"Elite" Players on Fins and Currently in Division | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

"Elite" Players on Fins and Currently in Division

Vaark said:
Conceptually you're not wrong, but considering that "elitism" can be, and often is a transitive quality that does not endure, if you're using HOF credentials, it rightfully eliminates any player with exemplary performance of less than 6-8 years. So instead, perhaps include those who may presently qualify by playing at that high level for at least 3 years, who, if consistent another 3-5, would then qualify them for HOF consideration. :idk:
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I hear ya, although I think if you ask anyone other than a fan of an AFC East team, they would agree. Although it would be nice if this (2013 Fins) was the beginning of an ELITE Team!
 
Id define "elite" as someone who consistently, over the years, been the difference between a win or a loss or, for those that play less obvious roles, someone who has played at a extremely high level for their position.

For the Bills, the only player i might give that title to is Kyle Williams.
Guys that could earn it as soon as this coming season: Spiller, Byrd(who i apparently like more then most), Dareus, and Mario Williams.

For the Jets, id give it to Mangold and David Harris.
Those that could grab it this season and the next: Cromartie and Wilkerson.

Patriots: Brady, Logan Mankins, and Wilfork.
They have a few guys that i believe could grab it in a few seasons, but dont feel as strongly about for various reasons, such as Gronk(health), Hightower, and Chandler Jones.

Dolphins: Wake, Fields, and Starks.
Cusp: Pouncey, Wallace, Grimes, and Keller.

Wake and Fields should be obvious, so moving on. Starks because hes was absolutely dominate during the '09 season. He won games for us that year. While he certainly peaked that season, his play hasnt diminished much and hes performed at a consistently high level. If teams dont account for him while game planning, i know he will wreck them on sunday.

Why not Pouncey in the "elite" catagory? Simply due to his relative inexperience. If im holding off credit to Wilkerson, i should hold it off for Pouncey. I have no doubt i'll bump him up after the season, barring an injury.
Wallace is inconsistent but has put up huge numbers. I want to see more on a regular basis from him before bumping him up. Holmes has made some huge plays for the Jets and Steelers, but im not putting him on the list for reasons similar to Wallace.
Grimes is obvious. Hes played at a high level for years. Show hes recovered from his injury and i'll throw him up there.
Keller was held back by Sanchez. If he shows he can consistently make plays with a real quarterback, i'll happily add him in, but would probably wait 2 seasons.
 
Spesh said:
Id define "elite" as someone who consistently, over the years, been the difference between a win or a loss or, for those that play less obvious roles, someone who has played at a extremely high level for their position.

For the Bills, the only player i might give that title to is Kyle Williams.
Guys that could earn it as soon as this coming season: Spiller, Byrd(who i apparently like more then most), Dareus, and Mario Williams.

For the Jets, id give it to Mangold and David Harris.
Those that could grab it this season and the next: Cromartie and Wilkerson.

Patriots: Brady, Logan Mankins, and Wilfork.
They have a few guys that i believe could grab it in a few seasons, but dont feel as strongly about for various reasons, such as Gronk(health), Hightower, and Chandler Jones.

Dolphins: Wake, Fields, and Starks.
Cusp: Pouncey, Wallace, Grimes, and Keller.

Wake and Fields should be obvious, so moving on. Starks because hes was absolutely dominate during the '09 season. He won games for us that year. While he certainly peaked that season, his play hasnt diminished much and hes performed at a consistently high level. If teams dont account for him while game planning, i know he will wreck them on sunday.

Why not Pouncey in the "elite" catagory? Simply due to his relative inexperience. If im holding off credit to Wilkerson, i should hold it off for Pouncey. I have no doubt i'll bump him up after the season, barring an injury.
Wallace is inconsistent but has put up huge numbers. I want to see more on a regular basis from him before bumping him up. Holmes has made some huge plays for the Jets and Steelers, but im not putting him on the list for reasons similar to Wallace.
Grimes is obvious. Hes played at a high level for years. Show hes recovered from his injury and i'll throw him up there.
Keller was held back by Sanchez. If he shows he can consistently make plays with a real quarterback, i'll happily add him in, but would probably wait 2 seasons.
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Jones is a better S than Byrd, why isn't he on the cusp on your list for Miami?
 
Vaark said:
As we've seen from some past "debates", the definition of elite is subjective - perhaps to the point of being downright nebulous or self-serving.

However for the purpose of this discussion, I'm electing to define an "elite player" as one who has consistently at least over the last 3 years performed at or near the top of his position (ranging top 3-5 in the league over that time). This is as much based on the eye test in perspective as on pure fantasy numbers in a vacuum. Given this admitedly also subjective parameter, here's what I've come up with:

Fins: presently 2 elite players
Fins 2 of 6 divisional "elite" players:
Fields and Wake
with Pouncy on the cusp

Pats: presently 2 elite players
Brady (of course) and Wilfork
with Gronk (if he can stay healthy) and Mayo on the cusp

Bills:
Mario Williams
with Dareus and Spiller in the wings

Jest:
Mangold (alone with the departure of Revis)
with Cromartie on the cusp.

Your thoughts?
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Don't forget about Jones on that cusp list.

