from my vantage point it sure looks like this offseason was planned a couple years ago, and these signings were made with 2015 in mind. I guess it is possible all this is a random accidental occurrence......somehow I doubt it.
     
  17. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    think its closer to 100 million... and thats only with 41 players under contract. right now looking at that number without realizing that its not even close to a full roster doesnt really put it into any perspective.
     
  18. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    also... something I may have been missing from that link you provided is the assumption that only the top 51 player contracts are counted towards the cap... that is only true during the offseason. once the season starts you account for every player on your roster, so looking at the 2014 season cap situation in regards to the top 51 rule only does you justice if you are looking at the offseason aspect of it.
     
  19. mnphinfan

    mnphinfan Lifelong Fin Fan

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    Just wondering how do you get $100 mil, did the Fins add someone not on the list. The author of the post cleary breaks the contracts down as well as dead money and the total is just over $93 mil.

    Off course the roster has only 41 players. The write up is taking into consideration who the Fins may want to or may not resign. Also this years and next years draft picks would still need to be added tothe roster which will more than likely, easily get the roster to 51.

    The point of the write up is to prove to people that even with all of the FA signings this offseason the Fins won't be in cap hell next year causing them to have to either restructure or release players. Which it clearly does.
     
  20. Shaman

    Shaman Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I see a real issue here. You don't need the whole 6 million to sign rookies right now. You can wait until after we clear 10 million on June 1st to sign the big money rookies. In fact, the first round draft pick usually doesn't sign until near training camp anyway.

    I sincerely doubt Miami would trade for Albert without a restructured contract, and with it a fairly well structured first year cap hit.
     
  21. mnphinfan

    mnphinfan Lifelong Fin Fan

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    I may be missing something here but you state during the offseason you only count the top 51 player salaries and during the season you only are allowed 51 players on the roster. What's the difference?
     
  22. Patrick_Bateman

    Patrick_Bateman Rookie

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    I like this idea
     
  23. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    I use overthecap.com for my cap numbers, I can take a quick look at the breakdown and the link you provided to see where there might be a discrepancy.

    I'm pretty sure you are allowed 53 players on your active roster (not a huge difference over 51) but then you also have to take into account small hits such as practice squad, which usually takes up a million dollars over the course a season i think in cap usage.

    What people are worried about with the cap usage in the next few years isnt the fact that there isnt space now... the problem is that lets say hypothetically (as the purpose of this thread is for) we trade for and sign Albert, and give him the giant extension he's commanding. I'm not going to speculate on the numbers, but obviously its going to be a large chunk of change. Now is there room next year to make this move, absolutely, anyone saying "we are in cap hell" in that regard just doesn't understand what's going on. The issue is, if this team does not win next year, and wants to start making roster moves... now you are stuck. The dead money + the cost of the replacement of the player you cut is going to make that kind of roster maneuvering extremely difficult.

    I'm gonna take a look at the two 2014 calculations though and see if we can find a correct number (between the 93/100 in 2014 commitments.
     
  24. LandShark13

    LandShark13 A True Fan

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    Wasn't to long ago when she was involved in the snafu of cutting Porter before we had the cap space to absorb the hit. Was quite embarrassing.
     
  25. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    Quickly found the problem, the author of your article doesnt include the recent signings of Vaughn Martin (and his 2.35 mill cap hit), Nate Garner (and his 1.8 hit), and then i found a guy lee robinson, with 500k... im assuming your article didnt account for the later signings after the initial FA period started.

    Right there, thats a quick almost 5 million unaccounted for taking it closer to 98 million
     
  26. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Good post. A couple years ago, the PS players made $5,000 a week. It may be $6k now but, included with the last two on the 53 man roster, it will be under $2M.

    Next year, count on Wallace re-structuring his deal into a lot of guaranteed money being put into a signing bonus, which will be pro-rated over 4 years and not have the huge cap hit. Also, I doubt Soliai, Cog, and Starks will be here after this year. I expect a rookie or Samuda to take over for Cog, Soliai to be gone, and likely Starks, with a rookie in this draft taking one place, and Odrick the other. All in all, that will cut around $15M in cap space, with replacements deals.

