Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by oasis, Mar 5, 2013.
Lots of active discussion on Hartline obviously...just wanted to put it in poll format.
so wheres the poll? :lol:
Not at the reported 6mil a year. I don't think that 1 td is deserving of 6 mil
I dunno if he deserves to get the same amount of money as boldin and roddy white. Way too much for a hartline. I think we have too much money in the wrong hands with this character Ireland.
Whats 1 million in that 5-6 million when he already has very good chemistry with Tannehill, still young and they always say that receiver is one of the hardest positions to learn, going into his 5th season everything should click with a deep threat.
Yes..but too much money that can be used for better players for this team..1000 yards isn't that hard to get no more..one td thats stupid..how can't you break free for a td..break a tackle run a stop and go ..one td?
4-5 million would be great.
Really surprised to see people clicking the $5-$7 million range. onder:
First of all I live in Atlanta and Roddy White is getting a big bump from the Falcons.
Next I think Hartline had a good year last year and is young and will get better.
If we sign a free agent he will be great as a second option.
Lastly, and very important, I think Hartline and Tanny have developed a great chemistry together.
They seem to be on the same page which is very important with a QB/WR combination.
YES. I don't agree with the $ either but that is the price of FA... Tannehill's cap # is less than 2 million next year so quit your bitching
Personally I'm in the camp of not really wanting Hartline back unless it's at a significant/outrageous discount. It's not to say that I don't value what he brings to this offense and team - it's just there are much, much cheaper ways to get the production he'll provide at the #2 spot. Assuming a Wallace or Jennings signing, I'd put Hartline's salary towards a FA CB and draft a rookie WR in rounds 2-3 to be the #2 WR.
For example, how does Wallace/Bailey and say, Greg Toler look for the same price as Wallace/Hartline.
Unfortunately Hartline just isn't a smart use of cap space for me.
4-4.5 mil max
PS the guy did'nt step on the practice field from Week 17 2011 season (I guess technically the calender year was 2012) until the last week of training camp in late August2012
I'd want him back for around $4 mil/per.
5 million is the max I would spend.
I'm curious for those of you that specifically don't like the signing @ that price. What options IYO do you ABSOLUTELY KNOW/THINK will be/or is available out there that are either or both
1) Comparable to
2) Better than Hartline
at a cheaper price?
Second question is this: Most seem to agree that Hartline is/was worth about 4 million at the most! Does the additional 2mill that he got drastically change or restrict any other FA moves that we could make?
4 years for $18MM would work for me.
Disappointment is not nearly strong enough word -- if they pay Hartline anywhere NEAR 6 mill per season.
Flushing good WR money down the toilet.
Tells me all I need to know about Ireland. And the doom of this team.
Depends on the master plan. What he did last year with the nightmare offseason and a rookie QB is pretty impressive.
Like I said above, I believe you could get a 700-800/3TD performance out of a rookie you draft this year in round 2-3. That's probably what you will get out of Hartline if he's getting a #2's worth of targets. For me it's not really about the extra 1-2M for Hartline, it's the totality of his contract and what I expect to get from him in the #2 spot.
The difference is that the rookie probably wouldn't be able to slide into the #1 spot quite as well as Hartline should your #1 go down, at least not in his rookie season.
To me, the re-signing of Hartline is an indication of one of two things, and possibly both:
1) Ireland believes there is a good chance he does NOT end up with Jennings or Wallace and therefore needs Hartline to serve as the #1 for a short period while a highly-drafted rook (e.g. Patterson or Allen) learns the ropes
2) Ireland intends to move/replace Bess
Sign Wallace or Jennings. Not going to be cheap but gives us a proven difference maker that can score TD's.
Use the 6 million you didn't invest in Hartline and instead invest in another position in free agency like TE, DB or OT.
Draft at least 2 WRs in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Bailey is my personal favorite, but insert your favorite WRs here.
Paying inflated market prices for average WRs is a recipe for failure. Unfortunately that's something this front office has a history of doing (Ernest Wilford says hi).
Keep the signing bonus about 4M and keep this years cap low. Make a 3 yr contract and back load it some to make him earn the bigger payday or release with low cap hit.
I'd say the # of rookie receivers who come in and put up 800 yds and 3 TDs who are drafted in the 2-3rd round are pretty rare. There are a lot of names floating around..but lets be honest most of them won't pan out. That's just the nature of the draft
Why not just draft Ryan Swope? He has chemistry with Tannehill. I personally think he will be better then Hartline.
The only thing that really matters is the guaranteed money. As long as that's not crazy than he's worth it. He did miss all of training camp last year and had a productive year. He also has chemistry with Tannehill.
Let's start with the first statement "I believe you could get!" I don't think anyone here doubts you can get 700/800/3TD from Hartline next season. Will you get that from a rookie? I haven't looked at the stats but I remember pointing to alot of rookies don't typically generate those numbers.
I'm not sure I understand your logic of thinking because of the signing amount Ireland believes he MAY NOT end up with Jennings or Wallace? If anything I see it as the Dolphins trying to preserve what they feel is a positive relationship between Hartline/Tannehill which I'm guessing they feel maximizes our offense next season at one of the receiver positions.