Tannehill soon to follow :-)

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2
 
Phinatic8u said:
Jones is a better S than Byrd, why isn't he on the cusp on your list for Miami?
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Experience, the same reason i "knocked" Pouncey and kept Tannehill off the list, despite having a very high opinion of them. Jones has only been a starter for 1 year, compared to Bryd's 4(well, sort of 4, if i recall correctly he took over midway through his rookie year). Id like to see more from him. I doubt hes a one year wonder, but stranger things have happened. I know Bryd can play.

In hindsight i probably shouldnt have included Bryd. Not that i dont think hes on the cusp, but its looking more and more like he and the Bills are going to go through a nasty divorce. They apparently wont even speak to him about an extension, which could be a distraction this season.
 
moogyman said:
Care to explain as to why you think Jones is better?
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Better in run support and coverage.

Byrd gets the picks, but that shouldn't over shadow is ehh run support.

---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------
Oronde said:
Because he's a Dolphin and the other guy isn't?
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Not at all actually, Jones a more complete S, there's no holes in his game.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------
Spesh said:
Experience, the same reason i "knocked" Pouncey and kept Tannehill off the list, despite having a very high opinion of them. Jones has only been a starter for 1 year, compared to Bryd's 4(well, sort of 4, if i recall correctly he took over midway through his rookie year). Id like to see more from him. I doubt hes a one year wonder, but stranger things have happened. I know Bryd can play.

In hindsight i probably shouldnt have included Bryd. Not that i dont think hes on the cusp, but its looking more and more like he and the Bills are going to go through a nasty divorce. They apparently wont even speak to him about an extension, which could be a distraction this season.
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I can agree with that, but Jones first year IMO is better than, as far as a complete S package, was better than any year Bryd has.
 
uk_dolfan said:
Yea Jones needs another year of production

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------



Cam Wake wouldnt agree.
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really? wake was young and killing it in the CFL. and he's killed it since his first year with us, (when JP would let him on the field) so I don't really think he disagrees, I think he'd tell you he was good from day one, elite from year two, and it wasn't his fault the league looked him over.
 
boozeking25 said:
I don't quite understand that logic. In the last 3 years, no one in the league has more receiving TDs than Gronk considering he's missed time due to injury. I can see if he produced bad numbers, but even with his injury he still outperformed the rest of the league. No way is he not elite.
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His body of work is lacking in order to claim he is "elite". The word elite is used way to often these days to describe players. Let's rewind for a history example.........say to the class of 1983, Elway, Blackledge, Kelly, Eason, O’Brien and Marino all taken in the first.

In the 2nd year of their careers Marino clearly had the best year but Eason, O'Brien and Kelly (different league) all out played Elway, only Blackledge was a bust. By their 5th year in the league Marino and Elway had distance themselves substantially over the rest with only Kelly coming close to the same level and Eason, O'Brien and Blackledge were all meh.

So while players might have "elite" years to be truly "elite" you have to stand the test of time and there was only two elite QB from the 1983 class and they were Marino and Elway.
 
boozeking25 said:
I don't quite understand that logic. In the last 3 years, no one in the league has more receiving TDs than Gronk considering he's missed time due to injury. I can see if he produced bad numbers, but even with his injury he still outperformed the rest of the league. No way is he not elite.
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My logic is that while there's no question he's had elite production no matter how many games he's started, imagine his production had he stayed healthy. A healthy Gronk is elite, while IMO an injury-plagued Gronk not only removes that production from the field but is a detriment to the team in trying to replace his productivity. So while there's definitely the talent, he has not proven his durability as of yet -which puts him on the cusp until he can cobble a few years straight of starting at least 14 games (not 11). :up:

 
Vaark said:
As we've seen from some past "debates", the definition of elite is subjective - perhaps to the point of being downright nebulous or self-serving.

However for the purpose of this discussion, I'm electing to define an "elite player" as one who has consistently at least over the last 3 years performed at or near the top of his position (ranging top 3-5 in the league over that time). This is as much based on the eye test in perspective as on pure fantasy numbers in a vacuum. Given this admitedly also subjective parameter, here's what I've come up with:

Fins: presently 2 elite players
Fins 2 of 6 divisional "elite" players:
Fields and Wake
with Pouncy on the cusp

Pats: presently 2 elite players
Brady (of course) and Wilfork
with Gronk (if he can stay healthy) and Mayo on the cusp

Bills:
Mario Williams
with Dareus and Spiller in the wings

Jest:
Mangold (alone with the departure of Revis)
with Cromartie on the cusp.

Your thoughts?
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I would add Pouncey to elite along with Wake, and I guess ya gotta add in Fields. I would put Jones on the cusp with only one VG year. That's about it, and why we are still looking for a playoff win in over 10 years.
 
NY8123 said:
His body of work is lacking in order to claim he is "elite". The word elite is used way to often these days to describe players. Let's rewind for a history example.........say to the class of 1983, Elway, Blackledge, Kelly, Eason, O’Brien and Marino all taken in the first.

In the 2nd year of their careers Marino clearly had the best year but Eason, O'Brien and Kelly (different league) all out played Elway, only Blackledge was a bust. By their 5th year in the league Marino and Elway had distance themselves substantially over the rest with only Kelly coming close to the same level and Eason, O'Brien and Blackledge were all meh.

So while players might have "elite" years to be truly "elite" you have to stand the test of time and there was only two elite QB from the 1983 class and they were Marino and Elway.
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This begs two questions:

1. Does this automatically disqualify young players from being elite?

2. Jim Kelly, a Hall of Famer, isn't elite?
 
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