    In no way are we headed for cap hell.
     
  27. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    What you have to take into account though, is already we have roughly 5-6 of our defensive starters not on the books for the 2014 season, which obviously doesn't account into the 100 million dollars we already have tied up in 2014 commitments. What this means is 1.. we have to replace all though guys. Obviously the cheapest way to do that is to find capable starters in the draft, something we clearly havent been very good at. The other thing you have to look at is we have a monster extension (hopefully) coming for reshad jones which has to be figured in there.

    My mindset for this whole situation is, with the cap most likely not raising up any higher, with us looking like we arent going to roll over very much cap towards next year, and us having to fill in the departing players with capable replacements... you cant just go out and sign proven guys in FA like we did this year (even if some of them arent proven).

    Again, if this team wins... the cap situation should be okay, if this team as assembled now + drafting doesnt win games... we will be in cap hell. Because then the choice is either keep the players who arent helping you win games, or cut them to find better ones and bite the bullet with dead money. The potential restructuring of Wallace's deal is only guaranteed for 15 million next year, and after that its basically 10, 11.5, and 11.5.... restructuring his deal only puts off the issue that one player is eating up a ton of space, eventually that method catches up to you.. plus it sets a precedent on how you do business.

    IMO, we arent restructuring his deal.
     
  28. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    And just for reference.. 41 players under contract in 2014 right now with 100 million committed. Plus, lets assume 1 million for practice squad. plus 5 for draft picks next year (just averaged 4-6 as likely number), with limited to no roll over from this year..

    You are looking at 106 million tied up in a 123 million dollar cap... with A LOT of roster holes. The way you alleviate that problem is good drafting.... adding a giant Albert $$ figure in there doesnt help one bit, and even though we can cut a few guys who dont have any dead money repercussions, the wiggle room is pretty damn tight
     
  29. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    With the new TV deals, the cap will increase next year, just a question of how much. I have seen estimates from a low of $5M to a high of $15M.

    I would bet that Wallace has already agreed to a re-structure with the signing bonus next yearwhich was not there in his current deal.
     
  30. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    You also have to take into account that the team has 11 draft picks this year. That means about 7-8 guys will be on cheap rookie deals in 2014, accounting for realistically 5 million or so. Then you've got 20 million left over and 45 under contract....it's hardly crippling and easily the toughest cap year we'll have.
     
  31. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    Pretty sure the NFL TV deal kicks in 2014 which means that would have an effect on the 2015 cap numbers and not the 2014 ones.

    And as far as Mike Wallace already agreeing to a restructure..... think thats a little hasty. I dontk now it off the top of my head, but when was the last time the Dolphin's actually restructured a contract? Have we done it since Ireland has been GM? I'm not being sarcastic at all, I really just dont know the answer.

    The reason I ask is because certain front offices have certain tendency's... for example some front offices do not restructure, some dont give signing bonus, some dont give work out bonus... its just how they do business. If we havent restructured a deal under this regime... its entirely possible its not even an option for Mike
     
  32. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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  33. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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  34. CRAZYDOLFAN305

    CRAZYDOLFAN305 We Are Still Going To The SB

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    Ireland restructured the contract of Will Allen once, and Vernon Carey, but Carey's was mostly considered as more of a paycut than anything else.
     
  35. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    It is not subject to negotiation, it is what the numbers say it is, based on the CBA. However, many differ on what the initial impact will be. Based on the history of the last time this happened, the cap should jump by $20M but, many owners see it differently. It is gonna be some fun next off season.
     
  36. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    Hmmm i just looked up the Will Allen one and PFT used the word restructure... but then said it was a paycut.

    I'm wondering if we have done any traditional restructures where its guaranteed money into signing bonus...

    ---------- Post added at 02:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

    totally right again there SOBE... just got out of donating blood, little woozy and not sure what the hell I was thinking
     
  37. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    History means nothing here. Wallace took nothing this year but, did get his guaranteed money. His deal will be re-structured next year. I would bet on it.
     