Now I do agree with the Bess statement! In an ideal world I can see them shipping off Bess with a strong preference for someone like Swope... Ideally I think the want a lineup that looks something like this
Wallace or Jennings(likely), Swope, Hartline!
I understand only touchdowns win games, but Brian is a fine receiver that's important for Dolphins future.
If best #1 WR is asking for 14 millions/season, a 6 million per season looks fair for one of the best #2 WR of the league.
If I were on Jeff Ireland's shoes, I would work a 5 million/season contract including an incentive clause of $100,000/TD.
So I can interpret your thought process based on what your wrote as
1) Those drafted receivers ARE going to give you atleast the same production that Hartline would. BTW, the stats that I've looked at says that's not true..BUT I could be wrong
2) Overall without your most productive receiver ast season(Hartline) and literally except for maybe Bess and Matthews...3 new players(Wallace, 2 receivers)
WILL result in a better receiving offense than with Hartline?
---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------
What makes you think they're not going too?
Some drafts are stronger than others, so it depends.
The problem with this line of questioning is there's more than just 2013. Yes it might be difficult to get a 3rd rounder to outproduce Hartline in 2013, but in 2014-2016 those WRs you drafted will be producing much more for you, in their athletic prime and at a dirt cheap price. Several will far outproduce Hartline and they'll do so for 5 million less per year.
I don't trust Ireland to find the right WRs, so I understand anyone with that point of view. But when you're wanting known quantities of expensive mediocrity because you suspect you'll get nada from the WRs your GM picks in a WR rich draft, that's a sad state of the union. It's also a recipe for passing on the next Mike Wallace, Brandon Marshall, Steve Smith, etc because you've already "solved" your #2 WR spot with Hartline.
Was typing a similar response to another poster, but you said better than I was going to.
Don't lie yourself!
Man if you think Swope is Hartline's replacement, you're clueless. Ryan Swope was a slot receiver at Texas A&M, not an outside receiver.
Also being realistic, there are few NCAA players that can have instant success at NFL. Of course that Swope's speedy and has great hands but in order to be productive at pro-level he could require the regular 2-3 seasons period of maturing of NFL WR.
I fear Ireland has the same narrow mindset. You're only considering the WR position in 2013, without considering 2014+ and the ability to spend that Hartline money on other positions in 2013 that make the overall team better.
Would be a solid unit especially if we up grade the TE position as well.
Meet me half way.
I think you need to gamble and trust young talent, but they can't be your only option to build a competitive roster. In my mind a third round pick should be ready to produce at his second year and prove he's worth of starting in his third season, so if Ireland gives Hartline a long term contract, I hope it includes an easy exit if some of our developing projects at WR pans out and beats him in a year or two.
Fine, Lets play your game. Let's make a list of receivers for whatever 3-4 years time period you want. It will compare How much more productive they've gotten from the time they were drafted(Your argument) compared to whether they are still in the league or aren't more productive( My stance or Narrow mind-set as you call it). What do you think we will find?
Yes he is a keeper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd be happy even if the real cap hit is 6 million per year. From where were are now, I can see these upcoming FA #'s are going to get really silly.
With 2..count them 2....***ent wide-outs that are on everyones list....we may not even be in the running. I'm glad we have Hartline done. Now, If we can get one of the big 2 fine !...If not, let's draft our asses off.
You're still not playing my game because you're still only talking about the WR position and ignoring the other positions we could strengthen. You're just talking about Hartline for 6 mil+ versus unknown rookie WR for dirt cheap but might bust, but ignoring the position(s) I'd strengthen with the 6 million you put into your 1 TD per year WR.
I'm saying 2 high draft pick WRs like Patterson/Allen and Bailey plus using that 6 million to upgrade at DB, OT or TE is better than spending 6 million #2 guy, not strengthening one of those other weaknesses, having less money in 2014-2016 and likely choosing 1 less WR than we would have otherwise, thus reducing our chances of finding a good one.
Who are the top 2 WR targets in free agency that are about to land 10+ million per year contracts after producing gobs of TDs and super bowl victories for their teams? The 52nd pick in the 2006 draft and the 84th pick in the 2009 draft. Guys teams that already had a "solid #2" probably passed on.
Six million a year for a decent wr with no big play ability is a waste of resources
I can't argue against that. He's a AVG #2 WR at best. He's not a #1 WR that's for sure.
The only thing I can think they are thinking is they think the signing of Jennings or Wallace will make Hartline look better.
That line of thinking to me would be a mistake, Brandon Marshall didnt make him look any better and he is as good as either player.
I remember when Marino eclipsed the 5 mill. per year salary. What do you think he'd be getting now? Still all in all I want Hartline on the team.
So...We can't strengthen other positions now because we just paid Hartline? You do realize we have more money left right? and if need be we can free up some more?
Nice straw man.
Now you know what your own Medicine taste like.....
Please show me where I presented a straw man here.
Bess is making about 2.5 mil..................so how much over that does Hartline deserve ??