  38. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Not a problem Daman. Good to talk with a cap knowledgeable Phinatic.
     
  39. The Omen

    The Omen Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me by this post 41 vets + 4-6 Rookies = 45 to 47 players on the roster of 106 million cap... leaving 4-6 roster spots open and 17 million (assuming the cap limit stays the same) to spend on FA and 2014 draft class. That's without a restructure or cut. Hardly cap hell in my eyes.
     
  40. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    + 4-6 million for rookies drafted in the 2014 draft
    + if we create some room this year by extending starks..lowering his number this year, but adding money to later cap
    + "top 5 LT" money if we sign albert, which is what this whole thread is presuming round which is going to be 7-9+ million a year possible... and POOF... 17 million is more than gone already
     
  41. The Omen

    The Omen Well-Known Member

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    so basically worse case senario we are right at the limit... yes? still not cap hell... Not arguing, just making sure I understand.

    ---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------

    not to mention you're not counting the 2013 draft class in this equation.
     
  42. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    I understand you arent arguing, neither was I.. didnt mean for it to come off argumentative

    My entire stance on this thing is that we are not in cap hell like some suggest, but that the potential is most certainly there.

    If this team wins games and doesnt have to alter the roster significantly, there shouldnt be any problems, but if the team doesnt win next year, with big money extensions looming for Reshad Jones and Branden Albert if we do indeed trade for him... we wont have enough money to replace impending free agents except through the draft. If we hit on the draft picks, then you have great talent at a cheap cost.. but if we dont (which is kinda how we have been lately)... then you have serious roster holes but no way to fix them.

    Southbeach made a great point earlier about the possibility of the cap significantly increasing next year due to the impending NFL TV deals... but until those figures actually come through.. you have to assume the cap isnt going to go up significantly.

    Basically, are we in cap hell... no we are not. Is the potential there, especially with trading for and extending the contract of Branden Albert... now the potential implications are a lot more dire. If the team wins.... it means this group works and alterations dont need to be great and the cap should work just fine for us... if we dont win, need to cut players, take on dead money and find suitable replacements..... well now you are in "cap hell" because you dont have to room needed to do that.

    Win games, and this all fixes itself.
     
  43. bigpapaT14

    bigpapaT14 Member

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    Is Albert worth the $7-9M/year he is asking for? Is everyone on board with his talent level, or are the Dolphins just grabbing the best available LT? Is Albert a top 5 LT in the league?
     
  44. mnphinfan

    mnphinfan Lifelong Fin Fan

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    Thanks for the explanations. In a couple of your posts you write that we could possibly be in cap hell if this group of players doesn't work, but I have repeatedly read on Finheaven that under most of the players contracts we have signed this year the Fins did a great job of providing themselves an out for the rest of the contract after the 3rd year. Does the site you get your information for contracts show this or is this a common misconception.

    Edit: BTW overthecap.com is great. How did I not know about this site?
     
  45. damanref10

    damanref10 Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

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    No problem man, and I appreciate the banter (and Sobe's) because obviously not everything I understand through the cap is understood correctly, so if you see a discrepancy, please dont hesitate to call me out on it and we'll try and find out if it's correct or not.

    The presiding logic is that if we survive 3 years through most of these contracts... we should get through the woods, however... think about it this way, if we lose this year, and Ireland gets fired... the team goes into potentially a "full rebuilding mode" depending on the vision of the new GM.... soooo new GM takes over with a 3 year plan in place that wasnt his... yet he cant do much because for 2 more years there are serious consequences.

    Thats the irony of this whole situation. If we win... great. If we lose and Jeff gets canned.... why does he care how bad the contracts are... its not his mess to clean up.

    And overthecap is a phenomenal resource. Jason, the guy who runs it, started off with NYjetscap.com and then recently launched overthecap... its great. The reality of most NFL extensions with good players is that they arent set up to last the full 5 years or whatever, but it creates flexibility by apportioning giant signing bonus's across more years, so it lowers the hit by each year... however, lets say we give Branden Albert a 5 year deal... who has an injury history.. or Mike Wallace who lets say doesnt become an elite receiver like we hope (and paid him to be)... or ellerbe and wheeler turn out to be serious downgrades in LB.... now you have to make cuts, on giant deals... and assuming that happens... it probably didnt take until year 3 to figure it out...

    Either way, the possibility of problems exists.. but right now its all "what if" scenarios.... question is... which ones are more likely than others... and not to be the pessimist, but betting on the team to "finally" win this year... although more likely than past years... is still highly questionable
     
  46. PlexGod

    PlexGod Starter

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    Thank you... i posted this in a thread like 2-3 weeks ago for all those people that think we r going to be in cap hell next year. With 2-3 cuts we could have 35-40 mil next year with having to resign 3-4 key guys only. Really young team with money.
     
  47. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Y
    You've done a great job here of explaining everything with a lot of logic behind it. Anyone who doesn't get what you're saying is living in fantasy land. I think that taking on another big contract is a big mistake. Also, what are the odds that every single guy we got this year in free agency will work out for us? We'd be going from most free agents not working out for us in the last 5 years to all of a sudden hiting on all of them. My point is that there's a good chance that at least 1 or 2(hoping I'm wrong) will not work out for us and will need to be replace next off season. You need to have a cushion or you're asking for trouble. I'd just draft an OT and go with that.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  48. matt11390

    matt11390 Starter

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    I see us resigning Jones, Keller, and perhaps Clemons depending on what kind of season he has. Starks is approaching that age that Ireland lets go and he will command some money. Soliai will leave as a FA, he is more of a NT in a 3-4 anyway. Incognito will leave as well. Martin and Odrick could be our starting DT's next year. I think Jerry will leave as well. That's a start.
     
  49. gregp65

    gregp65 Central Illinois

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    Haven't seen this yet....Dolphins take a kicker with one of the 7th round picks and cut Carpenter. Would this not help the cap as well?
     
  50. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Jason does a great job. Glad he went to a different site name, told him it was tuff to keep clicking on to a Jets site for Dolphin info. LOL

    http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/mia/

    Here's a good site for Phins contract info breakdowns.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I somewhat disagree on the cap hell potential with the escalating contracts. A closer look at some of those contracts, with only guaranteed money included. The rest is meaningless IF we need to make changes.

    Wheeler's deal is 5 years, with $13M guaranteed. His salary this year is $1M, next year $5M, and both guaranteed. His signing bonus of $7M, pro-rated over the 5 year term, is a cap cost of $1.4 per year. If he did not work out, after 2 years we would be hit with a $4.2M cap hit.

    Ellerbe's deal is 4 years, with $14M guaranteed. His salary this year is $1M, next year is $6M, and both are guaranteed. His signing bonus of $7M, pro-rated over the 4 year term, is a cap cost of $1.75M per year. If he did not work out, after 2 years we would be hit with a $3.5M cap hit.

    Wallace's deal is 5 years, wit $30M guaranteed. His salary this year is $1M, next year $15M (both guaranteed), and $3M of his $9.85 salary is also guaranteed. His signing bonus of $11M, pro-rated over the 5 year term, is a cap cost of $2.2M per year. If he did not work out, after 2 years, we would be hit with a $6.6M cap hit.

    No way we give up on any of the above for at least 2 years, and I do not see the ptential cap hell if we did. IMO, we will re-do the Wallace deal to defer around $5M to down the line. It's not a hard thing to do. We could add the guaranteed money to future years, while increasing it some and/or re-do the signing bonus.

    We don't have many "must keep" stars here. Starks, Soliai, Grimes, Keller, Cog, Clemons, Marshall, Patterson, Bess, and Carp, who cost around $45M this year, are all expendable if need be, and they don't play well.

    I am really hoping to have a cap problem a few years from now with Tannehill but, until then, no worries.
     

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